Hi all
I have just put together some laminated Vic Ash kitchen benchtops and am after some opinions as to the best way to seal/finish them. I guess any finish should be resistant to water, oil heat etc.
Any advice appreciated.
Cheers
squidda
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Hi all
I have just put together some laminated Vic Ash kitchen benchtops and am after some opinions as to the best way to seal/finish them. I guess any finish should be resistant to water, oil heat etc.
Any advice appreciated.
Cheers
squidda
Technically no finish is 'resistant' to water, oil, heat etc........
However some finish's are much better than others. If it were me, being a bench top in a kitchen I wouldn't even use timber but if I did I'd probably go for a 2pk poly-u industrial coating. Thats going to give you the best protection agaisn't chemicals, heat, water etc but its restrictive in the seasonal movement catogory compared to 1pk polyu....
Hey Squidda
I made Jarrah benchtops in my kitchen about two years ago along with a large island workbench and it has all been finished with Rustins Danish Oil. There is to date no visible marking at all on the benchtops and the workbench gets a coat every three months or so. The oil is very durable and it only needs a wipe if something is spilled on it. SWMBO regularly puts hot things down on all surfaces and still it shines through. Be prepared to give it plenty of coats, mine had about a dozen over a two week period before installation. It has to be the easiest finish to apply also, just wipe it on and wipe of the excess 15 to 20 minutes later.And as for not using timber in a kitchen who would choose Melamine over natural timber given the choice(and if cost was not a factor}...
DanF
What westpest says!
I've used PolyU as per Shane's suggestion on a table, and it was ok, but think if you want wood that looks like plastic, use melamine.
I've used Epoxy floated on in about five coats, wet and dried and cut back to a satin finish, and it was OK too, but an awful lot of work. Hard as the hobs of Hell though, but not particularly heat resistant, and trust me, you don't want to have to sand it off to start again!
Danish Oil will build up a durable food safe finish that's easy to repair and feels like timber. I'm too lazy to recoat every few months, (and have a granite top so don't need to! :D) but even once a year will be fine, and you it really is as easy as wiping the bench with a damp rag.
Cheers,
P :D
Danish oil should never be used on food preparation surfaces.
It's toxic and uses white spirit as the thinners.
I wouldn't fancy having white spirit in my food, would you?
There are oils made specifically for kitchen tops which contain no toxins.
Here is the recipe for Danish oil given by an old cabinet maker years ago to a guy with his own business making bespoke desks for high flying city types in London.
TUNG oil, Linseed oil (non-boiled), a good quality PURE white spirit, and 1 teaspoon of TEREBENE per 1/2 pint of mixture.. (to assist in the drying process-speeds things up a bit)
How about corn oil, sunflower oil, safflower oil, poppy seed oil, or even rapeseed oil for finishing products that come into contact with food, i.e. salad bowls, cutting blocks?
Usually we wait till the finish has cured before rolling our food over it!! :rolleyes: :D I suspect that not all Danish oils are the same?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewy
Once the polymerisation process has completed, I understand that the stuff becomes quite inert. There have been comprehensive writings on the performance of materials in food environments, which is how I started using Danish Oil in the first place. I'll try to fish out a reference.
I can't begin to imagine what toxins go into making melamine, but have never had a problem eating off that either. :D :D :D
Cheers,
P
G'day Dewy - Personally I'd be more worried about the terebene (a metallic dryer), linseed (which can go rancid) and tung than the White Spirit, it at least evaporates off, the others don't.
Your old cabinet maker may have called it a recipe for Danish oil, but it is more like a Scandinavian oil. As a Danish Oil recipe it would have been a dismal failure. Most Danish is basically watered down polyurethane (originally watered down spar or oil varnish). It is only toxic in its liquid form.
I think you will find, your corn oil, sunflower oil, safflower oil, poppy seed oil, and rapeseed oil are far more dangerous for the suggested use as they will all go rancid, not only that, but they offer absolutely no protection what so ever to the surface of the bench.
Cheers - Neil :)
Heil, are you sure that terebene is metallic? According to several other sources it, at least once upon a time, was a polymeric terpene.Quote:
Originally Posted by ubeaut
ubeaut, the person who gave us that recipe would be horrified at your comment that Danish oil is made with varnish or polyeurethane.
