Is there ever an easy way...?

G'day, all;
My son's teacher has roped me in to help finish the table tops in their classroom for use in the coming year, twelve in all. They are made from Vic Ash (or similar) T&G boards and have apparently been used for several years in their raw state.

The final finish will be subjected to a lot of hard use including exposure to water, clay, paint etc. We (teacher and I) are in agreement that we would like to avoid polyurethane finishes. And so the question is: armed only with a 1/3 sheet sander, a shop vac and grim detemination, what do I use to finish these tables? I am leaning towards hard burnishing oil, after searching the forums; I am just a little afraid of the wet sanding aspects due to a lack of tools and experience.

Please bear in mind that the tables only have to look good for a year, before we shift classrooms again and they become some other Dad's problem! BTW, I may be able to borrow/hire a better sander if necessary, but there ain't one on the Christmas list this year.

Any advice will be gratefully accepted.
Regards,
Russel.

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The final finish will be subjected to a lot of hard use including exposure to water, clay, paint etc. We (teacher and I) are in agreement that we would like to avoid polyurethane finishes.

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Why? They are work surfaces and should be treated as such. Horses for courses. They are not works of art.

Sand them back and lacquer them. Quick and easy. Easy to clean up mess on them and they come up looking good every time.

Fair point, , and I admit it's kind of hard to explain what my (our) prejudice against plastic finishes is...it basically boils down to using as natural a finish as possible while still acheiving a reasonable amount of durability. Plus the protocol at our school is that whatever the teacher wants for her class, she gets, and she hasn't done us wrong yet. (Our children have the same teacher from classes one to six, so theres a strong parent-teacher relationship, if that helps to explain a bit).

I suppose my question would be better phrased (in part) as "...and what if the teacher says you can't use lacquer?".

Cheers,
Rus.

My finish of choice is lacquer, but for the workbenches you describe Polyurethane is by far the best choice.

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Originally Posted by Rusty

"...and what if the teacher says you can't use lacquer?".

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Your answer should be "... rope in another dad for , the Oracle :D , has spoken"


Peter.

I depends a bit on how much time you can spend on it. Presumably you don't necessarily want to go to school every evening to work on this.

If so, you are still looking at a minimum of 2 days: one day sanding back and puting the first coat on of whatever, then after a day light sanding again and applying the 2nd coat. Assuming you can do all the desks in one go.

I would forget about wet sanding - that is only necessary if you want to fill the grain to achieve a particular quality sheen - IMHO quite unnecessary for school desks.

Here is what I would do if it absolutely HAS to be oiled, but it means 3-4 days:

After sanding, 2 coats of Organoil Hard Burninshing Oil, each allowed to soak in and excess wiped off after 1 hour (1-2 days). Simple, anyone can do it. You could at the first coat point decide if you want to stain the wood a bit, to mix in a suitable stain; I recently used Feast Watson Prooftint (jarrah) mixed in with the oil with fantastic results. The grain is subtly highlighted instead of obscured.

After each coat of oil is dry, rub down with 000 or 0000 plastic scouring pad (grey or white). This will smooth the grain. Finally, one or 2 coats of Danish oil also wiped on and off again (last day, one day per coat). This will harden the surface. Still dead easy, anyone can do it. If you used Rustin's, it is food safe.

Organoil alone will not be durable enough - it will likely stain with all the playdough and water paint, not to mention not be scratch resistant.

Another possibility is the Organoil danish oil finish. Non toxic non polyurethane, does not require wet sanding (which by the way is not that hard) and does leave a durable finish. I have not had a problem with oiled surfaces for durability, gun stocks have traditionaly been oiled and I have seen them get plenty of abuse and still be ok. You will get less staining on an oil finish than a lacquered or urethaned one, once the lacquer etc scratches and you are left with bare wood exposed. Scratches will definetly occur as it is a school bench.

Thanks jur, that seems a little less daunting than I'd imagined, albeit time consuming. How little can I get away with sanding? (Yeah, I know I'm lazy).
I assume I don't have to use wet and dry paper if I'm skipping the wet sanding phase- I'll be using ordinary brown paper hardware stuff. Will 0000 steel wool be ok? I dunno if I can get hold of scouring pads.

BTW, Peter, I'd handball it to another Dad if I could- I was just in the wrong place in the wrong time! I only hope that serving a worthy cause redeems me for defying The Oracle!

Thanks, Gents,
Rus.
P.S. Just spotted your post, PAH1, will have a look at danish oil.

0000 steel wool will be OK; I prefer the Norton scouring pads these days - less mess. I got them at Mitre 10 Mega a few weeks ago. Haven't seen them at Bunnies. But ordinary kitchen sponge-backed scouring pads will probably be OK - buy them dirt cheap in bulk at Bunnies in the kithen supplies dept.

If you follow what I outlined before, you don't need to do any sanding in between - the wool rubbing is just for de-nibbing, and you can even use the pads to rub on the stuff and denib at the same time and so eliminate the between-coats rubbing - just wipe off any excess after 30 minutes or so. The first 2 coats of oil can be done in one session in this weather - the very first coat will be dry by the time you done all desks, the second will dry in no time if you put them in a warm sunny spot, but make sure there is no pooling of oil when you do. The first coat of Danish oil can then go on already in the first session. Wipe on, wait for penetration, wipe off.

I haven't used Organoil's Danish Oil; it says on the tin NO benchtops. I wrote to them to ask why but got no answer. I suspect it is durability reasons. I would be inclined to try their Danish oil. Also food safe. If you do, then you could probably forego the initial coats of oil and stay with 3-4 coats of the Danish Oil, but I don't know drying time.

