Never ever buy cheap tools

Im posting this email that i sent to Bosch in order to let everyone know never ever buy cheap tools. In support of Bosch, my favorite tool maker i will say that the Bosch professional (Blue) model GCM 12 GDL should have been my choice. Its 3 times the money but well worth it in the long run.

I have been a believer in Bosch tools since the coming of the Bosch d handle Jig saw. That is for over 30 years. I have and still do believe in Bosch products. Im sad to say this is not a thank you note. Nor is it a congratulation statement. I have a Bosch PCM 1800 sd trim saw. It has caused me to believe that someone in the company is apparently bent on discrediting this old and innovative company. Why else would anyone let a product such as this be marketed by the worlds greatest maker of power tools? Whats wrong with it you ask?? Well where do i start. I could just say its a peace of junk unworthy of the Bosch signature But that wouldn't help to fix it much. So here you go..First of all The method of setting zero or any degree of angle is what i call a soft stop. A guess at best.Not even remotely accurate.Secondly, The slide guide arm is to sloppy. I had to add washers to prevent it from bending and causing the the cam to jam up and the arm that the cam rides on is way to soft and easily bent. Add to that the soft cast metal little bit that holds it in place is fragile and easily broken off. Thirdly, The cheap plastic handle Or clamping lever and bushing inside it didn't last a week. I used it to change the bevel once. After that it simply would not work. It would just spin.. Making the saw useless as a compound miter saw. I am a carpenter of over 50 years, so i have altered the saw to make it work. Not a likely thing your average home owner would think to do.They would simply tell everyone what a peace of junk Bosch sold them. I want you to know that i own a cabinet shop filled with Bosch tools. I don't mind telling you i don't like my mates seeing this patched up Bosch saw in my shop.They all know that i strongly support Bosch products. I always will ! But when i see junk like this being marketed by the greatest Innovator and manufacturer of products in the world. It makes me angry. This saw should never have passed the test to be released as a Bosch product.


Sincerely concerned Charles Todd


Having said all that i dont really feel any better. I don't like sending grumpy emails. But if it helps to let them know what a poor excuse it is for a trim saw...Maybe its all worth it.:~

Have they responded?

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Originally Posted by

Have they responded?

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:no: Unfortunately no . But that matters little to me. The message was because i care about Bosch. Its a shame they don't seem too.

Probably just hit the delete button. Once a condescending silly statement like "It has caused me to believe that someone in the company is apparently bent on discrediting this old and innovative company" they couldn't be bothered as any response would most probably lead to more.

:)

My dear friends and fellow carpenters. I must say that i hardly think i was exercising an attitude of patronizing superiority in my above statement regarding the Bosch miter saw. I was sincere when i said "I am and always will be a supporter of Bosch tools". If it means that by telling them the truth about how i feel is condescending. Then so be it. And to be honest, I don't want or need a response from them. Thank you for your comment.

It was just that part that they would not respond to. Because it was a silly statement and if you work in customer service these are red flags. They ask themselves "where is this going to go?"

So they err on the side of caution and say nothing.

Your observations were quite accurate. Sadly lost as they would have just deleted them.

Keep in mind I only said that comment was silly and condescending.

And nowhere did I suggest you had displayed an "attitude of patronizing superiority"

cheers

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Originally Posted by Charlee43

:no: Unfortunately no . But that matters little to me. The message was because i care about Bosch. Its a shame they don't seem too.

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As a Bosch lover I would like to see you post it to one of their social media sites and see what response you get

https://www.facebook.com/BoschAustralia

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Originally Posted by Damienol

As a Bosch lover I would like to see you post it to one of their social media sites and see what response you get

https://www.facebook.com/BoschAustralia

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Even with what you have said Charlee, I think it's a little remiss of Bosch not to at least acknowledge your email as it's not just a whinge letter but constructive criticism from a faithful user. Cheers, crowie.

G'day Dazzler, Please don't think i was at all offended by your response my friend. I appreciate any response from a seasoned member such as yourself. And i thank you for that. I must say however that according to our beloved Websters dictionary, here is the following regarding the word condescending: Exhibiting an attitude of superiority; Patronizing. I assure most sincerely i mean no insult nor am i offended in any way by your reply. I admire boldness and honesty above all else. I see that in the wisdom and truth in what you say.

