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I'm (or I should say we) are about to go down this track, so I was wondering;
How many of ya's have been an Owner-Builder?
Do you think you saved money compared to using a building company?
Did ya have problems getting Subbies?
What city/town was/are the house in?
What problems did you experience/have?
Would you do it again?
Did the end results meet the expectations of She Who Must Be Obeyed?
Thanks
Rod1949,
Don't let me or anyone else talk you out of it if you are really keen to do this thing, and put in a big effort.
I am a registered builder (some would say architect and contractor ;) ) but don't work as a builder. All my houses therefore have technically been "owner built", the last two with a carpenter/foreman - supervisor.
You need to be there. You cannot rely on others to do the right thing...they won't. You need to co-ordinate. You need to order things and follow up.
Will you save money?? Probably not, depending on how well organised you are, except for the work you do yourself, depending on what the current work climate is in your town. You may pick up a few dollars, but remember that if you don't supervise correctly you will be the one coming back to fix the leak in four years time.
In my experience subbies will be thinking that this is a one off, they will have a lot of buggery factor because they are working for an owner builder, and will charge accordingly. You won't get the same rate as they will give a builder for whom they do regular work.
You may be able to buy some things well, but remember that saving twenty or thirty dollars on a toilet pan isn't a big percentage of a couple of hundred thousand :eek: .
So... enjoy it, put your heart into it and get a great deal of satisfaction at the end, but don't do it to save money.
Cheers,
P
Hi Rod,
As midge said, don't do it for the money. I am not a builder, but have been an owner builder. You will end up with a better job..not to mention the satisfaction.
Do your homework and plan. In my building, I also planned and allowed for future maintenance so I could keep the building looking fresh al the time.
You will require local council inspections. Most of these dudes are good. Go out of your way to show them you are doing things correctly. If they have doubts and get their back up, they can make life hell.
Good luck and take your time.
Conwood
I actually work (yes I do work) for the Building Services Authority in Brisbane and our website has a fair bit of info for owner builders. It might not all apply in WA but most of it is pretty commonsense stuff. If you follow the link http://www.bsa.qld.gov.au/consumer/ you'll find a series of Fact Sheets etc which may help. Best wishes.
Graeme Carson
I am in no way a builder (as u might have seen from some of my posts lol) but my sister and her fiance have just started being an owner-builder.
They are going to end up rendering the house and painting the roof tiles so they are saving money buying odd bits and pieces of bricks and tiles. buying out of the quokka from "renovations gone wrong" LOL
The permit is for 2 years... thats in Beldon, WA.
So far they have saved a few thousand dollars.
well worth it I think!
Hi Rob1949,
My wife and I Were ownerbuilders about 3 years ago, We bulit our own home.
We got a brickie in, in which my wife helped with the bricks, we did all the plumbing, ( we got quoted 12500 for the plumbing we did it for 3000 ), elec work ( then got a A grade elec to check and sign off, we helped a chippy with the major frame work.
My wife did all the plastering, skirts etc.
we had a quote off 125000 for a builder to do it to lock up only.
We did the whole thing to moving in with no more to do for the same price that he quoted for lock up only.
It is not easy, but a great learning experience, plus you end up with lots of tools:D
It took us about 7 mths to do. No regrets at all.
We saved heaps because we did most of it ourselfs and that is where you will save money.
Cheers Guy
For you Mr Midge.
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Al :D
Hey Oz! What is it you linked to that takes half an hour not to load?
P
(who can't even get the confused smiley to load!!)
Must be your Mac.....:D
Al ;)
hi rod, really envy you doing this. never did it myself but wish i had. every success with project and enjoy you dream home. Dont cockup the workshop whatever you do.
beejay1
Also I think there is some law that if you build your own home, or do any of your own plumbing, electrical, or just about any other work, and then sell your home soon after, YOU are liable for any problems that work creates within 5 years of that work being completed. So if you build, then sell within 5 years, and in that same period the house falls down or has major problems, you are going to have to pay up :(
Maybe someone else in the know can confirm the time period there. But just something to consider.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dean
Six years in Victoria, counted from the date of certificate of occupancy issued by council. Not 6 years and 1 day. DAMHIK.