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Originally Posted by jur

I haven't used Organoil's Danish Oil; it says on the tin NO benchtops. I wrote to them to ask why but got no answer. I suspect it is durability reasons. I would be inclined to try their Danish oil. Also food safe. If you do, then you could probably forego the initial coats of oil and stay with 3-4 coats of the Danish Oil, but I don't know drying time.

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At the canberra woodshow I asked the exact same thing. I think it is actually because they are pushing the hard burnishing oil, which is another tung based product, and the fact that it does not result in the high surface finish that you get from burnishing. The chemistry of the surface would be exactly the same with either product, the issue may be the penetration into the surface of the wood and the thickness of the surface finish.

There are three categories of finishes
1/ Good
2/ Cheap
3/ Easy

any one finish can only come under 2 catergories, so
Good and cheap, won't be easy
Good and easy, won't be cheap
Cheap and easy, won't be good.

How does this help ..... it doesn't but it is really clever :D

Too true, Dave;
Alright, gentlemens, thanks for all your input. If I've read and understood everything correctly (unlikely) then I should be able to:
-sand all table tops down to a lazy 220 or so;
-brush on hard burnishing oil, wait an hour then wipe off the excess;
-wait a day then scour and repeat;
-wait another day and then apply two light coats of danish oil, the second being ok to apply as soon as the first is dry.
-perhaps a final scour/sand before school commences?

Or skip the hard burnishing and use 3 or 4 coats of Danish oil. Any thoughts on a wax top coat? If I'm on the right track then I'm all set to tell Teacher my wise recommendations. All my own work, of course. I might even get a star.

Glad to hear that wet sanding isn't that hard cos I've dobbed myself in to make some actual furniture for the preps, too. I hope not all of you are going away for Christmas because I'm going to need some serious hand holding for that one.

Thanks again,
Russel, the Nervous Novice.

Whoa. I can see my posts have been highly confusing. Here it is again, with some simplifications, this time hopefully clear:

1. Sand. (don't use that crappy brown el cheapo sandpaper - it does not work, the grit falls off. Get enough of the good stuff.)
2. 50% thinned Organoil's Hard Burnishing Oil rubbed on with scouring pad, flood the wood with oil so it can penetrate deeply. Thoroughly wipe off any excess after 30 minutes. Allow to dry, perhaps in the sun if necessary.
3. Repeat.
4. Danish Oil, rubbed on with scouring pad. Wipe excess after waiting for penetration. Up to this step can be done consecutively in one day.
5. repeat step 4 after waiting for it to dry.

PS When you rub the oil on with the scouring pad, don't apply much pressure - you only want to get the wood smooth, not remove the previous layer. By rubbing in the oil with a pad, you eliminate the need for sanding/scouring between coats.

PPS I think you can use Organoil's Danish oil for all of the above steps 2-5, but I don't know what drying time it needs. It is likely that drying in the sun will allow you to the whole thing in 1 day. The first 2 coats are thinned 50% with turps or white spirits to aid penetration.

PPPS Do the underside as well - just saturate with oil.

Thanks for clearing that up, jur, I think I was making a lot of unnecessary trouble for myself. Final question, i hope is: what do you call good sandpaper, and do I have to go to a specialist to get it? Hare & Forbes in Melb is close to me, but I don't think they carry that kind of gear.

Rus.

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Originally Posted by Rusty

Final question, i hope is: what do you call good sandpaper, and do I have to go to a specialist to get it?

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Any Norton paper, get it at Bunnings. That light brown stuff I once bought was dead cheap for quite a stack of paper, was made in China and they apparently used spit to stick the grit to the paper.

FWIW - here's what Id do... early morning - belt sand with 120 grit. Then brush on (or better, spray on if you can) a heavy coat of Feast Watson FloorSeal (Tung Oil based and VERY durable). Wait about 6 hours. Sand back with an orbital (240 or 320 grit). Apply second coat of FloorSeal. Go home and enjoy a beer. Job is done. And looks great. About 100 man hours of work before the organoil is even beginning to look good. Been down that road too.

I'm sure I read the teach doesn't want "polyurethane finishes".

Danish oil is basically watered down polyurethane, and yes PAH1, I'm sorry to burst your bubble but that also including Organoil's Danish which definitely has a poly content.

Why mess around with all this when as suggests a couple of coats of polyu will do the job admirably. Not only that but it will also give the children a good durable, clean and healthy surface to work on. By the way Polyurethane is not a lacquer but a varnish (or about as close as you can get to one today) so you wouldn't be going against the teach's wishes.

The oils in the situation you are talking about would most likely be next to useless. The only sensible, reasonably inexpensive, relatively easy and basically foolproof finish is the poly. But hey, if that's not what she wants, she's the one with the degree and would surely know best, as you say, "she hasn't done you wrong yet".

Cheers - Neil :)

PS And this is coming from someone who reckons polyurethane is absolutely horrid stuff.

PPS If you want to go a bit more environmentally friendly you could always use the water based poly. Now thar's definitely not a lacquer, probably not even classed as a varnish. Personally I just call it STUFF!! :eek: Mainly because that's what it does to fine furniture. However it would probably be great for your table tops.

Whoa..... Where did that one come from? I gotta start typin faster. Good suggestion Richard.

Cheers - Neil :D

Morning, all;
All good suggestions and I think the Floorseal might be the way to go. I should add that some confusion may have been caused by my not knowing the difference between a laquer and a varnish.

Neil, I had read some of your previous posts about the polyu. content of Danish oil, But I was prepared to conveniently forget that fact in order to expidate the job, if you know what I mean. I have great respect for the teacher in question, but she's not a furniture maker/finisher, and I'm a bumbling hobbyist. So when she asked me what to do, I asked you lot.;)

Thanks again, one and all.
Regards,
Russel.