The Demonic Ape

I watched an interesting doco on the ABC the other night. It was called 'The Demonic Ape'. Basically, it looked at the findings of Jane Goodall's study of violence amongst chimpanzees, which at first appeared to indicate that chimpanzees, along with humans, are the only animals on the planet given to violent behaviour. More recent information tends to indicate that other chimpanzee colonies don't exhibit this behaviour and that Goodall's colony was 'special' because of the environment in which the chimps lived.

One of the statements made during the doco was that in order for an animal to exhibit cruelty, the animal needs to be capable of empathy. In other words, they need to be aware that what they are doing is causing distress or pain. Apparently only humans and chimpanzees have this level of empathy. A shark is not cruel when it tears off your right leg because it has no understanding of how upsetting this is for you.

I was just watching the neighbour's cat with a mouse. If that is not cruelty, then I am Mother Theresa.

Meow

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I was just watching the neighbour's cat with a mouse. If that is not cruelty, then I am Mother Theresa

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The fact that you see it as cruel means that You empathies with the mouse.

There was a study a while back that this sort of behaviour from domesticated cats is because they do not recognise the mouse as a food thing, rather more of a toy to be thrown around and chased. The reasoning for this was that the domesticated moggy didn't really need to hunt for it's food because it was always in the bowl.

The claim was that the domesticated cat never really gets out of the adolesant (sp) stage.

Unfortunately the instinct to hunt runs too deep, hence the chasing and killing of mieces and native wildlife.

As for those chimps what were their Special conditions, surely not the fact that they had a camera pointed at them and wasn't getting their good side. :D :D

The apes at Gombe were pretty much surrounded by people and much of the forest had been cleared, so they were confined to this one area. The theory is that this put them under pressure and that combined with the feeding and other 'observation' activities was what caused the violence. In other words, it's not a natural response but one that was caused by us.

Thanks for the insight Silent, I wanted to watch this but my sons school had their speach night that night and we had to attend. might have to pop down to the ABC shop and see if it's available in recorded form.

It too watch the show and thoguht it was excellent. Only a few times did the BBC stoop to the cheap action re-enacment and "Chimp cam" simulations. Many of their wildlife docos have been dumbed down a great deal.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/horizon...monicape.shtml

For those that didn't watch it it was quite creepy. In 1998 The well known alpha male Frodo snatched and killed a human baby. He wasnt hungry, he wasnt threatened, it was basically murder.

I dont really think the cat is being cruel. YOU think it's cruel because you're empathising with the mouse - it doesnt.

I'm not sure what exactly is the point of all this research into chimps. Yes 'theyre like us. The have culture. language, theory of mind. So what?

Good point. I suppose that chimps are our closest relatives (98% genetically compatible) and that there's a belief that we can understand 'primitive' human responses (as opposed to environmental ones) by observing the same behaviour in chimps. They're trying to say that if chimps are cruel and violent like humans, then it's genetic and not environmental. The doco was pretty much squashing that theory. So it proves nothing. We are like chimps and they are like us. In certain circumstances, we can get nasty and it's not necessarily because it's a repressed genetic tendency to violence.

"Feersum Endjinn"

DId you hear the one about the Lone ranger and Tonto?
The LR and Tonto arrived at the bar and tied up their horses. It was pretty hot so the LR was worried about Silver overheating. So he asked Toto to run around Silver flapping his arms in the air to create a bit of a breeze while the LR went for a drink.

Just as he finished his drink, a bloke walks into the bar, comes up the lone ranger and says............you left your injun runnin'

boom boom

its not just chimps and humans that are cruel, theres cats as foghorn C-leghorn mentions but other animals are the same. I've seen sea otters smacking about fish and seen a david rabbitbourough special where killer whales are tossing about seal pups.

do they distinguish this as cruel ? probably not - i feel the distinction between cruelty and learned survival traits (such as learning to hunt) is the ability to realise that you are needlessly hurting the victim... having said this the orca's did release one of the pups back to the colony once they'd finished playing tennis.

my point is we arent the only cruel animals around. we should have stayed in the trees.... eating banana's and masturbating! luxury! :D :D :D :D :D

ps lefty - Groan at your pun! :)

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Originally Posted by Zed

.... eating banana's and masturbating! luxury! :D :D :D :D :D

ps lefty - Groan at your pun! :)

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Spanking the monkey, huh?

Saturday's Sydney Telegraph. Male dolphins were found to kidnap a female dolphin and rape her repeatedly over several weeks.
Dolphins, like some apes, have sex for enjoyment - no other animal is known to do that. A gorilla is one of those apes but suprisingly his penis is only around 50mm long, but it is not the size that counts it is how he uses it, as they say.
Back to the dolphins, the story in the paper suggests that dolphins purposely herded, and "murdered" the recent pod of pilot whales stranded in Darlington Bay, Tas. according to marine biologists, other dolphin experts have disputed this claim. Oh No! Not a debate.