He has his own business with many employees and hates varnish and polyeurethane and always oils everything he makes.
We have a lot of good hearted banter between those who use oil and varnish.
Tung oil is infinitely better as it comes from tung nuts and is natural, non toxic, sometimes known as china wood oil and is a constituent of most wood oils and is one of the most resilient finishes known
I think that most of the modern commercial "Danish oils" are exactly what Neil says. It is buried a bit in the recipe but it is there on many. The bottom line is that if you want a real oil finish either make your own or buy from a company that expressly states that it does not have it in eg organoil, although I am sure there are others. I am not sure how Neil's hard shellac would go on a kitchen bench both for wear resistance and protection but it is a possibility, not intending criticism here he does list what his cross linkers are either.
Nonetheless Dewy, Danish Oil must have spar varnish in it to be Danish OIl, otherwise it is something else. Full stop. All the comments about the toxicity in the solvent and its effect on food are valid to my understanding. Once the product has dried (i.e., the carriers have evaporated) then it is basically inert and safe. I have used a number of commercially produced "danish oils" and I have to say that they are not all equal. The one DanF the Westpest used is the top perfomer,certainly of the ones that I have used - IMHO.
Hey Neil, have you got anything cooking in this direction ?
PAH1 - the terebine of today consists of manganese and cobalt salts in mineral terpentine. Cobalt has been classified by the IARC as possibly carcinogenic to humans. As far as I know, it was always based on metallic salts to catalyse the polymerisation process (speed up drying).Quote:
Originally Posted by PAH1
According to chemwatch a commercial database on chemicals and their hazards (listing all publicly available MSDS sheets) all terebene is the following. No hits were seen for metals, and if cobalt was in it it really would be listed seeing as though it is such a nice metal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bunyip
PRODUCT NAME:
TEREBENE
SYNONYMS
terebenum
PROPER SHIPPING NAME
TERPENE HYDROCARBONS, N.O.S.
PRODUCT USE
Obtained by shaking turpentine oil with sulfuric acid, added in successive small
quantities and distilling the separated product in a current of steam. Used as a
rubefacient and is employed as a liniment for rheumatic pain and stiffness. Aromatic
ingredient of some pastilles. Imparts oil and water resistance to cellulosics.
SUPPLIER
The topic of composition of various finishes always creates some discussion. There is some discussion relevant to this thread here;
http://woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/...4&page=1&pp=15
I have also noted the varying spelling of Terebine, Terebene and terebin (as it appears in this forum and elsewhere)
I thought on of those was a turtle :o but I guess this would be the spelling we are talking about in finishing as per here; for "Terebine"
http://www.spencercoatings.co.uk/inc...rces-06TED.pdf
and MSDS from Feast Watson here:
http://msds.orica.com/pdf/shess-en-c...0000001281.pdf
I also found this for Terebene
Ter�e`bene
<TABLE><TBODY><TR><TD vAlign=top noWrap>n.</TD><TD vAlign=top>1.</TD><TD>(Chem.) A polymeric modification of terpene, obtained as a white crystalline camphorlike substance; - called also <ALTNAME>camphene</ALTNAME>. By extension, any one of a group of related substances.</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
It would seem to me that Terebine and Terebene are in their commercial form different products. I just a mug at this though.
Hope this helps
Cheers
I was just assuming that people did not know how to spell the thing, very very common for chemicals, and used the spelling that Neil used in his post.Quote:
Originally Posted by vsquizz
Exactly what I thought at first until I did some research. But don't take my word for it. I'm just reading datasheets. I don't have a definitive reference although one of the on-line dictionarys did list both products separatley.Quote:
Originally Posted by PAH1
Cheers
Squizz
MSDS sheets take the fuzziness out of it for sure, they must refer to the actual contents of the article, usually they are really required to be batch specific ie a new one refering to each new batch. That is generally regarded as a pile of crock for us but for some things it may be needed. One of my problems was trying to think how the heck they got those metal salts dissolved in organic solvent, there are ways of doing it but not easily.
Sorry to burst any bubbles but TEREBENE is: A paint and varnish dryer consisting of linseed oil, natural resin, and salts of lead and manganese thinned with turpentine. Also known as Terebine
Maybe there has been a change in the formula but not that I know of.
