Shed Lighting

I've recently finished buidling my new (6m x 6m) shed and am now considering how to best set up the lighting.

For general lighting, I will be using several fluros with the whiter/brighter triphosphorous tubes. However, I am aware that fluros strobe (perhaps at 50 cycles?) and hence can cause spinning machinary parts to appear stationary. Hence the usual solution is to use an incandescent light (bulb) shining on the job as well. Is this really necessary / Is it a real problem?

I was considering using low-voltage halogen lights (like those that seem to be the trend to use in kitchens and the like) for this purpose. Does anyone have a view on how useful they would be? The advantages to me appear that as they a low voltage (12V) and quite small, I could easily mount one on the end of a flexible arm that could easily be positioned in an appropraite place for the job at hand. The low voltage is attractive for safety reasons (if a bulb is broken etc). I do have a residual current detector (earth leakage) in place, but it can't hurt to play it safe...

Any experiences, comments or thoughts shared are welcome

In the dream shed (patch of sand up the back) I have a timber frame suspended over the workbench(es). The frame is faced with Hardie board for 2 x Halogens over the bench and has two power points and a air connection. Somewhere hereabouts is a thread on halogens globe replacement with new LED's.

Just be aware the halogens are a very good light to work directly under but they are that (directional). Some flouros overhead will provide good ambient light.
Also, work too close to a Halogen and you will get burnt if your a bit thin on the topside:D .

There has been lots of discussion on this topic so do a search.

Cheers

I have a 6x5m shed and have 3 banks of double fluros - the normal ones - and found that they weren't bright enough. I agree with VSQuizz - there has been a lot of discussion just recently and this caused me to change to triphosphorous tubes which are fine. I don't have trouble with fluro strobe but this might be that I try and do most of my machinery work early in the evening as a consideration for the neighbours with noise - and I don't like working with machinery when I am tired. But that is me and this suits my work patterns. If you are concerned then try incandescent light. Low voltage I know little about.
I did originally have plans to work at night as you do but I am glad I didn't spend the extra money on special lights. Check recent discussion over the last 2 weeks - you will see some comment there.

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Originally Posted by Simmering

However, I am aware that fluros strobe (perhaps at 50 cycles?) and hence can cause spinning machinary parts to appear stationary. Hence the usual solution is to use an incandescent light (bulb) shining on the job as well. Is this really necessary / Is it a real problem?

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That is interesting about flouros strobing. When I was in the army with the Royal Australian Electrical and Mechanical Engineers attached to a Light Aid Detachment we had a technical bulletin came out about Strobing with flouros and if I remember rightly it referred to single flouros but not double flouros.

I have flouros in my shed both single and double and have never had any problem with strobing with lathes, bandsaws, circular saws, drill presses or any hand power tools.

Just my 2c worth.

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Originally Posted by Barry_White

That is interesting about flouros strobing. When I was in the army with the Royal Australian Electrical and Mechanical Engineers attached to a Light Aid Detachment we had a technical bulletin came out about Strobing with flouros and if I remember rightly it referred to single flouros but not double flouros.

I have flouros in my shed both single and double and have never had any problem with strobing with lathes, bandsaws, circular saws, drill presses or any hand power tools.

Just my 2c worth.

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Double fluoros are generally co phased to eliminate strobing. Right on Barry.

Barry,
I think the only time you'll notice the strobe effect of a fluoro is when they are the only light source (ie you've got a room that's got no daylight entering it and no incandescent lights) which is when it will make moving parts appear stationary. I guess it would only happen in the right conditions with the blade or bit running at a certain speed. Under these conditions the blade might appear to be hardly moving or perhaps running slowly backwards - like a wagon wheel in the old cowboy movies. I think most people hear "strobe effect" and think it'll look like a strobe light in a night club.

