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Hi guys
going to give french polishing a go and spotted this you tube vid. All the shellac french polish gurus out there is this the way to go?
The adding oil is interesting! Is this advised when using Ubuet hard shellac ? Or just cut with metho and start swirling?
French Polishing with Mitch Kohanek - YouTube
tips and comments?!
Hi MiloQuote:
Originally Posted by Milo
I just watched out of interest to observe this guys approach to French Polishing. From my understanding this in effect is true French Polishing, given the use of both the pumice dust to act as a grain filler in combination with shellac, while the use of oil similarly allows for the proper working of a surface.
While how I was taught some 20 years ago differs slightly in comparison, from my experience, the results as a rule differ probably only marginally, or at least depending on just how far one takes it when French Polishing.
Most people who attempt the use of shellac, are in effect either brushing it on or simply padding. It is the extra steps taken and application methods in terms of the strokes (circles, figure of 8 and or along the surface in parallel strokes) that can result in the highly polished surfaces one normally associates with a true French Polished piece.
As a rule, I don't normally go that far, (albeit, I do use both the stroke variation and with finer pieces/flat surfaces - especially table tops etc), will pad on shellac.
Where I differ is in the lack of use of pumice. As a rule I normally sand a piece (lightly with varying grade paper but working up to the finest grades (400-600 papers) and while lightly dusting off, I don't do this excessively as the dust similarly will act as my grain filler when in combination with the shellac. I know many purists are against sanding, but I think its applicability can/needs to be a merit based decision as to whether or not. It really depends on how fine a surface you start off with.
The other thing is that this guy simply continued to work the surface until he had built the level of shine he was after. Again how I do this differs, in that I normally apply 3-4 coats, then cut back with fine grade paper, then re-apply 3-4 coats, again cut back and re-apply another 3-4 coats of shellac before finally cutting back with 0000 grade steel wool, following the grain of the timber and then polishing by the application/rubbing off with a high quality bees wax polish. The level of coats of shellac will depend on the final shine I am trying to achieve, more coats equals a deeper lustre and therefore more brilliant shine, less coats and/or even applying wax polish with 0000 grade steel wool can result in a lower gloss finish.
I am always very conscious when restoring antiques to never sand hard or sometimes at all, because this can readily affect the finished patina achieved. I don't want to loose the bumps, scratches, and/or marks (stains etc), especially on a rustic piece. The only antique I have where I would otherwise differ here and choose to go the full French Polish technique is a superb cedar dining table that I have.
I have in the past used oil when applying shellac, though from memory normally have used olive oil, simply if for no other reason than its organic and I always have this at home. It does work, as shown on the youtube clip.
In terms of whether or not this would work with hard shellac, my best guess is I can't see any reason why not. I just havn't tried hard shellac to date, though will sometime.
Good luck with your project and certainly give it a go. The use of shellac is actually such a simple process, and with antiques and antique joinery is the correct finish to apply in my view. I won't use anything but this for such purposes.
G'day Milo - I haven't had a look at the video but from what I glean from the above post by Horsecroft88 it sounds like he's doing a proper, full french polish. I'll have a look if and when I get a chance and comment further here if needed
Using oil with the shellac allows you to work for longer periods on the piece as the oil acts as a lubricant and stops the shellac from sticking or pulling as you work.
You can use oil with Hard Shellac but my advice for the oil is to use our FoodSafe oil which is a high end heavy medical grade paraffin oil and works better than any other oil I have tried. The beauty of it apart from it's lubricating properties is that it is a non drying oil, so it won't skin on the surface if left overnight or for a week or even a month. Meaning you can pick up the job where you left off without a problem.
Hope this is of some help.
Cheers - Neil
PS If you don't already have one of these "A Polishers Handbook" then it might be worth investing in one as it will definitely help with any French Polishing you attempt and with many other finishes.
Had a quick look at the video. Interesting. He is using Mineral Oil which is the same as FoodSafe. I wouldn't be coating the piece with oil first at least not mineral oil. Like he said there are many ways of fernch polishing that is just one.
It is a reasonably short circuted version of French Polishing that appears to do the job well. If the oil he put on to start with is trapped under the polish then it will bring up a brighter shine quicker because mineral oil will refract the rays of the light back out of the timber making for a brighter shinier finish with more depth. My concern with that is will it effect the polish further down the track in month or years to come.
Linceed oil was traditionally used as a precoat for timber before shellacing, this was to bring out more warmth and grain in the timber. I don't pre oil.
I will see if I can find Mitch's teacher Frank Klausz's video on French Polishing which is hidden somewhere in a box after shifting to new factory. Pretty sure he didn't preoil with mineral oil but I could well be wrong.
You would definitely do well to check out the Polishers Handbook and check out the french polishing section.
