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Hi,
I have recently finished a rattle for a friends grandson. It was turned on the lathe sanded and then finished in a wax polish that I made. Mineral turps and beeswax. Is that a good finish for little kids. From my understanding the turps evaporates and only the wax is left. Is that right? Can you suggest any other finishes that would be suitable? I plan on making some more rattles and don't want to make kids sick.
Todd
Shellac is apparently used to coat tablets so must be safe. And canuba wax is used to polish apples and fruit I think: think: So you can eat that too. :D
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Originally Posted by toddbron
TL is quite correct. Neither shellac nor carnauba wax contains anything toxic, but if applying wax in paste form, I would be concerned about the solvent. Perhaps you could just apply the wax (in natural form) directly to the turnings.
Doesn't Ubeaut produce something suitable for turnings that's baby safe?
Turps won't really flash evaporate like a more powerful solvent - more like it will soak in and slowly evaporate, slowed down by the wax.
Note that gum turpentine (ie the natural product made from trees and so on) is more posionous than mineral turpentine. Gum turpentine has benzene (a known carcinogen), while mineral turps is closer to benzine (which is just the usual, run of the mill poisonous).
Real safe is shellac, baby oil/ parafin, bees wax, carnuba wax...they all get used in food processing or in makeup and have a long history of human contact.
Effectively safe are the majority of modern paint and varnish finishes. Lead and other heavy metals have not been used as a pigment for decades, and modern finishes are resonably inert once they dry.
Basically, if you let your kid suck on plastic dummies or have plastic toys, you are looking at the same level of risk...well, there's probably less risk of choking from paint!!
Not many places mark their finishes as food safe, as to do so (in the largest market, the US) requires FDA approved lab testing of every single batch made, which is an expensive process.
So you can happily cover the toys with something that oozes out of an insect's bum, gets snapped off trees in possibly heavy metal/diesel fume/industrial chemical poluted countryside, gets 'refined' (ie the larger bits of wood and dead insects removed) by minimum wage workers in a dusty indian village with no OHAS regs at all, and transported in big bundles wrapped in old cotton...or use something decanted from a nice shiny 200 litre drum that has been industrally prepared!
Ubeaut's Shellac, Traditional Wax and Food Safe Oil - all are Baby safe :2tsup:
Master splinter could you point me to the research on this , I'm an artist with a prior history of lymphoma and all of my discussions with conservators, chemists, toxicologists and my oncologists have suggested that turpentine from pine species was at worst an irritant but was free of benzene unlike most petroleum distillates which whith the exception of white spirit ( i' referring to the commonly used names in the art materials industry) all contained traces of benzene , the worst ,I had been warned was mineral turpentine.Quote:
Note that gum turpentine (ie the natural product made from trees and so on) is more posionous than mineral turpentine. Gum turpentine has benzene (a known carcinogen), while mineral turps is closer to benzine (which is just the usual, run of the mill poisonous).
Also your info on the toxicology of linseed oils was new to me, likewise any links you can provide would be appreciated as I know many of the top artists paint makers in Australia and around the world and this would have a huge effect on the production of oil paint.
Many thanks
Ian Wells
Yes Ian, it would be interesting to know.
Whilst modern paint and varnishes do not contain lead and heavy metals, many contain other nasties......have you tried reading MSDs many say nothing anyway. If manufactures do not openly declare their ingredients to the last percentage, then how can we as consumers make an informed decision?
The concoction out of the 200 lt drum...made with what chemicals. Many modern day chemicals have not even been tested out ...and then to produce, what other chemicals are require to e.g. mask any smells? And then apply this to a toy?
Why not use product with ingredients made from abundant raw materials. Wouldn’t you rather use something found in nature then a man made concoction of ???? Jim Carroll has the Livos range of oils. These are not only plant based; they are also food safe and have a full ingredient listing to boot.
wow - looks like I opened a can of worms on this one. I think we all can agree - the important thing is to use materials that are safe for our kids and other young ones. That is the reason I do wood working - to create for my boys and give them a love and appreciation for natural things - not mass produced plastic.
Todd
What about PURE Tung Oil? Wouldn't Pure Tung Oil would be a viable option, if you knew your child did not have a nut allergy that is? Can't Pure Tung can be used on food use products like chopping boards and bowls etc...
"In its pure form, tung oil is a non-toxic finish that is ideal for surfaces that are expected to come into contact with food. This includes wood cutting boards, salad bowls, salt and pepper mills and any other project imagineable." - WWD.com
Tung oil comes from the tung nut...so for people with severe nut allergies it could be a rather fatal non-starter.
