The bali 9 - is a death sentence appropriate?

On 60 minutes tonight I saw the children who are soon to meet their maker if convicted and could not help stop thinking about it when I saw the son (about 20) crying on his mum's shoulder.

I've got little doubt that they did it for the money and I see the results of drugs more often than most, especially early on in my career, but do these children deserve to die for what is no doubt a stupid decision. But lets be real, at that age who wasn't stupid in some way....some might say that they still are.

What a horrible, horrible business. And I dont think for a moment that this was about their upbringing etc. They met the wrong person, they got greedy, they made the wrong decision.........

What do you think, am I getting soft?

Oh and BTW, I dont think they kill rapists or child molesters. How could drug running be any worse than that?

That drug can kill people. And people on it aren't really capable of doing much, however as governemts have decided that they should be able to tell us what we can and cant do to our own bodies, its illegal and therfore really expensive. This is the main cause of the misery associated with tthat drug (money to buy more). And the main cause of the attraction for people to do really stupid things, viz; Carry drugs through countries where they have the death penalty.
Does the punishment fit the crime? After all they are only trying to fill a demand. I think drug laws are most illogical and irrational
I hate drugs, (even from alcohol when I have a hangover) but think they should be all legal or all illegal. (that includes tobacco the biggest killer by 1000 times)
They dont deserve to die.

And I have close family experience

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Originally Posted by boban

How could drug running be any worse than that?

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How could anyone think it's not?

Maybe you ought to get out and work with some of the organisations that provide assistance to the victims, and I'm not just talking about users, many of whom end up dead one way or another.

As far as the question goes, what I think, or what some idiot journo tells us doesn't matter a jot, if the laws of a country have been broken, it's the job of the judiciary in that country to decide.

Of course any conspirators caught in this country should be rounded up and sent there for trial as well.

How arrogent are we becoming as a nation when we think OUR LAWS are better than THEIRS??? Isn't that the sort of behaviour that we gently chide our Seppo friends for......if 160 million people in Indonesia can live with the consequences of dealing in drugs, then that's all the idiots who do have to know.

Cheers,

P (getting the week off to a flying start!)
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[QUOTE=bitingmidge]How could anyone think it's not?

/QUOTE]

A dichhead on the street using drugs as opposed to someone raping my children or even yours?

on the face of it they are guilty - I saw the richard carlton thing last night - I dont like him - he aint a bastion of integrity... more of an ambulance chaser (if he can do with without his suitcase full of pate fio de gras and quail eggs spilling open)

they knew the risks, its all over the AUSTRALIAN passports they were issued ; "In some countries drug related offences can result in the death penalty." In some of thier cases passports meant multiple fake ones (Or so the press says)

$10 million big ones is a $hit pot of corruption - let 'em swing.

now corby.... thats ANOTHER matter.

Having had first hand experience with druggies I know that most are a lost cause, sent several for rehab, all seems to be going well then, bang, don't turn up for a treatment so we head off to home and find them dead on the floor with a syringe hanging out of their arm.
They are also expert liars and will steal from their own family to support their habit.
The dealers generally do not use the drugs and are well aware of the supply and demand in the market place that they have created and as a consequence should be made accountable for their misguided deeds in whatever country they choose to get caught in.
As for innocent fools who claimed not tyo know the consequences, it's plastered everywhere, warning of what the result of the crime will be, and apparantly it's not the first time they went accross for some heroin.
2kg apiece is just a bit too much for recreational use, or one hell of a party.
At the bottom of the pile, I assess the risk when I put money in a parking meter knowing I'm going to be back about 5 minutes too late, it's a gamble and if I'm wrong I get a ticket, this is really not much different but the 'ticket' is a bit stiffer.

Your son/daughter a loser druggie = "evil wrongdoers - hang'em"

Your normal bulletproof 20-something son/daughter caught trying to make a buck = "Don't hurt my baby/innocent/didn't know etc etc"

Ne'er the twain shall meet.