Neil you may be the right person to ask this. Do you know of any courses that are run for French polishing? The ones i can find are for apprenticeships only. Not the public. Theres a small group of us in Canberra that get together that are eager to learn. We have the polishers handbook but learning from someone and being able to ask questions is invaluable :)
My two cents worth. When I was taught French polishing 30 years ago by an Austrian cabinet maker it included both the pumice and boiled linseed oil to keep going without sticking. However, I have worked with Australian antiques and have found that the pre-1850's pieces did not have any grain filler at all. Very late Victorian pieces used coloured chalk or whiting, and the dye was fugitive so they now show fine light dots in the pores. I much prefer no filler at all
In Australian conditions I do not use any oil. Oil pre-finishes make the French polish go cloudy and obscure the figure of the timber after some years, and oil lubrication can do the same.
I use button shellac (dissolved of course) very dilute, with a rubber and I take my time so that each layer dries before I put on the next one. That prevents sticking or ripping holes in your finish. It helps to have a couple of projects to polish at once as you can move from one to the other while each dries. Australian cedar is very open pored so you need lots of coats but Blackwood takes a great finish quickly so your choice of timber also affects your polishing.
Regards
David
Sorry delbs can't help with anyone in Canberra. Your best bet is to get onto your local CAE (Council of Adult Education), Continuing Education, or possibly U3A (university of the Third Age) and ask if they can find a tutor and are prepared to run a course. Maybe ask around the clubs or Men's Sheds. Gotta be someone somewhere up there prepared to help.Quote:
Originally Posted by delbs
Cheers - Neil :U
Awesome advice guys, I have an off cut of Blackwood that I have sanded to 320, I have some 400 and 600 grit discs coming tomorrow so ill have the piece and the off cut ready to go on Friday night. I'll try everything on the off cut first.
This wet cold weather is not doing me any favours!! :no: It freezing in the garage!
I have two small fan heaters that ill use in the workshop to heat things up to over 20 degrees.
Would this be recommended??
Traditional French Polishing books I have from the northern hemisphere say that is better to polish in warm conditions -- defined as 15 degrees celcius to 18 degrees!
Yes, for your own comfort heat your workshop. Polishing can be done over a wide range of temperatures. The warmer it is the faster it dries and the faster that you can re-coat. BUT don't rush it. Being over-eager can rip a hole in your work and then the only high quaity way to go is to scrub it all off with metho and start again. I have been there and don't want to be there again!
Personally, I dont like the oil to stop sticking idea. In the long-term it can cause milky finish, wheras a good polish has a wonderful, deep, transparent finish that enhances the timber figure. It takes work, sure, but the result is worth it.
BTW sand to 1000 or 1200 grit first and then dress the DRY shellac with 1200 every few coats. Good luck.
Wow! Now I can see why this FP is not that easy! I sanded the scrap to 1200 then applied a 1\8 shellac mix to raise the grain. The sanded lightly,dusted off and prepared the rubber as per the FP book I have ( cotton wool bedded in a cotton rubber).
My first two Coates where just with the grain making sure I had enough shellac on the rubber. It went on really nicely with no streaking etc. next I had a crack at circles and that's when I started to get drag marks:o!
So I stopped did a very light sand with 1200 and then had another go, this time adding a drop of olive oil to the rubber, it worked well and no dragging. I have applied about five layers and am taking a break.
Should I keep doing a light sand with 1200 grit wet and dry between every 5 Coates ? It does come up very nicely! :B
I remember seeing a Frank Klaus video where he was french polishing and was very surprised by the technique. Then I realised he was using something called qualasol (or similar) rather than shellac. I tried it and it is more forgiving than shellac but doesn't body up the same.
I was taught many years ago by an old cabinet-maker. The nearest description to the methods he showed me I found much later in a book on repairing antiques by John Rodd - it's well worth a read.
a couple of pics of my test piece, Shellac French Polishing, came up really nicley on the Tassie Blackwood. But its been bloody raining ever since!!! The glass arrived for the top, so now I am just waiting for a warm sunny weekend and I can Shellac the top.
Attachment 278099Attachment 278100Attachment 278101
Looks really nice Milo, and I must admit from past experience I have always found shellac polishing (not quite sure I would call it true FP), is that I have found it difficult to achieve such a finish with new Tas Oak, as opposed to old and previously painted and stripped Tas Oak.
So a question for those of you knowledgeable, and I suspect I may know the answer. As a rule I have never used finer papers than 400 grade when cutting back and with the final cut back have only used extra fine 0000 grade steel wool with wax on wax off application/buffing to finish what I am working on.