:U:2tsup:

Thank you Damienol for your informative post sharing the Bosch address. I will indeed post a copy of that email on that site. Thanks again for your help.:2tsup:

G'day Crowie I want to thank you for re posting Damienol's message. It was important that i didn't miss that. I am going to that site to place my email as soon as i leave here. Thanks again.:)

I have posted the email on the site you suggested Demienol my friend, along with these three pictures depicting the areas of concern. I have also posted them here so you can also see the thing that had to be dealt with in order to make the saw operable. Again, this is not something your average homeowner would consider doing. In all likelihood he would therefore be at a loss for his investment in this saw. Being a serious supporter of Bosch products i find this disturbing and somewhat of a worry.


Attachment 307838Attachment 307839Attachment 307840

I'm afraid that these days you get what you pay for, I learnt a long long time ago that the purchase of Handyman quality tools is a false economy

My first mitre saw was a sub $50 saw from Bunnings. Turn it on once and returned for a Makita weekend warrior saw, thought it was a good saw back then.


Over the years I have learnt my lesson never ever buy cheap tools, if you are to buy something, buy once and let it be.

Recently I had to remove a 500kg mortiser off its pallet, I can either spend $250 on renting a proper crane for a day, buy a cheap knockoff engine crane for $300 or buy a properly made in Spain engine crane for $1400. I endup buying the Spanish crane. The cost of the mortiser was $15k NZD, lifting it with a $300 crane and hoping everything will go smoothly is simply nothing but a foolish thought.

sometimes I do still fall in the trap though....

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Originally Posted by Charlee43

Im posting this email that i sent to Bosch in order to let everyone know never ever buy cheap tools. In support of Bosch, my favorite tool maker i will say that the Bosch professional (Blue) model GCM 12 GDL should have been my choice. Its 3 times the money but well worth it in the long run.

I have been a believer in Bosch tools since the coming of the Bosch d handle Jig saw. That is for over 30 years. I have and still do believe in Bosch products. Im sad to say this is not a thank you note. Nor is it a congratulation statement. I have a Bosch PCM 1800 sd trim saw. It has caused me to believe that someone in the company is apparently bent on discrediting this old and innovative company. Why else would anyone let a product such as this be marketed by the worlds greatest maker of power tools? Whats wrong with it you ask?? Well where do i start. I could just say its a peace of junk unworthy of the Bosch signature But that wouldn't help to fix it much. So here you go..First of all The method of setting zero or any degree of angle is what i call a soft stop. A guess at best.Not even remotely accurate.Secondly, The slide guide arm is to sloppy. I had to add washers to prevent it from bending and causing the the cam to jam up and the arm that the cam rides on is way to soft and easily bent. Add to that the soft cast metal little bit that holds it in place is fragile and easily broken off. Thirdly, The cheap plastic handle Or clamping lever and bushing inside it didn't last a week. I used it to change the bevel once. After that it simply would not work. It would just spin.. Making the saw useless as a compound miter saw. I am a carpenter of over 50 years, so i have altered the saw to make it work. Not a likely thing your average home owner would think to do.They would simply tell everyone what a peace of junk Bosch sold them. I want you to know that i own a cabinet shop filled with Bosch tools. I don't mind telling you i don't like my mates seeing this patched up Bosch saw in my shop.They all know that i strongly support Bosch products. I always will ! But when i see junk like this being marketed by the greatest Innovator and manufacturer of products in the world. It makes me angry. This saw should never have passed the test to be released as a Bosch product.


Sincerely concerned Charles Todd


Having said all that i dont really feel any better. I don't like sending grumpy emails. But if it helps to let them know what a poor excuse it is for a trim saw...Maybe its all worth it.:~

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I must admit that in my opinion something is definitely wrong with Bosch Blue. I was always a big fan of Bosch cordless tools, however for the past couple of years I've noticed that some of Bosch tools became inferior to compare to DeWalt. This is obviously very personal opinion.
As an example I can say that Bosch cordless saw is not as good as Dewalt one, I gave the Bosch one a wrest couple of months ago, got Dewalt instead, same applies for Cordless reciprocating saw and multitool. Has anyone tried to hold Bosch multitool as appose to DeWalt one?
All tools that I have mentioned have exactly the same problem: they not user friendly. what i mean is that all of them designed for the person with a huge hands. Unfortunately my hands are medium size, so using these tools was almost a torture for me. As a result, I convert to DeWalt, at least 50%.