Bloody awful business, all 'round. There but for the grace of (insert your god)....

someone has an auto signature that is accredited to billy connelly - he says something about the first bloke that milked a cow - did he know what he was doing ? or some such thing... funny in itself, BUT what about the first bloke who tried smack or coke or dope etc... did they know what they were doing and the anticipated results thererof ? has getting out of it been a known thing in early societies ? or just by products of well intentioned actions ? evil things drugs.

Do the crime - do the time.
Break laws and pay the penalties, which are imposed by the country where the laws broken. If this lot go to the firing squad then all trafficers get the big message.
How many lives and how much misery have been saved by stopping this ring of druggies?

But I think Corby is a different matter and should be released.

A death sentence is never aproppriate. Morally I don't think revenge and justice are the same thing, and politically I don't trust any government to do anything right; as for giving them the power to kill :eek:.

Ignorance abounds; we take it for granted that people know that drug crimes carry the death penalty in Indonesia, but we've aready established that they were stupid enough to get involved in the first place. I wouldn't be surprised if the dumba$$es thought Bali was part of Australia.

I have to disagree with Midge. I don't think it's arrogant to suggest our laws are better. They are our laws after all, for all their faults, and we don't live under military rule, for which I'm grateful.

The "Bali nine" themselves are proof that the death penalty is not a deterrent. Let them do time in Australia. I don't have first-hand experience, but I don't think it would be any picnic for them.

I have little doubt that there are people involved with this who are evil, and probably should die. But it's not the mules.

Rusty.

Don't think for a minute that the AFP didn't know exactly what they were doing when they tipped off the Indonesians, either. Yes, it should send a message - but the message wont go to the dealers because they have heard it before. It might make it harder to get mules. But then this lot must've been on another planet if they hadn't heard about Chappelle Corby.

Maybe there was some intimidation going on. Death threats against their familes and so on. I expect that will be part of the defence. The Indonesians will want to make an example of them though, so I expect it will be a bullet in the head for each of them. It's just a shame they can't extradite the ones who sent these kids over there and try them under Indonesian law too.

So the 9 should now be well motivated to finger the Lords.

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Originally Posted by boban

tonight I saw the children

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They are all adults, not children. They are young, yes, but lets not get confused here. They are adults who were fully aware of the penalties of what they were doing. I think they should execute them for being so stupid. How could they think this wouldn't happen if they got caught, considering Corby's case.

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Originally Posted by boban

What do you think, am I getting soft?

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Yep. :p

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Originally Posted by boban

Oh and BTW, I dont think they kill rapists or child molesters. How could drug running be any worse than that?

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A lot of these countries do not have the same taboo's as we do. They do not think rape and child molestation are the heinous crimes that we think they are. That is just a difference in belief.


NOW, what I think about the whole thing. Have some consideraton for the end result of drug smuggling. Death, sickness, increased crime rates, just to name a couple. Most property related crime these days is related to drugs and the procurement of drugs. They are a blight to any society and all efforts should be made to stamp them out completely. If a few stupid, foolish people who get caught smuggling get the death penalty because they don't respect the local laws, then so be it.

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Originally Posted by Gingermick

but think they should be all legal or all illegal. (that includes tobacco the biggest killer by 1000 times)

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You're kidding aren't you? If you banned all drugs you would have to ban alcohol (a depressant, the biggest killer of 18 - 25 year olds.) and coffee (caffiene (stimulant)) too.

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Originally Posted by DanP

If you banned all drugs you would have to ban ---snip--- and coffee (caffiene (stimulant)) too.

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NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:

Richard

Right on Dan.

Considering the crime and the consequences, the bastards can cop the full weight of Indonesian law and serve it in their prisons, not ours.

Having said that, I don't believe that anyone has the right to take another's life. Therefore, I can't support a death sentence for anyone. However, life in prison, that is, you die there ... eventually, seems appropriate for what these low lives were going to inflict on the end users of those drugs.