As for solvents based on turpentine oil, it may pay to be careful of the exact source:
"Turpentine oil and l-pinene, its major constituent, were shown to promote skin tumour development in the rabbit but not in the mouse. It is possible...due to different compositions of the oils used in these experiments." The Carcinogenicity of Essential Oils, Flavors and Spices: A Review - http://cancerres.aacrjournals.org/co.../2372.full.pdfl-pinene has also been mentioned in relation to components in tobacco smoke: Priority Ingredients
(Non mineral) turpentine is made either by scoring and collecting the resinous exudate from a pine tree (kittens, puppies and rainbows optional, depending on season) and distilling it, or by turning the whole tree into a mass of splinters, chucking them into a big pressure cooker with a good helping of caustic soda, and boiling for a while before scooping the chips out to make paper pulp and vacuum distilling the remaining slurry.
Which one of these processes results in a safer product (or if safety is in fact related to the species of pine being processed) I don't know.
And who here (without googling) would dare put dihydroxficocerylic acid - CH3CH2CH2(CHOH)(CH2)7CHOH⋅COOH - on a toy for a kid???
Yes (as can beeswax), but only in their natural state and not when made into paste wax with the addition of one or more solvents.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chloe Taylor
Pure Turpentine
Signs and symptoms of exposure to this material through breathing, swallowing, and/or passage of the material through the skin may include: stomach or intestinal upset (nausea, vomiting, diarrhea) irritation (nose, throat, airways), central nervous system depression (dizziness, drowsiness, weakness, fatigue, nausea, headache, unconsciousness), and death.
I was told by a medico many years ago that pure turpentine absorbed through the pores of the skin could cause kidney failure whilst fumes and absorption could cause depression, paranoia and a few other mental and physical problems whereas mineral turpentine did not. Still has it's list of problems but definitely not as bad as the ones associated with the pure stuff.
We use Mineral Turpentine instead of Pure Turpentine because in the long run it's much safer both for us and the end user especially when handled and inhaled.
As for the foodsafe/babysafe bit of this thread.
- As someone already said pretty much all surface coatings are safe (once the solvents have dried off).
- Avoid anything that has high aromatics. Strong lingering smell.
- Most waxes will mark pretty easily with baby juice and baby will juice it with sticky fingers, dribble, suck, etc
- Carnauba wax is used as a polish for many sweeties, Smarties, Easter eggs to name just 2.
- Shellac is used on fruit to help preserve it (we bring our shellac into the country in conjunction with one of the biggest manufacturers of fruit coatings in Australia)
- Shellawax or Shellawax Glow friction polishes are baby safe finishes for on the lathe and everything used in the is also used in the pharmaceutical and confectionery industry except for the mineral turpentine which flashes off under friction when the product is applied.
- Woodturners Waxtik is also safe for this use. Even if the name might suggest otherwise.
Shellac is safe for use contrary to Master Splinter's little speech above. No matter what happens to it before it is dissolved for use. It is dissolved in pure alcohol and finally filtered before use rendering pretty much all that came before superfluous. Otherwise it wouldn't be so widely used in the food, pharmaceutical, cosmetic and confection industry.
I was just searching the web for the same thing, and discovered <cite>www.ecolour.com.au/Nursery-Paint,
so you may be interested to check that.
</cite>
Hmmm! No msds, lots of guff about VOC's but no mention of their plasticisers, pigments or biocides used? Apparently they use recycled engine oil as a component...not sure if that's meant to be a selling point? May be a great product but more info is needed if I were to specify it.
Interesting discussion even though starteds ome time back.
If one does not know the ingredients in a product, how is one to make an informed decision.
The Mineral Spirits of USA equates to Mineral Turpentine in Aus, also known as petro pine or just plain turps.
The closest thing to turps is White Spirits also used for most of the same things, it a little cheaper (or used to be) and supposedly has less smell than the turps. Both turps and white spirits are pertochemicals and both are 100% Liquid Hydrocarbons.
Pure turpentine (or gum turpentine) is distilled from turpentine pine trees and it can rattle your brain.
Tung oil is also known to cause issues with those that have sensitivities. But then again there are those that are sensitive to linseed as well.
The Livos products have full ingredient listing and the Kunos is certified food safe.
Ian,
What kind of paints do you use and on what medium?
My paintings are mainly india ink and oil colour on Gesso sottile( technical gelatine and calcium carbonates/sulphates).
I'll also sometimes use gum arabic, casein, distemper,tragacanth and a variety of waxes and plant derived drying oils . I use as my primary solvent pure gum turpentine, but in tiny quantities, mainly as a solvent for Dammar (which I'm allergic to!).
I also use a refined aliphatic distillate of petroleum and white spirit for some special purposes, I find mineral turps leaves a oily non drying residue in my paint films and gives me headaches to boot.
I'll use all pigments, including heavy metal salts, but mainly more inert ones, but treat all of them, as if they were accumulating poisons. Clean up is done with an oil rinse and Marseilles soap not a solvent.
I'm a huge advocate of lac as an interior finish, all my floors are done with button lac and wax and I've used shellac to stabilise and isolate the prior paintwork in some areas of our house before repainting (used a fairly benign acrylic that I researched, would have preferred not to, but swmbo vetoed me repainting in distemper).:)