Like I have said in earlier posts. Don't believe everything you find in MSDS's.
Dewy - I'm not knocking your mates oil. The recipe he gave you, is a really good oil polish but it isn't Danish oil. It is an old fashioned traditional type of oil that has been used in various forms for a very long time. Danish oil was, as I said originally based on spar varnish and is now generally based on polyurethane, some of the better ones also have tung oil in them whilst the more ordinary ones are basically no more than poly, linseed and turps. There's a bit more to it, but basically that is how danish oil is made.
Cheers - Neil :)
I was planning on using Cabots CFP single pack satin poly with the hardness additives on my blue gum benchtops to give a very strong durable finish (when they finally arrive...). It worked wonders on a rough cut coffee table made from old weathered hardwood. Any opinions on this for or against?
Cheers
Wildman
Wildman, I'm with Midge back on the first page. The poly is good if you like the look but its a bugger to repair. I like the oils for a spruce up once a year and a natural look. Whatever rings ya bell really.
I rebuilt a section of friends kitchen with a granite top around the sink area and a farm bench type table top made up of hardwood timber offcuts all laminated together and finished in tung oil. It gets a rough sand and clean up once a year and people walk in and say "oh you have a new bench". Some women don't like the timber finish.
Butcher down the road has thrown out all the plastic from his butchery and brought back in his jarrah cutting blocks..had a fight with the health inspector and told the health dept to prove that au natural timber was worse than plastic. That was about a year ago and he's still using his tree trunk chopping block.
Cheers
My concern with the oils in the kitchen was the underside. I have seen solid timber benchtops where the underside was not properly sealed and over time they bowed up as the underneath absorbed water. The kitchen is not the dryest place around. The timber being used is 50 year old re-machined timber that should be completely dry and stable as long as I can seal it properly. How would you seal the underside if oiling the top for the best longevity?
I have sanded and patched a few major scratches in our hardwood floors with reasonable success with CFP. I am also relatively against having to oil regularly but I suppose once a year would be OK. I am about to re-danish oil a large bookshelf immediately after moving house. I am not looking forward to that, I originally did the whole thing in pieces, it is 2400Hx1500Wx220D now and not the easiest thing to work with.
Cheers
Wildman
Hi NeilQuote:
Originally Posted by ubeaut
Sorry to say but an MSDS from a major supplier is really going to list all the harmful stuff in it, where they are fuzzy is frequently the concentration of the things that are in it. I would not like to be on the end of an accident where a falsified one was supplied. Lead has been banned as a paint additive for nearly as long as I am old, from memory in the 70's but it could have been earlier. I rang feast watson this morning and confirmed that no lead was formulated in their terebine, however the msds was cryptic in what it actually had in it aside from being lead free, they also sell it as Terebine.
I checked again yesterday on chemwatch for terebine, listed as a siccative with Manganese and Cobalt compounds, but there are a whole stack of other potential ones, Barium, Vanadium, Calcium, Zinc and Zirconium reffered to as R38. Of all the Australian MSDS sheets listed (5) one refered to terebene as a synonym. However no MSDS sheet or chemical list refered to polymeric terpenes (Terebene) as being synonym of terebine ie the metal compounds. I would not use the cobolt and manganese on anything that got near food, although a benchtop or tabletop would be alright.
What we have here is definitively poor usage of terminology, several terms being used interchangeably when they are not really. My question now is does the original terebene work as a drier or not?
Back on track there is nothing stopping you from finishing the underside of a bench in the same oil. You just may not have to refinish it as frequently.
For more info on driers etc see
health assessment of driers
Thanks for the feedback and glad to generate some discussion for those that seem to be right into it.
I did consider using Danish oil but recently made a hall table out of recycled hardwood that recieved about 6 coats of Cabot's Danish Oil. tends to mark very easily. Covered in marks and its a hall table that just sits there doing nothing. But it is easy to "repair".
had also thought about CFP with the additive as mentioned by wildman but was worried about it 'yellowing'. As for repairing polyurethane, i don't mind sanding and recoating every couple of years.