Cheers
Richard

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Originally Posted by silentC

Don't think for a minute that the AFP didn't know exactly what they were doing when they tipped off the Indonesians, either. Yes, it should send a message - but the message wont go to the dealers because they have heard it before. It might make it harder to get mules. But then this lot must've been on another planet if they hadn't heard about Chappelle Corby.

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Yeah - I'd love to know what the AFP were thinking when they tipped off Indonesian customs. They must[?] have considered this against intercepting and substituting the stuff here and tracing it through the dealer network here. Maybe they weren't confident about tracing it and thought it better to expose them to the Indonesian justice system.

All these recent drug events makes me wonder how effective Indonesian customs really are. Both the Corby and 9 cases lead me to the conclusion that they can't apprehend anyone unless it is ludicrously obvious (Corby) or it is handed to them by another law enforcement agency (the 9). Having said this, I don't know if our own interception process are the best either. Despite our efforts there is still plenty of the white stuff available on our streets. :mad:

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However, life in prison, that is, you die there ... eventually, seems appropriate for what these low lives were going to inflict on the end users of those drugs.

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The problem is, I don't really think these guys were the ones who were going to do the inflicting. Yes they would have played their part in bringing the stuff into the country - but they're not the ones who paid for it, nor were they the ones who were going to sell it on the streets.

I'm not apologising for them but their real crime was utter stupidity and not thinking things through. I could even believe that they had no idea what they were going to be carrying. I could also believe that they did it because they were told that if they didn't they or their families would be 'disappeared'.

Either way, I can't see them getting off with a prison sentence, especially since they were caught with the stuff taped to their bodies. What's the defence: "I didn't dress myself this morning"?

The sad part is that the real crims are the ones who sent them over there and they probably will get away with it. Even if they do get caught, they'll go to gaol for what, 5 years?

The schidt the barstards were carrying into OUR country is/was a death sentence for some of OUR people so I don't give a rats' if they get killed for their greed.... shoot the filth! :mad: :mad: :mad:

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Originally Posted by Rusty

A death sentence is never aproppriate.

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Disagree. Surely you don't think ba$tard$ like Martin Bryant & Juian Knight shouldn't be swinging on the end of a rope?

Child killers etc should be terminated. If they had a referendum, it would win hands down.

I'm with Gumby. As long as there is NO doubt of the identity and guilt of the crook.

Dan

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Originally Posted by Gumby

Disagree. Surely you don't think ba$tard$ like Martin Bryant & Juian Knight shouldn't be swinging on the end of a rope?

Child killers etc should be terminated. If they had a referendum, it would win hands down.

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Logically & philosophically I am very much anti-death penalty, for christians it breaks one of the commandments, for others it's 21st century society, civilised man and all that, there is no coming back if we made an error etc etc.
Having said that, in my gut I would like to see all the reptiles like Bryant and Rock spiders become less than memories just greasy stains.
On intravenous drug use and dealers in such. My family has unfortunately has far too much to do with the fallout of these perveyors in human misery, but I still don't think society initiated murder of another human being does anything positive for us as a people either.

I will echo Tassiekiwis' sentiments with the thought "There but for the grace of God go I"

Bruce C.

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Originally Posted by TassieKiwi

.................Bloody awful business, all 'round. There but for the grace of (insert your god).........

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Nice balance

As an individual I'm not as forgiving as I'd like to be, and if someone close to me was hurt, I'd have a hard time not wishing death on the perpetrator.

As a society though, if we don't keep striving to remain compassionate, we'll backslide, and perhaps be no better than those who have harmed us in the first place.

Perhaps I'm misinformed, but I thought Bryant was a nutcase, not evil. Hating him for killing is like hating a plane for crashing. We maintain aircraft to keep 'em flying, I reckon we should keep a closer eye on our crazy people, too. I'm prepared to pay to keep him locked up. As for Julian Knight, apparently he's not crazy. A bullet might have been a just thing in his case. However, he didn't get one while he was armed, and I don't believe we should kill prisoners.