Mick

Thanks guys. I was aware that only a part moving at the exact same speed as the flicker of thelight would casue it to appear stationary. The fact about double fluros not flickering in sync is interesting. Sounds like I can get by with a mixture of good fluro (doubles included) lighting as well as perhaps a couple of other light sources for good measure.

I will search for some previous threads as suggested.

I always Know when my machines are switched on....... the make a noise.

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Originally Posted by journeyman Mick

Barry,
I think the only time you'll notice the strobe effect of a fluoro is when they are the only light source (ie you've got a room that's got no daylight entering it and no incandescent lights) which is when it will make moving parts appear stationary.

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Mick, you're describing my workshop, under the house, no windows, door usually closed and only fluoros and no incandescant lights. There are doubles and singles and I have never seen the strobe effects.


Peter.

The strobe effect is also relative to the speed of the machine operating so it will not effect all machinery, and like stated earlier, if it's on it makes a noise.

I thought that the strobing only happened with a single fluro
i have always ran double fluros and never had any problem

Not sure what co-phasing means but a double is just two singles in the same housing (2xballast, 2xstarter). :confused:

But wired opposite to each other to eliminate the strobing effect, one on, one off.

If you have single phase AC power and two fluorescent tubes connected I see no possible way to connect them in any form of anti-phase! The tube conducts in both directions once the lamp is running just as soon as the voltage aplied exceeds the strike voltage. If anyone can give me a good explanation to the contrary I will be pleased to read it.
Another point is that the degree of modulation of the light output is only about 10-15% from memory. Real "strobes" achieve about 50%, so the effect is not so great anyway. Even incandescent lamps have a small degree of light modulation, but much reduced due to the thermal inertia of the filament compared to the gas discharge of the TL.

Speaking of fluro's anyone in Adelaide get down to Paramont Browns and grab some, $154 box of 8x4' singles with triphospho's! $258 for box of 8 double's. They have vented diffusers for them there as well, purchased separately(add $8 per fitting).
They even got 10/15amp power points(HPM)at near half the trade price($10).

I'm also dubious about how a double fluoro can eliminate strobing. If you have three phase in your shed, you could have your lights on multiple circuits, each connected to a different phase. That would eliminate the problem (but would also involve paying your sparky extra ...)

If you only have single phase, an alternative approach would be to use an electronic ballast. All the ones I've seen rectify the supply and then use an inverter to power the tube. Since the inverter isn't phase-locked to the mains, all your lights should be out of phase with each other, eliminating strobing issues. Electronic ballasts are commonly available in two forms:
1) Replacements for the iron-core ballasts that come standard with fluoro battens.
2) Most (but not all) CFLs have a very low-tech electronic ballast in their base. To check for an electronic ballast, a simple test is to see how heavy the CFL is; an iron-core ballast is necessarily heavier than an electronic one. (If you're really keen, pull apart a dead CFL and inspect the ballast.)

I've gone the second route--I have a CFL mounted above my table saw. Given that CFLs are so cheap nowadays, I couldn't possibly justify the expense of option (1). Never had any strobing problems!
:)

Michael.

Two half wave rectifiers can be phased as described.

I seem to have started a bit of furore with the statement that double fluoros are co phased.

When we had the lighting put in the workshop I was concerned about strobing particularly around the lathe and for medical reasons.

To have a post that can be up to 35' long appearing to run backwards is a little disconcerting to say the least. Our lathes can all be switched into reverse so as you can see this is not as silly as it seems. They don't cut real well and it is most embarrassing.

The medical reason is that I have Menieres Disease and strobing throws my balance out somewhat. There are some who say I am unbalanced most of the time.

I asked the electrician about it and I was repeating what he told me that twin fluoros are co phased and run a little out of sync. with each other and should not be a problem.

He was partially right. At certain speeds the lathe will "slow strobe" if that makes sense. I have found the best way to fix this problem is to raise or lower the speed of the lathe a bit or switch on more lights which seem to eliminate the problem.

