Defamation

No! not against yous blokes - I would never dream of it.

A small club here in this town (130 members) has posted the minutes of the last AGM. In these minutes there is mention of a member and an allegation of defamation.

The minutes read something like this: (member) raised a question that he said was of urgent and serious content, he then defamed two unnamed committee persons.

There is no mention of what the defamation is, and nor could there be. I was at that AGM and the member did not say anything defamatory against anyone. He was pointing out an abuse of the constitution.

The meeting contained a heated exchange between the member and the then Secretary, but the then sec. became the new president and had that accusation of defamation entered into the minutes.

These minutes are on constant display in a public place and the member is well known in the town.

Q. Is it possible to legally defame an unnamed person.

Q In displaying this accusation with the members name, is it libel.

Q What should the member do, he cannot afford a legal challenge.

Q. What would appropriate wording be for a letter to a hostile committee for this member. They cannot expel him from the club because all he did was speak his peace at the AGM, his right as a member.

Go for it lads

Peter R.

Just offer them pancakes, and it will all settle down.
Sounds like a serious case of pancake withdrawl symptoms to me!!

Al :D

PS you aint getting away without a reference to pancakes.

It could be a shortage of flapjacks too.

Peter,

The pursuit of great pancakes and flapjacks as our learned members have pointed out would be better than worrying about small-minded people on committees in small towns. :D

However I presume this is important to you, btw are you the person concerned, so here are some general observations.

The pointing out of abuses of the constitution and, as you said, the heated exchange of words that followed could well have been defamatory and the minute writer may well be correct. Without a transcript of the proceedings it will be very hard to prove contrary.

The other aspect of this is the way it is described in the minutes. Generally the responsibility for the accuracy of the draft minutes rest with the minute writer until either the clubs committee ratifies them (if the constitution allows this) or the subsequent meeting of the club. If the committee has ratified them they become the minutes of the meeting and the problem is with the club as a whole or they remain draft minutes. The publishing of the minutes or draft minutes outside the club is again a question of the constitution. Does it allow it or not or does it have to be ratified first by the members.

Before doing anything these matters should be considered and legal advice sought. Even if the legal advice is in your favour you should seriously consider doing nothing about it as it will cost you money without any guarantee of recovering it and you live in a small town where everybody will talk about it until the cows come home. You may well win but lose money and have a reputation for being the b*****d that ruined the club. :eek: :eek:


Thus my advice is offer them pancakes :D :D :D and forget about it.


Peter.

Try Caramel Eclairs, those sticky toffee lollies with the streak of chocolate in the middle.

Chances are that most are of an age where the toffee will stick their plates together for a good half hour, and there will be a period of blissful silence, interrupted by only the occasional gurgly hissy sound as a top plate comes a bit loose mid suck.

P
:D :D :D

Furgetabartit. It will all be the same in 100 years.

Concentrate on the lady in Canada :)

Rocker

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Originally Posted by Rocker

Furgetabartit. It will all be the same in 100 years.

Concentrate on the lady in Canada :)

Rocker

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You are all correct, of course, except the pancake eaters. Alcake must dream of nothing else - Hey! Al there is more to life you know? I know :o another lady in Canada or even a bloke if you like.;)

To answer a question: No it wasn't me. As you all know I am not confrontational, am I? Seriously it wasn't me...Aw! Come on fellas!!!!!:p

I am off to Ontario tonight, via the net, so by morning I will have forgotten all about it...about what?:cool:

Peter R

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Originally Posted by Peter R

Hey! Al there is more to life you know?
Peter R

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If theres more to life, how come all you do is sook and whinge about life then?? :confused: :confused: :confused:

Mate all the sooking and whingeing you do on this BB, you wouldnt find time to eat a pancake!!

Al :confused:

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Originally Posted by ozwinner

If theres more to life, how come all you do is sook and whinge about life then?? :confused: :confused: :confused:

Mate all the sooking and whingeing you do on this BB, you wouldnt find time to eat a pancake!!

Al

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Nasty, nasty Man...But you're cute. http://instagiber.net/smiliesdotcom/...nkai/flipa.gif Hijacked, an' all.

I just did a quick bit of researching to see if I could find the reason for Al's outburst; By George, I think I've got it.

