Scratches that just won't rub out.

On a piece of QLD Maple, well before applying any finishes, I have a couple of what look like scratches in the end-grain, but no amount of sanding removes them. I just spent 30 minutes with 100 grit and it made no difference whatsoever, but a lot of material was removed. It's like a weak line across the grain. There are other natural lines parallel to these, as can be seen in the pic, but they don't stand out. These lines are at right angles to my direction of shaping and sanding. You can see my horizontal sanding marks, across the scratches.

Has anyone struck this and, more importantly, is there a way to hide it, or will I have to live with it? It stands out badly, and more and more as I finish with finer grits. I'll be finishing with Wipe-On Poly. Is that likely to cover it up?
It's definitely not a shaping mark. These marks are only in one area of the timber, too.

I tried to get a good blow-up of one of the marks. Sort of succeeded. The second pic shows how much they stand out from a distance. A little hard to see in the second thumbnail, but they stand out in the full-size pic.: -

Edit: My eyes are pretty bad - I can see them better in the photo than in real life. Are they possibly fine cracks, filled with dust? I tried blowing out any dust for a better look, but it made no difference.
The third pic is after working the area back to 1200 grit.

I just spent another 30 mins solid sanding trying to rub these marks out. Made no difference, except that now, with all the sanding, the whole thing has gone out of shape.
Looks like this one's headed for the bin. A couple of weeks down the drain.

That looks like a flaw on the wood,seeing that you are the point of throw out just go ahead with the finish it may surprise you and not be so visible

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Originally Posted by nrb

That looks like a flaw on the wood,seeing that you are the point of throw out just go ahead with the finish it may surprise you and not be so visible

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Trouble is, I'm very limited on equipment and have to do most things by hand. There's still two weeks work at least in this one. I could work for two weeks and still find it's not acceptable.
I'm gonna let it sit for a bit then look at it again. I hate giving up, but might have to. I could cut it right down to get rid of the marks, then make something else out of it.
Bloody annoying.

I do have more Jarrah and a small piece of QLD Maple left to start again, but I'd still have to use the original lid and base, so I wouldn't get the grain match that I was looking for.

Looks like you're in that hard place and a rock!!

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Originally Posted by nrb

Looks like you're in that hard place and a rock!!

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Yeah, maybe. I just made a discovery, though. I thought about it for a bit and figured that if it was cracks, thin CA glue should 'wick' into them, so I put a drop on one and voila, it 'wicked' in and now is clearly a crack. Looks much less like a scratch, too. The crack is well defined.
I'll let it dry properly, sand again and have a good look, then consider re-scribing the heart shape slightly smaller and re-shaping the whole thing down to it. Might be able to save it yet. I was planning two internal compartments. They'll be possibly too small now to shape and sand properly and I might have to just make one big compartment, but I can accept that.
I'll see how it goes. I've got a spindle sander coming later in the week. It'll help.

After a little sanding, the repair hardly stands out and now looks like this, (below). It doesn't catch the light any more. Might put another drop on it, too, it all soaked up.: -
(I got away with it - just have to do the others, then spend a couple of days re-shaping. Better than starting again.)

Now I won't have to do this: - :D

Good result Hermit,would have been a B###er to have to start again :2tsup::2tsup::2tsup:

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Originally Posted by nrb

Good result Hermit,would have been a B###er to have to start again :2tsup::2tsup::2tsup:

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Mate, you're not wrong. I even cut up the individual slices of QLD Maple with a hand-saw, then hand-sanded them flat with W & D on a sheet of perspex, to make sure they were perfectly flat for lamination. A slog, to say the least.

I just re-drew the pattern on the computer, kept the original height but shaved a little off the sides. I can do minimal re-shaping to get back on track.

I learned a couple of things from this one - first, next time I have any doubt, I'll settle it with a drop of CA.
Secondly, I need to get my eyes checked and get new glasses. Been wearing this pair for about 5 years. You sort of don't notice things becoming blurrier and blurrier until something like this comes along. I should have seen that it was a crack, and not tried to sand it out.
From the amount of CA that it drank, the crack goes deep, so no amount of sanding would have helped.

All's well that ends well. :U

I picked this tip up from a magazine. Use fine dust of the wood your using and mix it with liquid hide glue and then push it into the defect. Hide glue takes a finish and is hard to spot as it blends in with the wood and as I said takes a finish. I keep a bottle just for this purpose. I'm now becoming a big fan of hide glue as my glue lines are less noticable and it has a longer open time to work with.:D:D

SB

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Originally Posted by Superbunny

I picked this tip up from a magazine. Use fine dust of the wood your using and mix it with liquid hide glue and then push it into the defect. Hide glue takes a finish and is hard to spot as it blends in with the wood and as I said takes a finish. I keep a bottle just for this purpose. I'm now becoming a big fan of hide glue as my glue lines are less noticable and it has a longer open time to work with.:D:D

SB

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Thanks SB. I should get some hide glue for that purpose, if no other. I keep little bags of fine sawdust from all timbers I work, but usually mix it with PVA or epoxy as a filler. Doesn't take a finish, though. (Jarrah/epoxy makes a good, dark blood red filler for worm holes etc.)
Hide glue is on my shopping list. I'll get some this week.

