bad, bad resto

I decided to test the waters on 'paid for service' resorations... normally I buy, and then resell after restoring the item myself.

I deliberately made the decision to let the customer decide the cost, so that I could find a 'minimum cost per service' before deciding if I wanted to take on commissions or private work.

For a bedside cabinet, I did the following:
- stripped off 8 layers of different colour oil and enamel paints,
- stained the timber for an antique finish (using age appropriate techniques), including colour matching on different species timbers in the piece of rubbish 'antique',
- french polished the piece,
- waxed,
- cleaned the marble cabinet top,
- stripped paint off the brass fittings,
- 'antiqued' the brass fitting, and
- made structural repairs to the cabriole legs and door, and
- refitted the 'pierced' door with new stuffed fabric coverings for the piercings.

The 'highly paid' professional 'customer' gushed over the work, and then decided it was worth $50, which covers @ 70% of the consumables. $50... thats not even a meal and a glass of wine for the customer, or a second hand plane for me.

Bite me.
I'm going back to buying pieces, restoring and reselling.... expectations are rather low and I prefer being on the resale/retail side rather than interact with customers.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Clinton1

I decided to test the waters on 'paid for service' resorations... normally I buy, and then resell after restoring the item myself.

I deliberately made the decision to let the customer decide the cost, so that I could find a 'minimum cost per service' before deciding if I wanted to take on commissions or private work.

For a bedside cabinet, I did the following:
- stripped off 8 layers of different colour oil and enamel paints,
- stained the timber for an antique finish (using age appropriate techniques), including colour matching on different species timbers in the piece of rubbish 'antique',
- french polished the piece,
- waxed,
- cleaned the marble cabinet top,
- stripped paint off the brass fittings,
- 'antiqued' the brass fitting, and
- made structural repairs to the cabriole legs and door, and
- refitted the 'pierced' door with new stuffed fabric coverings for the piercings.

The 'highly paid' professional 'customer' gushed over the work, and then decided it was worth $50, which covers @ 70% of the consumables. $50... thats not even a meal and a glass of wine for the customer, or a second hand plane for me.

Bite me.
I'm going back to buying pieces, restoring and reselling.... expectations are rather low and I prefer being on the resale/retail side rather than interact with customers.

---

It's a real problem, the belief that other people's time is not worth much. Just try telling a doctor that you've only been in his room for five minutes (and wasted an hour of your time in the waiting room) so five dollars should cover it.
The best way is to break the job down into the time needed and tell them how much you charge an hour plus materials. You'll probably find you've been undercharging for years.:U
If you want to see professionals froth at the mouth mention plumbers:D
Cheers,
Jim

yep, friends of mine have the same problem up here, Clinton. I don't think some people have ever realised just how much slog it can be to restore a piece, especially a chair, for instance.:rolleyes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Clinton1

The 'highly paid' professional 'customer' gushed over the work, and then decided it was worth $50,.

---

What an insult! Some people have got a nerve that's for sure.:(

My next door neighbour(when I lived in Sydney )was a female migration agent who had a live in boy friend ,a builder,top bloke used to help him on the odd ocassion when he neeeded two sets of hands,he was in the process of renovating the house, used to go in and shoot the breeze with him over a couple of reds when she wasn't home, anyhow one day he produces a sheet of paper shows it to me, on it were about two 4-5 line paragraphs,he said you know what she is charging some poor b for that,I replied no idea, $1800 he replied and she gets upset when I charge her for my time ,its peanuts compared to that.
I renamed her contraceptive after that ,she had no conception. whatsoever.:roll:

That suck hey.i have just made some 200mm balls out of blackwood for the top of entry posts 6 all up and charged $ 480.00 for the job just covering the cost of the wood.Customers are happy and asked me to restore six old oak chairs for them.When told my hourly rate they thought twice but asked me to try to stay in the $500.00 range .We as wood worker's we need to educate the public about the worth of our labour ( its not just for love of wood ):((:((frustrated

You learnt the first lesson of succesful buisness you set your price not the customer, most customers have no Idea what's invovled. that is why they come to in the first place. Set your price if they are not happy let them find a better deal

Next time try this approach. Work out what materials you need and give the customer the list and tell them to go and buy them, then when the job is finished give them the bill for your time. All of a sudden they then work out what the real costs are.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Clinton1

- french polished the piece,

---

A retired french polisher told me that the difference in restoring an item with lacquer or french polish was only a zero.

If the cost of lacquering was say $ 250 then french polishing was $ 2,500. On that basis you should have at least got $ 500.


Peter.

Clients not realising the how you value add and take into account 20 years of experience, and what that might cost are the type I quickly refuse to do work for.