Most benchtop manufacturers offer to finish the tops in 2 pak. Went to a few stores and could only find Wattyl (7008 i think). Any good? Can it be brushed on or do you need to use a lambs wool applicator as they recommend. They recommend the applicator washed out in a particular wattyl product after each use. Otherwise use a new applicator for each coat but this gets expensive at about $17 each.
Cheers and thanks
Squidda
This is my first visit & therefore my first reply. (which is why I'm replying to an 'administrator')
I came here with an enquiry similar but not exactly like the one here.
I would like to have laminated timber benches in my kitchen, but only if I can avoid 2-Pac.
An oiled finish of some type is the look and feel that I had in mind.
The biggest concern that I had doesn't seem to have been mentioned. That is the issue of cross contamination or basic bug breeding in the timber itself.
I seem to have heard somewhere that there are certain timber types that have inherent antibacterial qualities. I will do serious food prep on separate plastic chopping boards or on a freestanding 'Peer Sorensen' (I hope this is allowed) chopping block. This is more than 10 years old now and just looks better with age, which was the reason behind me thinking of the more natural (and imperfect look) of timber benches.
Sorry. Back to the question.
1. Are there any timber types that are naturally more 'antibacterial'.
2. Are there any of the oils that have been mentioned that will help is this department.
Thanks in anticipation,
(hope I didn't break too many rules)
regards,
Peter
Peter,
An observation from a food prep perspective rather than a scientific response: ;)
As a rule, bacteria need moisture and warmth to reproduce, timber is porous and naturally holds moisture...the more porous the more "bacteria friendly". If there are any reagents in a timber species which limit bacterial growth, then they are likely to leach out of the surface eventually anyway given the sort of use and constant moisture used in a kitchen benchtop.
Filling the pores with a stable product (Danish Oil) will reduce or eliminate the ability of the timber to hold moisture...hence problem (mostly) goes away!
Cheers,
P (by no means an expert)
Thanks very much for the quick reply.
Just to update on some of my searching today.
After calling Cabot/ Feast Watson they suggested I try Organoil.
Organoil's web page says of their Danish Oil; NOT for FLOORING or BENCHTOP use. (their caps not mine)
They have another product called 'Hard Burnishing Oil';
"Suitable for powered-disc operation, hand-rubbed and on-latheThis seems to be the closest I've found so far.
finishing. Based on genuine, unmodified Tung Nut Oil, providing for
excellent sealing, efficient drying and handling durability. Geared for
minimal darkening/yellowing though still delivers light, natural colour
enhancement. Following drying, is least likely to taint foods cut on
or served in (chopping boards, bowls etc.)."
I still wish I could find out what the chopping block timbers are.
I'll keep trying and let you (all) know if I find anything.
thanks again, cheers,
Peter
Quote:
Originally Posted by bitingmidge
hi guys
sorry to butt in here but a very interesting topic who would know it could be so complicated to finish a kitchen benchtop or for that matter get advice on it.
Im about to do my own benchtop and am looking for the same advice but on old tounge and groove hoop pine flooring.
so let i would be interested in finding out how the Organoil turns out or the comments about it.
I've been told by an old timbercutter that they used to use paperbark - Melaleuca Leucadendron for butcher's blocks as it had natural anti-bacterial qualities. A close relative the Ti-tree-Melaleuca Alternifolia is used for oil production, this oil is prized for its anti-bacterial qualities.
Mick
another 20c worth:
Danish oil is a wiping varnish - a varnish with a larger oil content than normal, with maybe tung as well. It is the application method that reduces the final thickness of the finish, but what you end up with once cured is - varnish. Much nicer that 2-pac, though:D
As to what you put under the benchtop - whatever goes on top, must go underneath. Otherwise you certainly will be askong for warping problems, as the underside of teh benchtop will absorb moisture. You don't have to apply the finish to the same standard as the top - just make sure that the surface is sealed.
I used 'Briwax' danish oil, after trying many others, on my NZ heart Rimu benchtops. They still look fantastic after 3 yrs of use, and haven't had any re-application. They do mark - if you want mirror finish forever, get cold ol' granite, or smother it in that thick plastic goo that they use on souvenir clocks
With regard to my question about the timber properties, I found this very interesting link in the \ GENERAL \ TIMBER section of this site
http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com...read.php?t=775
thanks again
Peter