Thre's no easy answers in my opinion. We should keep trying to be better than them. Love thine enemy. It's a tough call, but all the worthwhile things in life are tough at first. Like freehand sharpening. I can't believe this weather. Bewdiful.

Rusty.

The reason accused 9 accepted a paid trip to Bali, were allegedly paid and attempted to conceal the goods was because they knew the consequences if they were caught.

You don’t get paid big dollars to go to a holiday destination and bring back legal goods because there is no risk involved.

To suggest that they were not aware of the consequences is ridiculous. If they are blind, illiterate and deaf I am sure they would have smelt a rat merely by the relatively large sum of money being offered to carry the stuff.

I feel they did a primitive risk analysis and felt the rewards more than offset the chance of being caught and the permanent penalty. The conclusion they reached (to go ahead with the deal) was made with consideration of all the consequences.

Whether you think the death penalty is too hard or not, it is Indonesian law – the country where they allegedly committed the crime.

If they were carrying drugs and they were able to land them in Australia the effect to local young drug takers would have also been possibly terminal.

If you were the parent of a child who had died of a drug overdose, would you be suggesting the suppliers of the drug be handled with kid gloves?

I think they should be given a fair trial and if they are found guilty they pay the penalty, in this case the death penalty – the penalty they knowingly gambled with and lost. :(

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Originally Posted by Gumby

Disagree. Surely you don't think ba$tard$ like Martin Bryant & Juian Knight shouldn't be swinging on the end of a rope?

Child killers etc should be terminated. If they had a referendum, it would win hands down.

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I'm sure it would win, but if prison is so good for these bastards why is then that they try to kill themselves in prison. My guess, its a better way out for them..... Would 20 years in a hell hole like the Indonesian prisons would be as much a deterent as a death sentence. Maybe???

However if it were my kids they killed, Im not sure I would be so level headed, I'd want revenge too. One reason I guess that victim's familys dont get to chose the punishment.

And to me 20 is still a baby, despite the classification as an adult at 18.

I dont totally disagree with any of the opinions here as its quite easy to point to the damage drugs do so many, but I was saddened by what I saw in spite of it being presented by Richard Carlton.

As far us dictating what is an appropriate law, the world has been doing this for a long time, not just the Seppos, however most dont invade other countries. I have my opinions on various governments and their laws around the world, and in most cases I think ours are better. Not always right but better as a balance on whole. That's why we are a destination for refugees and immigrants alike. Now that might be considered arrogant by some but I'm not alone here.

When I posted this I thought there would be a variety of opinions and one thing that we can be thankful for, is that we can express them freely (subject to pancake comments etc etc).

Now if their parents just bought them a tablesaw.........

Na.............they'll end up Bringing em home n dealing with em here a bit of powder is not worth a life though that stuff would have caused some deaths once it Hit our shores........All I know is 2 wrongs dont make a right Lock em up!!!..........there only kids!

I personally doubt they will be executed. I think it's all politics at work. It's all about what it's doing on this forum right now - making everyone talk about it and to shock idiots into not trying it themselves. I think the Aussie authorities informed the indonesian authorities to allow this to play out the way it is. They'll get a jail sentence of some sort. Part of the sentence will be served in Indonesia (just to really scare the crap out of them and anyone else willing to read the book they'll write) and the rest in Aus.


Lets face it Indonesia couldn't give a toss about what Aussies or anyone else is sticking in their arm or if they supplied it - it's all about the tourist dollars. This would be far too costly for Indonesia to execute 9 idiots, guilty or not - tourists would stay away in the thousands if they did.

Anyone else remember Chambers & Barlow? :(

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Originally Posted by E. maculata

Anyone else remember Chambers & Barlow? :(

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Yep.

I don't think any Aussies have been pinged with significant amounts of drugs iin Malaysia since then either.

Lets not forget about the Aussie 21 yr old who's on death row in Singapore either. He was transiting through Singapore airport from Vietnam when he was nabbed.