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Originally Posted by entstudio

I must admit that in my opinion something is definitely wrong with Bosch Blue. I was always a big fan of Bosch cordless tools, however for the past couple of years I've noticed that some of Bosch tools became inferior to compare to DeWalt. This is obviously very personal opinion.
As an example I can say that Bosch cordless saw is not as good as Dewalt one, I gave the Bosch one a wrest couple of months ago, got Dewalt instead, same applies for Cordless reciprocating saw and multitool. Has anyone tried to hold Bosch multitool as appose to DeWalt one?
All tools that I have mentioned have exactly the same problem: they not user friendly. what i mean is that all of them designed for the person with a huge hands. Unfortunately my hands are medium size, so using these tools was almost a torture for me. As a result, I convert to DeWalt, at least 50%.

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Yes, I have to agree with the concerns about Bosch tools and the sentiment that it is wise to buy the best tools that one can afford. At one time I only purchased Bosch brand hand tools and found both their blue and the cheaper green tools excellent for my hobbyist use. I still find occasional use for the green jigsaw that I purchased perhaps 15 years ago and it has never failed me. However, a series of failures from a pressure washer, a bench saw and a battery operated staple gun have put me off them. I must say though that my Blue Bosch 150 random orbital sander is a great machine.

I have found Milwaukee battery powered tools to be much more powerful and reliable. I have not tried DeWalt so cannot comment on them. For larger gear I have bought Felder-Hammer and find its quality, accuracy and repeatability a joy.

The last time I fell off the path to tool happiness was with a Swarts sliding mitre saw (my posts about that debacle are probably still on the forums) and it sits in its box in storage. Never again.

I have 3 of the 10.8v Bosch Blue Multitools; all setup for different uses and have no issues with them.
I also have the 10.8v Bosch Blue Impact Driver & Drill Driver and have no issues with them either.
On the Bosch Blue front I have a corded 7" Circular saw, 2 x Impact Drills, 2 x Demolition Drills, 10" Contractors Saw Table plus 10" Slide Compound bevel/mitre saw plus a few of the early Bosch Green Made in Switzerland tools and all preform well.
All that being said I do have a good set of M18 Milwaukee tools for heavier work away from power.
Some of my older tools that were made in Japan and Germany are still going strong but they cost a fortune compared to my wage when I bought them so I'd expect them to last.
All that said, I support it's personal preference and what works for you.
Cheers, crowie

PS - It's always worthwhile keeping an eye out for the older name brand tools originally made in there country of origin; IMHO, even secondhand, they are as good if not better than some of the new stuff.....

Among the hand tools, I'm convinced that you get what you pay for.
That's not to say that the occassional gamble with a cheap tool reveals a winner.
At the same time, I think it's a little easier to figure out the manufacturing source
than it is for power tools.
I can think of 5 brands of drill presses (aka pillar drills) which have identical guts and some frills altered.
Smells like cheap soya sauce to me.

So far from my limited experience with Blue bosch stuff, it's not as good as they try to make it out to be. I got a blue bosch corded jig saw and pretty disappointed in it. Yes it does cut stuff, but that's where it ends. I could never make a proper square cut with it. It's difficult to make precision cut with it. The blade ejection system doesn't work, requiring me to still pull the blade off with hand, contrary to their advertisement, the left and right distance is not symmetrical, which to me is really annoying when used against a fence, I'd have to make sure I go only in one direction. It is just a rough cutting tool for me. Their cordless drills have a lot of wobble and I'm glad I tested it at the store and finding out before (not) buying.

On the other side, why do buyers cry so much when the price for a good or excellent tool is higher than the price of garbage tools?

Most of the "brand" manufacturers have a strategy to offer a wide range of products with a wide range of price and capability.
Take just Bosch Blue, Makita and Dewalt, if you look at their Australian websites, they each offer over 20 models of 18V drills.
Even comparing models within a brand let alone across brands is very difficult.
The offer of "choice" is not for the benefit of the customer, it is designed to make profit.
What need is there for that many choices of drill?
Whilst there are valid variations on offer (drill/drivers, hammer, etc),you may also find:
- (A) a quality model with metal parts, proper bearings and brushless motor and a rugged case ($$$$$).
- (B) a cheap model with plastic parts, lesser bearings and brushed motor in a plain case ($$) .
- (C) a model that looks like the first drill with the parts of the second drill priced a bit less than the first one ($$$$).
So when I hear that a drill from brand X is much better than the drill from brand Y. Were they comparing "A to A" or "A to C"?
Most of the brands offer a quality model that will give years of service.
Choose wisely my friends.