David L: The statement that if it makes a noise it is running is quite true when you only work by yourself but if you have 2 or more working with other machinery running it is very hard to tell what is going and what is not sometimes.

No furore , just a new concept that on the surface doesn't seem to be fair dinkum, which is why we need to pull it apart to see how it works. Maybe we need those Myth Buster blokes to look into it. :D

Iain, where do half wave rectifiers come into it? :confused:

Just thinking out loud, but if you used two half wave rectifiers, one on each light with the anode to one and the cathode to the other you would have opposing pulses, would probably work on incandescant lighting.
Having said that, might as well go for a full wave and stop all the stuffing around, or use a bloody candle.

[QUOTE=Iain]Just thinking out loud, but if you used two half wave rectifiers, one on each light with the anode to one and the cathode to the other you would have opposing pulses, would probably work on incandescant lighting.
Yeh! And get half the lummens from each TL!!!

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Originally Posted by robri

I have a 6x5m shed and have 3 banks of double fluros - the normal ones - and found that they weren't bright enough.

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hi there

i have a 6m x 9m m 2.7m shed with 6 double bright white fluros and it's heaps of light, it turns night into day thats for sure .. what i found that it's better to mount the lights on 1200mm x 800mm 16mm White board as it bounces the light down - well worth the extra $$

thanks

Justin

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Originally Posted by Iain

Just thinking out loud, but if you used two half wave rectifiers, one on each light with the anode to one and the cathode to the other you would have opposing pulses, would probably work on incandescant lighting.
Having said that, might as well go for a full wave and stop all the stuffing around, or use a bloody candle.

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Hmmm ... don't think this would work out. Several reasons I can think of:
1) As noted by jacko, you'll cut the duty cycle per tube by 50%.
2) The relatively long "off" period of each cycle would allow tube ionisation to drop noticeably, so you'd lose even more efficiency to increased resistance.
3) You'd kill the tube really quickly because all the filament sputtering would be concentrated on one end. (This is what causes the blackening of the tube ends.)
4) If one tube died, who knows what would happen to the current through the ballast, because half wave rectified current has a DC component. My guess is that the remaining tube would explode spectacularly due to excess current causing unchecked thermal expansion of the gas.

But the kicker is ... after all that, it wouldn't prevent strobing! Both tubes would still be phase-locked to the mains, and would provide very little light whenever the supply current drops to zero. You need some way to change the phase angle of the current, either by sourcing power from a different phase or by adding reactance to the circuit.

Michael.

PS. Personally, I prefer a CFL, but if you went with a candle, maybe you could cook your pancakes over it ... :)

I think the point may be lost. Flouros are good for gettingt rid of the dark spots in the shed and general lighting but they are a poor light to work under. There are far better lights for directly over the workbench or machines. Flouros are at their worst when there is a lot of reflective surfaces around.

Cheers

Just thought I'd add my 2 cents worth here:

Fluro's seem to be fine for general lighting but for lighting the exact area you are working on, one of the best things I did was to set up one of the new 1W luxeon LED units (3W would be better) on a free standing adjustable arm arrangement. I can move it anywhere around the workshop and position the light exactly where I need it. The LED's offer a very white light, run only slightly warm and best of all you can run them off one of your rechargeable drill batteries for hours (no cords!)

I used the body of the hand held torch that came with my Makita drill set having ripped of the light head and re-wiring the internals. For the light I used a 1W Luxeon sealed unit made for garden lighting which can handle any voltage input between 12 and 28 volts AC or DC. There are many options available and a 3W unit would be much better. I think Hotbeam supply a very good unit as the higher watt versions need much better cooling. The only downside is the initial cost but considering the life span is around 100,000 hours you won't be replacing it in a hurry!

Sounds a good idea.

Can I just confirm that you are just using a single 1W LED. If I do my maths right, a 1W lamp running off of a 14.4V 2Ah cordless battery, would draw only 0.07A and would last for 28 hours. A 3W LED would last for approx 8 hours.