In the last 4 weeks Al has had 3 posts 2 had zero replies and one had 28, now folks the one with the 28 was very, very much a whinge and a sook, telling us what he likes and doesn't like. Hmmmmm!

Happy New Year AL and all you other scumbags to coin an Al phrase.


Peter R.

Careful Peter!!!

Zeddy doesn't like blokes calling other blokes cute!!

(Where is the ape-man? I don't remember him asking if he could leave??)

:D :D :D

P

Here is a reasonable summary of the principles of defamation. It is a general summary, not a statement of the law that applies to the situation you describe.

http://www.artslaw.com.au/reference/infodefamation/

The law varies from State to State, despite the efforts of various bodies to have it unified across the country.

Slander is spoken (transient) defamation. Libel is written (more permanent) defamation.

Generally the only people who make lots of money from defamation actions are the lawyers.

Cheers
Rob

Sounds like any club, once on a committee you need to invest in a kevlar vest, every bastard is out to get you but no one will step into the breech.
Had my fill and haven't been on a committee for over ten years now, and loving it.
If you offer them chocolate eclairs, use laxettes for the outer coating then you will have the satifaction of giving them what they have given you ;)

Club politics Peter - live with it until you find yourself putting posts on woodworking bulletin boards and then walk away. The club isn't worth it. **** like this is the precursor to the end or at least an unhappy time. :mad:

On the other hand, laxettes in the pancakes would certainly go a long way towards evening out the flow. :D

Richard

Sturdee raised and important point.

Generally it is up to the minute taker to ensure the minutes truly reflect the discussion at the meeting. It is not up to the minute taker to interpret whether those words were nonsense, important, lovely or defamatory.

You have misunderstood Al.

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Originally Posted by Wood Borer

Generally it is up to the minute taker to ensure the minutes truly reflect the discussion at the meeting. It is not up to the minute taker to interpret whether those words were nonsense, important, lovely or defamatory.

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Well you blokes don't want to elect me as your secretary then!!!

:D :D :D
P

Yes I can see it now:

"The treasurer, finding it difficult to speak without removing his tongue from the president's backside, said ..."

:D :D

People join committees for different reasons. I am involved in a few but my reason is to get the show on the road and to contribute whereas a minority of others see it as an opportunity to exercise power and control. Possibly because of their inadequate anatomy or their otherwise boring lives.

Unfortunately these people discourage others from joining a comittee or a club which is a great shame because clubs can offer much more than the sum of the individuals.

Let's hope any clubs experiencing personality problems can resolve their problems swiftly so their members can get back to woodwork.

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Originally Posted by Wood Borer

Let's hope any clubs experiencing personality problems can resolve their problems swiftly so their members can get back to woodwork.

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I fully support that, clubs can quickly be torn apart by a few members to the detriment of all of them.


Peter.

having been minute taker on a number of committees ( no I haven't got mug tattooed on my forhead but sometimes it feels like I must have ... why do they always pick on me !!!!) I generally make entries such as

" there was a heated conversation between X, Y, Z on the subject of whatever" and if I feel it appropriate, ( and frequently it isn't imho worth recording the ins and outs of the discussion), I often summarise the arguments without attributing the opinions to anyone.

So for instance if there were a discussion of whether J not present at the meeting would make a good coach or not I would not record that the President thought that he or she couldn't coach his way out of a paper bag, I would record however that there was a discussion of who to approach for as coach and that the name of J was put forwards for consideration.

Anyone should be able to challenge the minutes of the previous meeting at the next committee meeting and if you feel strongly that something is incorrect then you should do so. Even if the committee refuses to strike the item from the previous minutes they should record that there was a disagreement on the accuracy of the minutes. Its up to you whether you feel its worthwhile attempting to put the record right. I certainly wouldn't go down the legal path unless you're feeling very very flush with cash.

It could be worth searching out some guidelines for minute writing either in the library or the web and either passing them to the new minute taker for consideration or asking them to be discussed at a future committee meeting.

Jackview,

If ever you want to volunteer for such a position, please let me know, your type are extremely difficult to find. :(

I know of such a position coming up in October 2005. :cool:

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Originally Posted by Wood Borer

Jackview,

If ever you want to volunteer for such a position, please let me know, your type are extremely difficult to find. :(

I know of such a position coming up in October 2005. :cool:

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Rob, she said she HASNT got mug tattooed on her head.