In this case, the CA blends completely and is invisible when the timber is moistened, so I'm confident that they won't be noticeable under half a dozen coats of poly. (The cracks were far too fine to use fine dust, too.)

Just by looking at that picture, i think it is possible to sand the scratch out with a orbital sander, use 120 grit to start with and never leave your sander on same spot, constant moving it back and forth then going over the whole piece to level it all out.

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Originally Posted by GPL

Just by looking at that picture, i think it is possible to sand the scratch out with a orbital sander, use 120 grit to start with and never leave your sander on same spot, constant moving it back and forth then going over the whole piece to level it all out.

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You obviously didn't read the thread through. It turned out to be cracks. I used CA glue, as described. (This was over a month ago.)

I think what you have there is a drying fracture.

The give away is that it does not have tapered ends and one crack zig zags into another.

You will find these pretty common in kiln dried hardwoods.

The old glue and dust chestnut simply is not appropriate for something this fine..appart from dust and PVA working very poorly at the best of times.



this is a flaw that has to be addressed with some sort of thinned resin......If you are intending to use some sort of fine rubbed finish, you will need to address the end grain porosity as well as the scratch.

Personally I have had good results with drenches of shelac......just keep brushing on a thin cut of shelac till the piece stops drinking......let it go off, sand and drench again..repeat till you have a choked out base.

This method can give very good depth and light to grain features, particularly if white shelac is used.

sometimes this will show how porous the timbe is by running straight thru the sides of the piece

The shealc will than take a good variety of finishes..somtimes all that is needed is shelac and some wax rubbed out.

cheers

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Originally Posted by soundman

this is a flaw that has to be addressed with some sort of thinned resin......

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Not 'has to', there are alternatives. As mentioned, the CA worked fine. It has the advantage over most things that it wicks into cracks and coats the whole surface, plus has good bonding strength to help ensure that the crack doesn't continue. This was for under a wipe-on poly finish, and the cracks are completely invisible now.
It was naturally dried timber. I haven't struck any other cracking, just this one which extends a long way into the block - I traced and marked it for the future.

CA is a resin.

cheers

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Originally Posted by soundman

CA is a resin.

cheers

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Nope. Resins are produced by plants or trees . Cyano-acrylates aren't.

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Originally Posted by Hermit

Nope. Resins are produced by plants or trees . Cyano-acrylates aren't.

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CA is a resin. Resins may be synthetic or natural products from not only plants, but insects too, and possibly higher animals* as well. The name can really be applied to any organic molecules or mixtures that set to a solid and that might be through a chemical change or just solidifying.

*Ambergris come to mind

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Originally Posted by mic-d

CA is a resin. Resins may be synthetic or natural products from not only plants, but insects too, and possibly higher animals* as well. The name can really be applied to any organic molecules or mixtures that set to a solid and that might be through a chemical change or just solidifying.

*Ambergris come to mind

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If that's the case, I stand corrected. (Not just trying to start arguments.)
However, I did look it up in the (online) dictionary and it only mentioned plants or trees. Not even animals, so according to it not even shellac is a resin.

Digging further now.
You are both correct.:-

Just found this: -
2. Any of numerous physically similar polymerized synthetics or chemically modified natural resins including thermoplastic materials such as polyvinyl, polystyrene, and polyethylene and thermosetting materials such as polyesters, epoxies, and silicones that are used with fillers, stabilizers, pigments, and other components to form plastics.

and:

cyanoacrylate is an acrylic resin


We learn something every day.:D

(I guess resin used to come from only plants or trees - 100 years ago.:;)
Humble pie for lunch.

The point being, such fine cracks and splits are better dealt with filling with resins ( liquid products that set to solids, if you like) prefereably fine, runny ones, rather than particulate fillers.

cheers

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Originally Posted by soundman

The point being, such fine cracks and splits are better dealt with filling with resins ( liquid products that set to solids, if you like) prefereably fine, runny ones, rather than particulate fillers.

cheers

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Can't argue with that. We're coming from the same place. I use liquid for fine cracks and 'particulate', (epoxy or PVA + sawdust), for gap filling.

(I thought you originally meant that CA wasn't suitable and that I should have used shellac or similar.)

Yeh the PVA does not work well with sawdust or for other gap filling or sealing, mostly because it does not go off hard and does not penetrate.

It is a relativly soft elastic product when cured and does not sand well, nore does it hold finish well.

Far better of looking at the resinous type products.

Hide glue goes off crisper and works reasonable well, shelac works a treat, the harder epoxies work well, the softer ones (like retail araldite)work poorly....CA can work well but its expensive and goes off a but fast for bogging up holes..althoug packing the void with the particles and then applying the CA can work.

Heaps of people keep pushing the PVA and sawdust, both on TV and books...but it works very pooly compared to other things available.

cheers