I believe that it also covers major renovations.
Peter.
Hi Rod Just in the middle of a fairly large extension to the house had a few quotes from builders between $80 to $100k to build the thing. So far have done just about everything ourselves almost to lock up stage, sure is hard bloody work but. Learnt a hell of a lot I didnt know and asked a hell of a lot of questions from everyone that I have come in contact with, like suppliers trademan, buddies, friends or anyone that could shed light on what I needed to know. (worked on the theory that the only dumb question was the one I didnt ask)
One thing I did learn to do is take everything one nail at a time. meaning if you can knock in the first nail why cant you knock in the next ten thousand nails ? (well I`m up to about six thousand now some more to go yet)
Did learn everything is easier if you make everything "straight, level, plumb, square" as you build from the ground up.
Is owner building for everyone ? No.
If you have never used a hammer in your life before can you be a ownerbuilder ? yes.
Do you learn stuff you never dreamed of? yes
Is it hard work? hell yes
A couple of tips I would give
Have patience
Expect the unexpected
Become a weatherman
Have more patience
buy every tool you need (and then built a shed to put them in)
take everything one step at a time
plan, plan, plan,
And on the money side of things may get out of the project for around $30k so I may save a few dollars on the builders quotes ( but expecting the unexpected ) . But its the wealth of knowledge I have learnt that is the real value to me.
Good Luck
an Dial before you dig....DAMHIK:o
Cheers
Rod
This is the sort of question that people have written books upon. So it is difficult to give advice and keep it concise. I am not really good at keeping things concise so I will just make a few comments off the cuff and not neccessarily in order of importance.
1. SWMBO can never be totally pleased; even the best of them!
2. Ask yourself why you want to do this. Is it a burning desire? Do you want to save money? Both?
3. It is hard work and particularly if you build in town, as opposed to out in the bush, you will need to be well organised.
4. Read up on as much material as you can.
5. Ask as much as advice as you can. The building inspector is a good source but make sure they are sensible questions not information you could have easily obtained elsewhere. In fact a building inspector on your side is invaluable. One against you and you're in deep ****.
6.Where are you going to live while you build? What will it that cost? How long will it take you to build? Will you be working a regular job while you build?
7. How much are you going to do yourself? If you act as the coordinator/fore man, you probably won't save much money. If you do the majority of the work yourself you could save heaps as long as you resist the temptation to be extravagant.
8. What are the finance arrangements? Don't run out of money half way through. You may have to tout around to lending institutions before you find one that likes you as an owner builder.
9. Are you young and fit? It can be hard work. Is SWMBO also young and fit AND willing to help? Can you call on friends/relatives to help you because some jobs, if you are doing the work yourselves, require extra hands.
10. If you stuff something up you have fewer rights of recourse if any.
11. If you decide to do work yourself don't be too pedantic. Evaluate the saving to be made. Do the work you are comfortable with when you can save money and when you can't do either contract it out.
12. Remember that when you get the house to "lock up", it is still less than half built and all the fiddly bits remain. This is as you are starting to wear down a little with the stress of working a job, building and pacifying SWMBO.
13. If this is something you have to get out of your system, go ahead and do it but place yourself in the best possible situation to make it easy. If you think that by sitting down and thinking a little the urge might go away, think good and hard and hope the urge does go away, because it is not for the fainthearted.
The professional builder, with all his resources and working full time, probably takes 3 to 6 months to build. If you can build in 12 months, you have done exceptionally well. It is not impossible, but takes terrific commitment. I personally fell a long, long way short of that.
Hope this helps.
Regards
Paul
I've done the full weekend owner builder course at Holmesglen Tafe ( Victoria ) and even if there is no requirement to do one in WA I would still recommend that you do the course - even an interstate course if there is no suitable one locally( I think that the NSW course can be done by distance learning ). Of course some of the legislation requirements will be wrong but the other stuff will be the same wherever you are.