PS. Bosch make some superb jigsaws but their full feature, top of the line model that wins all the UK reviews (GST 160) is not available in Australia.
Not sure why. The others available here are much cheaper and vary significantly in price and features.

That explains why it's so confusing. The Jigsaw I was referring to was GST 160. I bought it from Toolstop in the UK and had it shipped to Australia. It came with a UK plug and I just used a plug adapter. In my opinion, it's not a great jig saw - at all. I found another person detailing all the faults and selling his on Gumtree.

On paper this jigsaw is awesome, and that's why I got sucked in and bought it. It's Bosch's top of the line jig saw, after all.

I now just use it to cut but I know never to expect perfect vertical square when using it, contrary to their claim. It's just for a rough cut, not for anything that requires precision. But had I known, I would've just gotten a cheaper jig saw.

So anyway, I did not buy the cheapest tool. I thought I was buying the top of the line, but it was very disappointing. The moral of the story, for me, is that expensive doesn't always mean quality. Of course there is the possibility that it could be just me, or that I had a defective item. Oh well.

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Originally Posted by woodmp

So far from my limited experience with Blue bosch stuff, it's not as good as they try to make it out to be. I got a blue bosch corded jig saw and pretty disappointed in it. Yes it does cut stuff, but that's where it ends. I could never make a proper square cut with it. It's difficult to make precision cut with it. The blade ejection system doesn't work, requiring me to still pull the blade off with hand, contrary to their advertisement, the left and right distance is not symmetrical, which to me is really annoying when used against a fence, I'd have to make sure I go only in one direction. It is just a rough cutting tool for me. Their cordless drills have a lot of wobble and I'm glad I tested it at the store and finding out before (not) buying.

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Odd. I have just taken delivery of a Bosch GST 160 (had to have someone bring one over from Europe, why on earth do they not sell them here?) and I find it to be very precise.
I read several comments online where people said it doesn't spit the blades out as advertised, but mine spits it half way across the workbench. It's definitely a class act compared to my old green bow-handled Bosch jigsaw.

-P.

This has nothing to do directly with the quality or absence of quality of any particular tool, but you really do have to wonder.
They make a great jigsaw, the GST 160 (even if one person here has had a bad'un most people think it's pretty hot stuff). It's been out in Europe for years,looking at the German Bosch Professional site. And yet: we don't get it Down Under. What the Higgens? WHY?

There is the GOF 1600 router. Yes, we can buy that router here, at a HUGELY inflated price. Theoretically there is also a model GOM 1600 which comes with both a fixed and a plunge base, interchangeable. People in Europe have been howling for it for years - and Bosch did not bring it to Europe, lots of promises and no follow-through, only sold it in the US under a different model designation; if someone wanted a fixed base, they had to get one sent back from the US. We certainly can't buy the fixed base down here at all. Purely by accident the other day I found an outfit in Singapore that sells the combi machine very cheaply (I'd love one, but I don't have the use for it right now, so I will wait for a windfall).
But what do Bosch think they're doing?

People WILL start looking elsewhere. And don't even get me started on the extortionate pricing here. No, it's not the shipping; that argument's something that came out of the back end of a bull. I paid 208 Euro for the GST 160. If you want to buy the GST 140 here, you're looking at more than twice that, just under NZ$600. Shame. (as an aside, the 140 and the 160 sell at an almost identical price point in Continental Europe).

My only conclusion is that there are some people making marketing decisions at Bosch who, were you to look in one ear, you'd see the sun shining through from the other side.

(we also bought a Bosch washing machine a fair few years ago, discovered it was made in China to our horror and, right on the button, it started to rust and leak inside of a year; plastic buttons and levers breaking in a matter of weeks (!)(replaced under warranty though). Bosch apparently pulled their factory from China and moved it to Malaysia or Thailand, I don't remember which) but that's yet another aside. Too late. Replaced with a Miele made in Germany, that hasn't missed a beat.

It really is a shame when you get to watch a good company being run into the ground by idiots.:no:

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Originally Posted by P.W.H.