Al :p

Perhaps Allana might want the job? :o

At least the meetings would be quick! Probably as short as her dress :eek:

600 seconds to holidays (I'm not counting)!

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Originally Posted by jackiew

It could be worth searching out some guidelines for minute writing either in the library or the web and either passing them to the new minute taker for consideration or asking them to be discussed at a future committee meeting.

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Agreed.

As minutes are there to record decisions made by the club ( or company ) I feel that often too much extraneous rubbish is put in the minutes, usually because the committee has not taken the trouble to find out what is legally required. That is what often causes problems with the members.

Having had on a number of occasion been required to submit company minutes in evidence to either a court or the ATO I have always advocated and insisted on the resolution approach rather than the chatty approach to minutes.


Thus my minutes would show :

Resolved that ( either after discussion or without discussion or unanimously or
after a vote being taken ) the club etc.....................

and

A motion was tabled that the club etc........................... After discussion ( if applicable ) a vote was taken and the motion was not carried.

Details of the discussion is irrevelant once the decision is made and so need not be recorded. The names of the proposer and seconder of a motion is also not recorded for once a decision is made it is the decision of the club as a whole and not the individuals who may not necessarily have agreed with the proposed motion. Often sub-committee members propose a motion from that sub-committee that they themselves may not agree with.

Taking the above approach makes keeping minutes easy and keeps you out of trouble and out of courts.


Peter.

My brief, unsavoury and totally unsatisfactory brush with the laws of defamation echoes previously mentioned statements. That is, there are no real winners with the exception of the lawyers.

Some time back at the end of last century my dispute took me to a defamation lawyer specialist who had been recommended by a lawyer relative. The lawyer's company was retained by a daily newspaper for this purpose.

I commented to my relative later that I had been charged $250 for an hour consultation. She sheepishly said that was quite a good price! If you go to court (perish the thought) consider this. A friend only a year or two later was charged $800 for half a day by a junior (apprentice in any other trade) barrister who admitted he did not have any idea what the case was about. Full price; three grand plus per day.

The law is not for ordinary people. It is not affordable without having vast financial reserves or mortgaging your house.

At the end of the day in my instance I just conceded because I was going to

1. Cost myself a fortune.
2. Bring the institution I was criticising into disrepute and that was not my agenda.
3. Create misery for myself and family.

In conceding or just backing down, the perpertrators continue to get away with their misdemeanours, but most things in life are a compromise. The best solution is to resolve such disputes in private without recourse to third parties of any description.

Incidentally the specialist did mention that the laws of defamation were not clear cut. On the contrary their are quite vague and open to interpretation. The awards made can be crushing. Ask the writer, Bob Ellis. He lost a defamation case to Abbott and Costello,who are not the comedy act that some would have you believe, but senior ministers in the NSW Government.

I suspect the indistict guidelines suit the lawyers very well. I sometimes think I should have tried law (for the money), but I have trouble sleeping as it is.

Regards and Happy New Year

Paul

A friend of mine went to court recently, and he had some dude in a wig represent him.

All the wig wearer did was talk to the judge at the bench ( is that right?), and it cost my friend $6000, all for 1 hours work from the wig wearer.
And they recon brickies are expensive. :p

Al

This issue reminded me of a story, but the current forum is a place for serious discussion, not frivolous comment.... Eh this may not be entirely true, but anyway I thought Woodies jokes might be a better place. So for those of you with nothing better to do on New year's Eve and the rest of you who visit this debate belatedly, you may like to visit Woodies Jokes - "Engineer in Hell" and see the story inspired by Peter R's thread.

Regards and Happy New Year

Paul

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jackiew

having been minute taker on a number of committees ( no I haven't got mug tattooed on my forhead but sometimes it feels like I must have ... why do they always pick on me !!!!) .

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Probably because you're a woman and therefore must be able to type ;)

Or could it be because you are usually able to cut through the bs?
Thanks for your wise comments and humour through the year.

As a wise old man seaid to me once in similar circumstances, "ya all carrin' on like bunch of school girls with torn panties."

Kind of puts in perspective I reckon.