I certainly found that the course I did gave me plenty of food for thought about what I would be taking on. I am still thinking about it. But you can't have too much information.
I would suggest that if you are not a very organised person then you could get into strife because your role will be to co-ordinate EVERYTHING unless you employ someone to do it for you.
One of the main things I got out of the course was the fact that you cannot rely on the Building Inspectors to ensure that your house is built properly because it isn't THEIR job its YOUR job. While you pay a fee the Building Inspector is NOT working for you.
If you are subcontracting stuff out you will have to be familiar with how the job should be done to have any hope of spotting something that isn't done right, or pay someone to check it for you. Even with professional builders it is not unknown for the plumbing to be in the wrong place or the doors/window/walls to be in the wrong place. A colleague at work was having a house built for him by a big volume builder and the stuff ups were amazing.
Hi rod1949,
Working in my position in government (basically for the Board that will give you your O/B certificate), I've seen and dealt with numerous owner builders. To this number I've seen double the amount of people who, when provided with all the info up front, turn to a registered builder to handle the work for them from the start.
Firstly, should you wish to find out some basic info, try the courses offered by Midland Tafe or Home Base Expo. In addition, check out your legal restrictions - by this I mean the following: no selling the property for 3 years, no building another property under an O/B licence for 6 years, and then there's the killer for most owner builders - HII.
Home Indemnity Insurance needs to be provided to subsequent owners should you sell the house within 7 years. With only three HII providers available, most O/B's find it extremely difficult (read nearly impossible) to get this insurance, especially after the work has been completed. Look into this aspect from the start - it could save you a lot of pain down the track, for though most O/B's want to build their long-term home, circumstances change all the time.
As others have said, don't build for money - builders get wholesale prices unavailable to you, subbies charge you "retail" rates, and inevitable delays end up costing you money by the day.
All is not gloom and doom however - many O/B's end up with their dream home at a budget they started out with. Do your research beforehand, deal well with the local authority, organise your subbies in advance (with paperwork in place to protect yourself) and you should be right.
In case you wanted more info, check out www.brb.org.au or feel free to send me a private message.
Good luck with it, Craig.
It must be different in each state. Here (Vic) you are able to sell without waiting 3 years as long as you provide an indepenant report by a selected building inspection service like Archicentre. Then you send off for your warranty which is automatically granted so it's no problem getting cover. It just costs money for the inspection report and the insurance. It won't cover defects already apparent, hence the need for the report in the first place.
Thankyou Fella's. Much appreciated, you have all provided invaluable information. We are both going to an OB seminar this coming Saturday put on by Home Base.
See ya's
Rod
Hi Rod,
We have been owner building our house in North Perth for 15 months now and have found the task both challenging and rewarding. We had several builders have a look and quote on the council approved plans but only one got back to us with a figure ($190K + GST to lock-up), anyway we went ahead and did the OB thing and are a bit past lock-up stage now (plastering, tiling completed) and have landscaped the back yard for less than $100K.
One of the major things I would recommend is to make sure that you have really good working drawings. This will save you lots of hassles with the tradies. The person you get to do your drawings needs to fully understand building codes, quantity surveying, standard sizes for slabs, brickwork, plasterboard sheeting etc. In hind sight, I wish I have put more time and money into this part of our project and spent lots of time with the drafty asking Q's. Building industry is still buzzing in Perth so you will find that you have to 'hunt' trades people and be prepared to ring at leased 10 to ask for a quote because only 4 will show up and only one might quote, then start ringing around again.
I would be happy to chat with you more about our experiences if you want to contact me through the personal info section of this site.
Good luck
Todd
Thanks Todd. With the plans/specs I am determined for the drafty/architec to provide full details and not just make reference to comply with some deemed to comply code or manual. This will be spelt out up front and if they're not prepared to comply then we'll leave or show them the door.