Very interesting.

Peter R.

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Originally Posted by echnidna

Meow

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"Boom"....Click {reload}

Anyone for Pancakes??:D

Donkeys are cruel. Many may not know it but parts of northern Australia have large populations of wild donkeys. To or three will sit on a waterhole or windmill and not let any other animal near, including cattle, horses and camels. They have been known to stay for 3 or 4 days at a time causing some animals to perish. A donkey will kill a horse by biting it in the neck.

It certainly appears cruel. Station owners normally reserve an 85 grain piece of lead for donkeys (travelling at about 3000 fps)

I don't know if chimps are cruel as we know it but they definetly display a range of emotions...just look at some of Zed's posts:D

Cheers

Despite me keeping watch at a party on Sunday afternoon, a group of 8-12 yr old 'boys' managed to torment my 5yr old by holding hom down, giving him wedgies - hard enough to leave marks - and trying to push his head into horse. This is the second ocasion they've picked on him at a gathering. They won't do it again. The parents say 'oh no, but those boys are all so nice'. Well, nice they're not, when together at least.

What is it within the small human male that starts this vicious treatment? As soon as they sense a weakness, or find someone smaller, away they go. Poor wee Max would have been totally bewildered - all he wanted to do was play.

I'm getting all angry again, so I'll stop.. Rest assured that they now know what I think they are.:mad: :mad: :mad:

teach him how to hold a lump of dads wood, dont let him get used to being the bunny... these lessons are best learnt early.... (i'm serious!!) :mad:

It is interesting to sit back and watch kids playing. It's really quite suprising just how nasty some kids can be, especially when they think no-one is watching. It's also a real popularity contest in the playground.

My boy is only 3 but he's the size of a 5 year old. Consequently, he wants to run around and play with the 'big' kids but because he can't talk much, they don't want to know him. He doesn't know what's going on but they run away from him and call him a baby. He quite happily runs after them thinking it's a game. When he's their age, he'll be bigger than the other kids and I think we'll have to watch him. When he wants to play on something and there's another kid in his way, he just barges in and pushes them out of the way, no matter how big they are. No fear yet. He doesn't always get away with it though.

I take the attitude that's it's better for him to learn his place than for me to wade in and take over. He needs to work out how far he can push things and he needs to learn to fight his own battles. Nevertheless if a gang of kids jumped him, the parental instinct would take over and there'd be a few arses kicked.

That's the thing Silent. Max is also very tall for his age, which does work against him, especially as he has a very sensitive nature. One of the mothers said 'you've got to let them sort it out'. Not when it's 10 to one I don't. She has a particularly clingy babyish 3 1/2 yr old boy. I'm sure she'd think differently if it was her boy out there getting stomped.

I remember being bullied, and I wish my dad was around to sort it, at the time. Come to think of it I never told anyone - somehow there is an instinct to not let on that you've been humiliated. Shame?

I only wish I could go back 24 hrs and stop it happening at all. You can't watch them 24/7 though, bugger it.

It's usually one kid that's the ring leader and the rest just follow along. The classic bully is really a coward and if you stand up to them, they just fold. It's amazing then how quickly the rest of the gang disappears. It's a bit of a mob mentality. Kids who quite happily play together suddenly turn on each other when another kid comes along with something nasty in mind.

Of course all of that is fine and well unless you are 5 years old and being hassled by a bunch of bigger kids.

My Dad's advice to me was to fight fire with fire. When he was a kid, the school bully and his cohorts used to wait for him at the school gates and then tease him. The old man got fed up with this and one day he grabbed the guy by the arm, twisted him around and threw him over his shoulder. He never got picked on again.

I preferred a more subtle approach when I was at school but there was one kid who used to give me grief all the time. We fell to blows but it was broken up by a teacher before any resolution was reached. After that, we had an uneasy sort of friendship. Another guy who I had a similar scuffle with became my best mate.

I think the worst thing you can do is over-protect your kids but there's obviously going to be times when you have to wade in like you did.

Yes - I have my suspicions of who was the instigator, but I wasn't sure enough to really point the finger. Probably just as well, as I was angry enough. We also have a rule that if you don't actually witness the act, you can't really blame the individual - mainly as my daughter is an excellent fibber.

I too had those 'have a fight and then be mates later' experiences, which did puzzle me at the time. One of them was identical to your dad's, with a wonderful karate flip over my shoulder of a much bigger boy. Surprised even me, and felt wonderful. We were mates for years. Maybe Derek could enlighten us on something other than LA smoothers.