I might give it a go.

I'm running a 12 volt 1.3Ah battery which seems to get around 3 to 4 hours out of it so your calculations would seem correct - I think the electronic converter inside the unit uses some power too. We use them for mountain biking off road at night and the 5 watt units are amazing but they run a bit hot to be standing still so the 3W unit would be a good choice.

I'll try and get a photo of my 'contraption' and post it in the near future...

If you are getting 3-4 hours out of a 12V 1.3Ah battery then it is probably drawing 3 or 4 Watts of power, so there is a reasonable amount used in the converter, but still pretty good. I think the 1W in LEDs refers to the light power rather than in an incandescent globe where it refers to the power drawn. Not sure though.

Any notion of half wave rectification doing anything for your strobing are a bit off.
the strobe frequency will 100Hz twice the mains frequency. By using the half wave rectification idea all you are doing is blocking each alternate half wave. you will still have 100Hz but at half the intensity.
As for the twin fluro idea the it sounds dodgy to me as well because both are connected to the same wave form and both wiil produce 100HZ.

The 3 phase idea I have heard is possible but is very expensixe & complex to wire and remember most of the fluro fittings and hardware will not be rated for 415V. this is a concern as ther will be 415V between adjacent tubes.

1 watt LEDs do draw 1 watt at about 4 volts but the current limiting circuit consume more power. example One 1 watt led and its drive circuit will draw about 3 watts from a 12 volt supply. A propperly driven 1 watt led is about as bright as a dolphin torch with a new battery & a kripton lamp.

I doubt if a properly maintained fluro would cause anybody "medical" problems. afterall the frame rate of TV os 50HZ as is some film projection.
If none of the above cause you a problem a fluro isnt likely to.
Get below 20Hz and I would expect problems.

Ther are some high frequency fluro drive circuits available that run at 30Khz or above. some of the 12v inverter units could be worth a look. In film & television there are some very funky high frequency drive units that produce very high quality, very high output from standard fluro tubes.

Fot the lathe you are probably better of with a good halogen work light.

cheers

To soundman, I suffer from Thygeson's SPK, which is an eye disease. One of the side effects is photo phobia, which in this case means a fear of bright light.

What happens is that my eyes (especially my right one) are sensitive to bright lights that have a point source, like car headlights at night.

However. I also found that as the cycle of the disease goes through it's stages I am aware of the fluorescent lights causing me problems. The problems I won't go into, but, suffice to say, after installing tri-phosphorus tubes in my little factory, virtually all problems associated with my malady that were light induced at work, disappeared.

It didn't matter if normal tubes were new and operating at correct voltage and frequency, they caused problems sometimes. After switching tubes and starters I haven't had a problem in the last 8 years.

Interestingly they are initially more expensive but become cost effective because they use less power and last far longer. We did the sums on a spreadsheet after the first lot needed replacing and the overall was approximately 5% less total outlay for outright cost of tubes used as they lasted over twice the length of time of conventional. When you add the power consumed, it's a clear cut answer of which is best.

When my new garage is built this year I'll be installing tri-phosphorus tubes for overall lighting with spotlighting where required by tungsten or similar.

Mick.

If you are worried about this you should perhaps use leading and or lagging ballasts as this is what they were designed for. they light the lamp at a different point in the waveform (the 240 v power) It would still be a good idea to user something to light spinning items(lathe etc, but this could be done with LED style downlight lamps

Jaycar have the LED lamps of various types

Lighting a big issue in my luthiers shop..started with in-ceiling halogens but found the intensity and colour of light was totally unsuitable. I now have double banks of fluros as well as the halogens on same circuit and lighting is much better. I also have 3-4 incandescant desk lamps which can be clamped to the benches and some of the jigs I use.

The strobing effect of fluros as I was once informed can be reduced / eliminated by using honeycomb diffusers, those hard many faceted covers that fit over the tubes. Always fitted them in ships engine room workshops and never had a problem with lathe work and strobing.