We might need to sell our house 5 years after an extension. Has anyone sucessfully got HII as and O/B? Is so where from and how did it work out?
Cheers,
Why dont you get the drafty/architect to build the house for you as well. Part of what you are paying a builder for is his/her knowledge of the relevant codes and manuals.Quote:
Originally Posted by rod1949
As an owner builder, you are taking on that responsability so it is up to you to familiarise yourself with the relevant codes and manuals or use experienced subbies. Good luck finding a drafty/architect who can and/or will provide "full details" for you to build from.
He's had over a year to look for one ;)
I've found that the degree of success with O'Building is in more cases than not directly related to the amount of knowledge the owner has. If a tradie asks a question onsite & you don't know the correct answer it could possibly cost you money. If you don't have materials on hand at the right time it will cost you.
Despite the unending problem solving that you may be required to instantly resolve, the rewards will be there - maybe not monetary but certainly in satisfaction.
As far as the working drawings go, they are to show what is to be built not how to physically build it. All drawings should have in depth detail of material types, spans, spacings etc, wall bracing layout & details, stump spacings, lintels over openings, stud sizes at sides of openings etc etc.
Unfortunately many drawings don't make the grade for details but items such as 'rafter birdsmouths to be no greater than one third the depth of the member' or ' jamb studs in external walls & other loadbearing walls shall not be notched within the middle half of their height or within the height of the opening' are not included because it is not physically possible to cover every item - but an owner builder should have this information at their finger tips if not in the memory banks.
There is a need to (in addition to details) to put notations such as .... to comply to AS2870 because there is no way that 70 odd pages of the slab & footing requirements can be placed on a drawing or a specification list. Similarly AS1428 with a hundred odd pages in the simpilfied version.
Anyway enough of the ramblings. Good luck with the venture and good swatting.
Hi Rod
There are SO MANY good points and advice in these posts, that I won't copy any here.
I have been an owner builder twice now. The first project was a very large second story extension in Greenwood, the second which is coming to an end in a few weeks (hopefully) is a ground floor bedroom, bathroom and toilet extension.
Can you save money? Yes, but to do so you must be prepared to do some of the work (most???).
Cab you obtain and work with (ie supervise) subbies? Do *YOU* know now to answer the subbies' questions, regardless of the subbies trade?
Can you OBTAIN subcontract labour? ALL,and I DO MEAN ALL the good ones are fully and gainfully employed - why do you think the *real* builders are taking so long to build a house?
In my current project (like the first) I am doing almost everything. To save some time and CERTAINLY NOT money swmbo asked me to get a tiler to do the bathroom and toilet tiling (floor to ceiling). I had contacted NINE tilers, only FOUR turned up to give a quote, ONLY ONE measured up correctly and accurately (I found out I didn't measure up correctly :D). The ONE tiler who got it right got the job. He was very good, HOWEVER he was obtained via my brother (building supervisor for a Perth building co), and that ONLY came to fruition because the tiler was delayed starting his next job.
Have I saved some money? Yes I have no doubt that I have saved many thousands, however that is really because of the work I did.
I would not do another OB project where I did so much of the work, I have done it twice, BTDT (been there done that). Would I recommend the "adventure" to someone else? Yes, I would if you have the necessary "experience" ie know what is involved in "building", can organise things and can do much of the work.
The building industry is SOOOO busy right now (in WA) and for quite some time into the future. To be able to obtain GOOD workers is difficult, it is currently very difficult for the *REAL* builders. The workers YOU get are most likely less in either experience or quality or BOTH!
Of those contractor that are available, if they ARE good then you will (currently) pay a premium price for them. This gets back then to the possibility of doing much of the work yourself?
I would not do most of the work again myself, I would however in future (if the situation arose), subcontract the construction of house. I can easily supervise the work and handle the respective contractors questions/needs.
To be brutally honest though, I WOULD NOT be an owner builder in todays current building market. It is too hard to get good workers, too hard to get materials at the right time etc, etc. The current prices being charged by subbies is outrageous.