Then you've got the teenagers who were picked up in Hong Kong a few weeks ago. They are looking at life I think.

I mean just how stupid are these people?

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Originally Posted by craigb

I mean just how stupid are these people?

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Ask Dan, every mug either thinks he is smarter than the cops or has a foolproof plan.

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Originally Posted by Rusty

Perhaps I'm misinformed, but I thought Bryant was a nutcase, not evil. Hating him for killing is like hating a plane for crashing. Rusty.

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Not guilty by reason of insanity doesn't wash with me. It's obvious ! You have to be nuts to do it so how can that be a defence. Insane or not, mistreated as a child or not, and any other excuse - I'm not interested. String the mongrel up.

Give them a long sentence and in 25 years time so goody two shoes goose will be leading a movement to have him released. He'd go before a parole board of acedemic, know-it-all fruit cakes and highly qualified professors who have no concept of the real world.

I've had dealings with the family of one of Bryant's victims and have seen first hand what it does. Nope , absolutely no sympathy from me.

Don't say punishment isn't a deterent - try littering in Singapore and see how you go. Regardless of that though, I don't care about the deterent either - he wouldn't be able to do it again if he was gone.

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Originally Posted by DanP

alcohol (a depressant, the biggest killer of 18 - 25 year olds.) .

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Do you see a lot of alcohol poisoning and overdose? While we're on this topic, lets limit engine capacity for that age group to 1000cc and 4 wheels

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Originally Posted by Gingermick

Do you see a lot of alcohol poisining and overdose? While we're on this topic, lets limit engine capacity for that age group to 1000cc and 4 wheels

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That would be one quick quad bike dont you think?

Keep this one on topic please.

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Originally Posted by

Keep this one on topic please.

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So I cant reply then??

Al :D

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Originally Posted by Gumby

Don't say punishment isn't a deterent -.

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Deterrents don't work with drugs. Doesn't mater what the penalty, as long as there is demand there will be supply.

Killing people, beating them, locking them up for 100 years, shooting their parents for having them or any other draconian measures will not stop drugs coming into this country. No matter how much money we spend on policing and border patrols, drugs will continue to come into the country. There is simply way too much money in it. The people who make the money are rarely the ones who get caught. It is almost always the desperate, the unfortunate or the plain stupid ones who are put into the position of highest risk. Even if the “Mr Big”s get caught there are another 3 lining up behind them to take their place.

If we actually start to intercept 90% of the illicit drugs that are destined for this country, the people who make the money will simply increase there shipments into Australia. Heroin, cocaine, marijuana etc. simply grows on trees (well plants anyway). It costs so little to produce they can afford to do this with very little impact on supply.

We need to control the importation, manufacture and distribution of all the currently illicit drugs. Take the money out of the drug trade and you will have no drug trade.

People will still take drugs no matter if they are legal or illegal. It doesn’t matter if people know that the drug is bad for them they will still become users of it. Have a look at tobacco.

Its the financial cost of drugs that damage society so much.
We need to get people off drugs for good through their own cognition rather than fear of punishment.

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Originally Posted by bitingmidge

How arrogent are we becoming as a nation when we think OUR LAWS are better than THEIRS??? Isn't that the sort of behaviour that we gently chide our Seppo friends for......if 160 million people in Indonesia can live with the consequences of dealing in drugs, then that's all the idiots who do have to know.

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Fully agree with that, and it is not only Indonesia it is also other Asian countries that have the same laws. They are also well publicised.

The other thing I have heard a lot on the radio is that their system of justice is 3rd rate unlike ours because they are not presumed innocent until proven guilty. Their system of justice being based on the Code Napoleon was introduced by the Dutch and is the same as in use in most European countries.

Under this system the Bali 9, having been arrested and charged by the police, are automatically, in the eyes of their law, guilty unless they can prove their innocence. The court case is there to give them the opportunity to prove their innocence. Which I don't think they can.

In view of the evidence against them I the death penalty in this particular case is the most appropriate.


Peter.