I know that with a true FP piece, the shine/perfection of the finish is so much greater than what I normally achieve. My question therefore is, in using 1200-2000 grade papers to cut back, are we talking about automotive wet and dry papers and if so, is sanding done either dry or wet. In an earlier part of my life I used to do quite a lot of car restoration work and so am well familiar with wet sanding paint back.
If not automotive wet and dry papers and/or wet sanding, where do you get such grade papers and if dry sanding would I be correct in thinking such papers would loose their cutting ability pretty quickly.
I only ask as sometime in the future, I think I really may need to re-French Polish my lovely antique cedar dining table as it definitely has been subject to a true FP finish by a restorer in the past, but it is suffering a little bit of breakdown on the edges due to UV exposure, plus has a few scratches (due to my cats) which annoy me. When I got this table the finish was perfect.
Horse
I have attached some pics of the final result as per my coffee table build. To be honest I would mark my effort in regards to French Polishing about a 5 out of 10 but for a first effort I think I did ok.
I took my time and did not rush! I applied about 4 coates then walked away for about an hour then came back sanded with 1200 and then repeated the process about 6 times. My shellacing was a little streaky, a litlle patchy in places but after I cut it back with U Buet cream and 0000 steal wool she evened things out nicley. I even hit the last with U BUET Traditional wax and the thing was just popping.
Cheers
Bryan Attachment 279004Attachment 279005
Looks really lovely Bryan, and I too would be perfectly happy with such a result.
Perhaps I too should grab myself some of the ubeaut products. Been meaning to do so.
But just to clarify re the cutting back with 1200, as per my previous question, is this dry or wet sanding and specifically what type of papers, that is automotive, wood, plaster or ? I normally only use the white papers (as per for plaster) for all my polishing, as I have found these to be more durable than just woodwork sandpapers.
Just so that you can see the level of finish I get with the technques I use, see below :). I apply the same process to the antiques I am restoring, as per how I finish all the antique joinery in my early colonial properties. The overmantle, in the pic with the blue paintwork around the chimney is made from a combination of tas oak and cedar fillets. This house is Regency (1826) hence all the reeded detail work. The benchtop in the kitchen is the only part (well floor aside) which is not shellac finished. The benchtop is done using Tung Oil, given it is a work space and wet area.
I guess my question for those in the knowledge is how much finer and/or deeper lustre could I achieve by going with the finer papers and perhaps is this necessary ? I am not criticising, would just like to learn more.
Mate
I think I would be going back to the beginning! One or two things that I picked up from this excercise was thet the better you sand the better the outcome. Sounds obvious but so true!
The other thing I noted is to try and get an even spread. The issue I had was the pad would start off with a good amount of shellac and then run out of shellac as we went along. obvious again but on a wide surface like a table top it leads to inconsistancy's. Next time I my using a spray gun out a fine camel haired brush.
The other option which is good for table tops is poly cut down to a 1/8 mix and applied in the same way.
I think it is neither here nor there what sand paper you use, I would admit the wet and dry stuff clogs up pretty bad so maybe the paint paper does work better.
Cutting back the term means to me using the cutting cream with 0000 steal wool. This really did make everything pop! All in all I like Shellac for is virtually instant drying time, with all this rain though things did drag out quite a bit. I resorted to taking it upstairs and whacking on the aircon it sped up things a lot.
I think I will use shellac on smaller pieces like boxes for instance, goes to show that FP is really a black art!
That's a great video. I taught myself out of a book a friend had. Only had access to hardware store grade shellac and metho at the time. Didn't have pumice, so skipped that bit, but the rest I found through trial and error. His advice not to work it too long in one sitting is especially sound. When you get it going right you'll be amazed to see how quickly grain can fill. I'd probably add that when you see cracks form around the grain after you leave it for a while, it is usually because you have trapped too much oil under the shellac and it is drying out. And if the surface is milky/blotchy you probably need drier air to work in. I did a beautiful job on a .22 Anschutz stock, then chased a fox about a week later, through barbwire fences, et al...you can guess the result -> :ranting2:
ouch, so i guess fox 1, barb wire fence 2 and .22 stock 0 !
oh well, can too well relate to that, what with both houses full of antiques and antique joinery restored by myself plus 5 cats. Scratches being inevitable.
Regardless of all that I will always use shellac to restore my antiques and joinery. Poly being the enemy to nice timbers.
It's impossible to tell without seeing but it sounds as if you are using too wet a rubber. It's always a temptation but once you have bodied up filling the grain etc the thinner the coat you put on the better. Then there is the amount of pressure you put on the rubber. At first you don't need too much pressure but as the rubber works out you also need to work harder. Besides putting on new layers, the rubber is constantly blending in the previous layers through the "cloud" of metho it carries along with it. The finish takes a while to come but when it does all you have is a thin smear of oil following the last few inches of the rubber track. You remove that of course by spiriting off.Quote:
Originally Posted by Milo