As an owner builder in WA, you must warrant the construction with indemnity insurance and this coverage is for SEVEN years. You need too obtain and engineers certificate to obtain this insurance, I am waiting to be notified that my certificate is ready. IF you want to sell withing THREE years of initial permit/construction, you need permission from the housing minister.
At this time in WA I would NOT recommend becoming an owner builder of a complete home, maybe an extension if you can do much of the work yourself.
BTW as an example of rates, one tiler quoted me $4500+ JUST to tile, *I* had to build a small wall (450mm x 1.8m high) for the shower screen AND brickup the bath. Fortunately through the above contact, I had a QUALITY job done INCLUDING the wall and bath brick up for $1800.
So, while you are busy getting quotes, the best guy for the job might have already been and quoted on your job, but by the time you allocate the job, he's already busy on another job - then what? get the second best? Wait for the first guy and potentially hold up the next contractor - who by the way was the best guy for his task etc, etc.
I DON'T envy the task of the WA builder at the moment.
If you want to take on the task, it can be rewarding, however at the moment that reward will only be satisfaction of doing and achieving it is highly unlikely to be a monetary reward.
My best wishes to you in whatever you choose. PM me if you want more details or would like to call me.
I bought a 1926 Cal Bungalow in September of last year that for all intents and purposes pretty much needs rebuilding. I briefly looked into OB thinking that I am pretty handy and how hard can it be? While the building part is probably not so bad, it's the knowledge of all the relevant regs that scared me off. That and the time that I would have to devote to the project. By staying in my current full time job plus doing some extra freelance stuff I do, I could make far more than what I could expect to save in doing all of the work on the house myself.
In the end, I have contracted a builder to do all of the major structural work (removing a few walls, small extension), electrical and plumbing. While I would liked to 'dabble' in each of these to increase my knowledge, in the interest of getting into the house some time this century, I am reasonably comfortable with my decision.
I have been lucky enough to find a builder who seems reasonably happy to leave a lot of the work to me - demolition, all of the internal fit out, reclad the entire house etc etc, which is more than enough to keep me entertained and make feel like I have made a significant contribution to our first home.
That said, he was supposed to start 3 weeks ago and I am yet to see him! - testament to the current building situation in Victoria.
I guess what i am trying to say is that sometimes somewhere in the middle might be a good option between doing it all yourself, or doing none of it. But I guess it would have a lot to do with your motivations as to which path you choose.
Best of luck!
Rod,
I did the owner - builder experience in 1990. It tooK 10 months till we moved in. There is lots to tell and you have heard lots already from forum members.
We bought a kit home (Conifer Craft) which is supposed to sit on a flat block but we had a downstairs included because we are on a slope. In the end it was very rewarding and people still can't believe me when i say 'I built it'.
The mistakes I can live with, mine and the subbies but they are inconvenient. The great advantage you have here is that you can ask questions on the forum. I would have killed for that!!!
Some observations or suggestions from someone who has done it tough:
* If SWMBO offers to do something, hold her to it (especially if painting is in the equation)
* Subbies really need watching and be prepared to ask questions
* Don't be afraid to ask a subbie to 'do it again'; if it is not right
* Make it possum proof (see other threads)
* Make it rat proof
*When choosing colours (roof etc) project ahead. grey is neutral but at we have all been through the mission brown, mist green.... eras
*SWMBO will never be happy with your work (as stated above) but use this criticism (objective encouragement) to refine your skills. Chances are if she says it's on an angle, it probably is and other people will notice it.
My kit came with some chisels, a B&D 71/2 in saw and planer, hammer and level. Too late I bought a drop saw and after it was all finished i bought a router and Triton workcentre. The order is really mixed up there in hindsight. How I ripped timber with a circular saw, I don't know.
Best of luck in whatever you decide and keep us informed.