Odd. I have just taken delivery of a Bosch GST 160 (had to have someone bring one over from Europe, why on earth do they not sell them here?) and I find it to be very precise.
I read several comments online where people said it doesn't spit the blades out as advertised, but mine spits it half way across the workbench. It's definitely a class act compared to my old green bow-handled Bosch jigsaw.

-P.

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Mine doesn't spit the blade out either. More often than not I'd have to pull it out with a degree of force too. Every now and then it would fall out, I would not call it "ejected".

When I cut something with a clamped fence and try not to deviate from the fence by pushing the jigsaw against the fence steadily, the cut result is not perfectly 90º with obvious imperfections when checked with a square. It's as if the blade going down has a bit of deflection. This was cutting pine, not hardwood.

Maybe it's just me. I'll do some more cuts tomorrow and see. It would be nice if it's not the tool.

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Originally Posted by woodmp

That explains why it's so confusing. The Jigsaw I was referring to was GST 160. I bought it from Toolstop in the UK and had it shipped to Australia. It came with a UK plug and I just used a plug adapter. In my opinion, it's not a great jig saw - at all. I found another person detailing all the faults and selling his on Gumtree.

On paper this jigsaw is awesome, and that's why I got sucked in and bought it. It's Bosch's top of the line jig saw, after all.

I now just use it to cut but I know never to expect perfect vertical square when using it, contrary to their claim. It's just for a rough cut, not for anything that requires precision. But had I known, I would've just gotten a cheaper jig saw.

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what sort of blade are you using?

Hi Charles,I am in complete agreement with you,I had the misfortune to buy the same saw.
The electric blade brake,failed within a very short period of time,I also need to keep unplugged when not in use as something heats up in the handle !
It cannot be set accurately at any angle and is completely incapable of making accurate cuts.
Also to boot it is as noisy as hell just to top thing off.

A very emotive issue. It's like comparing health insurance(don't anybody run with that one please) where nothing is quite the same.

Hiroller covered much of what I am going to say, but these are some of the issues I see.

1. Most of the big manufacturers have multiple quality ranges. Bosch of course have the Blue and Green ranges, but multiple alternatives within those ranges. I still have a Makita catlogue from thirty years ago where they had handyman, professional and industrial ranges. The Makita range is still huge.

2. What are we using the tool for? Is it fair on the tool or should we have bought a better quality product? The answer here, to my mind, is "does it fit the intended use?" If it is not fit for the purpose, you have the right to return it and get your money back.

3. We can all find an instance of a tool failing (that's the exception proving the rule scenario). If this becomes a common occurrence it points to a poor build. I think this may be some thinking behind Charlee's original letter to Bosch.

4. If the Bosch upmarket range (I appreciate the original CMS was a Green version) is going downhill, that is a big disappointment for me as I have seen them as a very ethical company in the past with a very good product.

5. I was trying to remember which Bosch tools I have, as I am happy to purchase from almost any manufacturer according to the demands of the job.

I have a 12"SCMS (Blue) with which I am very pleased.

I have a jigsaw ( Blue torpedo style) that is a last century model, which is so so. However, I don't believe anybody makes a good jigsaw. That is at least partly because I ask them to cut 25mm (or thicker) hard, hardwoods rather than the 12mm ply for which they are designed. However, it is still going despite being horribly abused by me.

I just don't like jigsaws.

I have a 125mm angle grinder (Blue) which I bought recently specifically to grind back the weather boards on our old house. I fully expected it to expire unless I did first. I bought one of the cheaper blue models (800W and about $75 from memory) because I wanted a light weight grinder. The more powerful machines are heavier. I ran it many, many times for more than an hour without stopping. I stopped normally because it was too hot to hold and I was bugger*d. It hasn't missed a beat. I can't quite be as positive about me.

It had a single problem. I couldn't get into the corners easily because of the size of disc so I bought a 100mm grinder: This time is was a Bosch Green. Although I asked it to do similar work, it has not missed a beat either. I fully expected that it would not last the course either. Wrong again. I have still struggled (stripping multiple layers of paint from timber is an 'orrible job).

What I am getting at here, in my usual long winded fashion, is that with a big range of product, there may well be something that has got past the quality control.

But it shouldn't, and it is quite right to contact the manufacturer and point out the shortcomings as you see them. They, as a reputable company, should respond to the complainant and take action to correct a problem if necessary.

There is a downward spiral into oblivion awaiting the companies that ignore such warning signs.

Please let us know if the Bosch PR department responds.

Regards
Paul