The trouble with life is there's no background music.

I've got a 6m x 6m shed with 4 double fluoros on each side (& white painted walls). Heaps of light and never had any strobe effects.

Interesting discussion.

Latest lighting technology to the rescue :) use T5 fluorescent lamps (just becomming available here in South Africa, so should already be freely available in Aussieland... T5 fluoros are VERY bright (at least double the luminance of normal tubes), have very good CRI (that's colour renditioning index), similar to the Tri-phosphors, and run off high frequency electronic balasts, thus no visible flickering.

Alternatively, I would suggest using high frequency electronic ballasts with either power compact fluorescents or normal T8 tubes - one would still get the flicker free light, albeit with reduced intensity...

Regards,
Hennie Landman

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Originally Posted by Ashore

The strobing effect of fluros as I was once informed can be reduced / eliminated by using honeycomb diffusers, those hard many faceted covers that fit over the tubes. Always fitted them in ships engine room workshops and never had a problem with lathe work and strobing.

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Also worth having as a safety item....if you swing a long piece of wood around & hit bare tubes....glass everywhere. Also they should be hung from chain for the same reason.

I've got 7 double fluros in my shed all with difusers, no flicker probs once tubes are warmed up. Also when I wired it I put a sensor light in that's right in the middle of the shed & if I'm just messing around (not playing with sharp things) this is plenty of light.

Reg

OK I will admit that I am new to this fluorecent lighting thing and am rather interested as I need to select fittings and tubes from my new workshop. It seems that people are recommending either Tri-phosphor or T5 tri-phosphor tubes.

I had a look at one suppliers site http://www.thornlight.com.au/ and it seems that the tri-phospor tubes are available in a range of colours 2700K, 3000K, 3500K, 4000K, 5000K and 6000K. The T5 tri-phosphor dont have any colour choices. I would presume that the T5's are the premium choice with an associated high price? Am I correct? I dont mind paying extra if the benefits are worthwhile.

Should I be looking for any special light fittings and diffusers or will any old fitting do? Can you give me a specific model number to help me out so I know what I need to buy.

Redgy - I believe that you are a sparky. If I or anyone else were putting in 2 banks of double fluoros would you wire them in one circuit or 2 - my space is 6m x 6m.

Cheers

I've got only a couple of fluros.......but I've got 4 of those cheap flexible arm ones from ikea,bunnys etc, evenly distributed about the shed that I mostly use....... probably shouldn't suggest this but instead of using 60 watt light bulbs in the flexible arm lights , use 150 watt $5 numbers.....those big spotlight ones people use at the front of their houses to scare people off.....well, they fit,,, just... usually at the socket it says something like 'max 60 watts' which is why I probably shouldn't suggest it.....still my shed hasn't burn down yet, touch wood, and I have been using them the best part of a year......I don't see why its a problem, the heat build up from these spotlights doesn't seem to be significantly more that regular bulbs.........somebody no doubt knows better on this.........anyway the point is they bring so much more light into exactly where you want it........its made all the difference for me, especially when sharpening......

[QUOTE=apricotripperstill my shed hasn't burn down yet, touch wood, and I have been using them the best part of a year......I don't see why its a problem, the heat build up from these spotlights doesn't seem to be significantly more that regular bulbs...[/QUOTE]Mate
I think the problem is the current you draw through the flex from the power point to the bulb it will cause the flex to harden and fail over time , rather than the heat from the 150 watt bulb being the problem


Rgds
Russell


The trouble with life is there's no background music.

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Originally Posted by Ashore

I think the problem is the current you draw through the flex from the power point to the bulb it will cause the flex to harden and fail over time , rather than the heat from the 150 watt bulb being the problem

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Thanks Russell
Does that mean all I should do is replace the flex with thicker power cord now to solve the problem ?