Carry Pine
My DIY building experience started when I was 17 and spent 9 summers in a row helping build a Church camp site on Lake Victoria in Gippsland. In my late 20's I build a log cabin from a kit on a couple of acres at Harcourt in central Victoria. Then the big challenge - a 35 square house at Torquay. I was told labour was half the cost of building, but add to that savings on materials like hand cleaning 22,000 second hand bricks that came up fantastically in the finished house ($1100) Downgraded oregan for framing at half the price of pine. A fellow Scout leader was a plumber who lent me any specialst equipment and talked me through the difficult bits (we were on tank water so didn't need a licenced plumber). An electritian friend who checked and signed off on my wiring. A builder supply yard operator who was a friend of my brother who let me open a tradies account. On and on the savings accumilated. Only subbies I used were the brickie (I laboured for him) the roofers, the concreters and the plasterers, everything else I did myself total $43,000 plus $16,500 for the 17 acres. Sold it 5 years later for $450,000 - :D
Go for it - it will amaze you what "bargains" crop up when you start looking.
David L
PS in case your wondering - I'm a Pharmacist by profession and was able to work weekends and a couple of nights to keep the days free to work on the house.
So its your shout at the bar eh? :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Wombat2
In regard to saving money. As my useless plumber would say "you don't save 30% by being an owner-builder, you earn 30%'...... gotta be willing to eaarn it. The money we saved by being an OB enabled us to get top notch everything eg $35k kitchen instead of $15k one, designer lighting etc
Tony
Thought I'd give this a bump. We've just moved into a renovator's delight, with the plan of knocking the back room off and extending a bit. Our draftsman ball-parked $150k (finished stage, hand over the key and walk right in).
I'm keen to go the owner-builder route, and do plan to do a hell of a lot of it myself (with help from a few willing mates) - especially as we don't have that much to spend.
Looking at how much I've saved doing even basic stuff so far (repairing the floor myself, damp-proofing, etc, I'm sure I could get it down to $100k - does this sound reasonable or am I kidding myself?
Hi TJAY
If you are willing to put a LOT of work into it and you have some basic skills and nothing major goes wrong, then you can definately save a significant amount.
The best thing you can do is draw up what you want, then start to build a budget in maybe in Excel. There are plenty of places to find ball park figures for each of things you need to do, plus the materials etc. Put a column for the cost if you did it and another if a tradie did it.
You will start to see what is possible for you to do and what isn't. You should also get the difference in cost at the end. The other very important thing you need to consider is a column for the amount of days you estimate for each item to. A tradie will do it much quicker than you and you probably only have weekends? Add all the times up and make sure that your marriage can handle it!
I fully agree with this from above - "you don't save 30% by being an owner-builder, you earn 30%'...... gotta be willing to eaarn it". It is certainly a second job ... but very rewarding (at times).
Feel free to contact me if I can help further as I am part way through this process and there ar eplenty of considerations and things that I have learnt.
Got to admit, the real reason I want to do it is because I've never done something like this before, until a month or so ago I'd never picked up a power saw, now I'm walking on my brand new bedroom floor that my brother and I laid, and the rest of the house's floorboards that I repaired (when one floor guy told me to rip the lot up and start again).
I really am 'delighted to be renovating!'.
I think that's a great reason. I went into it not to save money but because I wanted to know if I could do it. To some extent it is very rewarding but in other ways it is very stressful.
Do it because you enjoy it and take heps of photos, plan as best you can and you'll be right.
This site will be the best resource you could find.
There is no feeling better than sitting down in front of the fire in a home you built yourself.
Looking around remembering the dramatic events that unfolded during the project. The budget that got blown, 3 days of blasting, all those trees cut down in 3 hours, the problems with the building inspectors, the wife and kids that now live somewhere else.....
It is a great project and very very satisfying but I found that the 2 I built changed my life radically in ways I could never imagine so be ready for that. I did one at 33 and another at 42.
You know what? if I had it to do over again I probably would without hesitation.
I would do it a bit different next time around.
Dear all, I'm the instigator of this post. The house is at lock-up with a lot of finishing work to be done.
In the not to distant future I'll post the the experience, which overall has been fantastic.
Cheers
Rod