If they don't want to pay I won't work for them. Never under-quote to get a job (not that you did), a client will always come back wanting the same again next time.

In your case I wouldn't have let them out the door with the furniture. A good story I once heard, was someone didn't want to pay full price from something from the bakery and asked if they could pay less for it. The baker said yes he could do that, but what ingredient did they want him to take out?

I would have told him to get f#$%@d

Thanks all... I was a little frustrated.

Its my fault, I did want to 'test the waters' after hearing many bad stories on this site.
Before I've always controlled the price of what I got for restos... buy at auction, sell at auction with a reserve. This time I wanted to test the 'customers pricing' concept.

So, I'll not complain too much, I did set myself up for the fall.

I'll go back to the auction method... I can't see that dealing with customers will add any real value... would not feel comfortable charging a "putting up with you" fee.

I too know what you all mean re this. I normally restore antiques for myself, but on occasions have done this for others, and/or made use of professional restoration services in such situations where the work required was beyond my skills, or tools available to do the job.

The difference being given I know what is involved in terms of time, effort and materials (including their cost), to bring something back to life, I have never quibbled at the price charged when I have sent work out. Similarly and perhaps luckily, on the jobs I have taken on for others I outlined what would be required to ensure that the customer knew what they would be up for. If happy with this, then I would proceed to take on the job.

However, I do know that in many instances, the true cost of your time, effort, let alone materials is unlikely to be recouped. The same is true for the restoration efforts I have expended over the years on my historic houses I have been restoring.

In the end for me it is about the pleasure of bringing something old and tired back to life for not just me to enjoy but to have saved it for others to enjoy in the future.

Its not just restoration. You should try removing a virus from someones computer for the hundred dollars they are willing to pay.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Waldo

Clients not realising the how you value add and take into account 20 years of experience, and what that might cost are the type I quickly refuse to do work for.

---

Experience plus having the right tools can make a job look easy especially if you don't have the mystique of wearing a white coat.
A lot of head shaking can go a long way and saying things like, "Now I haven't seen anything like this since 1985 when I was called in by the Museum".:U

Cheers,
Jim

Spent hours on a sideboard for a good friend. She wanted to pay me. I told her she could not afford me! The solution....... I asked her to buy me a painting I liked but considered an extravagance. I got the painting ... she got her renewed sideboard! We were both happy.:U

As a tradesman (electrician) I always charge the materials out at the price I pay for them and then charge 2/3rds of the going rate for my trade. If they query the price I always ask them to get a quote and then give me a shout.
Much the same when making, say a box for someone. I recently charged someone $80 for a box that took me almost a week to finish. It turned out very well and they were very pleased but I did hear from someone else later that they thought the price was rather high even though they were delighted with the box.
As has been said, the general public have no idea just how much time goes into having something "hand made".

Compare with all the other trades, woodworkers of all types are at the lowest actual achievable hourly rate.....and possibly the highest necessary skill level.

If you want to make good money......do something other than woodwork..and it will be easier too.

Possibly the highest actual houly rate is the plumber....but who wants to dig holes and work in $##T for a living:~

cheers

Last year I laid 45 sq metres of floor tiles to save money. It buggered my hip and I had to have a total hip replacement, $25,000. The floor looks great but in future I pay a tradesman to lay tiles.

Oh My God! One expensive floor. I suppose if there is a consollation it is that you not only have a new floor but also a new hip. Enjoy both!

As a self employed computer tech it never fails to amaze me when people want to only pay minimum rate for repairs. I have a set fee repair which covers 1 hour and a sliding scale for work outside that hour. (I am also an old softie when it comes to pensioners with fruit cake and cups of tea) who end up with a flat fee repair of $50.00 plus parts if required.

One of my first customers pointed out that clients are not employing you for your abilities of how to use a screwdrive but rather your knowledge of when the application of the screwdriver is in their best interests.

Some customers just get the ' Hmm that looks like its going to cost upwards of $500.00 plus parts to repair" when I don't want the job. Occasionally some numpty will pay it even when I tell him I'm not interested.

So the upshot is have a set of fees displayed for your labour and add the line "Plus Parts and Consumables". If the restoration warrants it they will pay.

I was self employed for many years a cleaning business and a roof restoration business and I always gave a fixed contract price on my work in both businesses.. Roof restoration included pointing and bedding ridge caps and usually painting 3 coats. I worked on roofs 365 days a year so to speak and I knew what the cost would be to me to undertake and complete the work. Customers were always happy to get a fixed quote for the work and not have a quote that was up in the air leaving the customer with no idea really as to the final costing.

I am amazed at how many tradesmen, who obviously don't know their trade well enough to come up with a fixed quote for work. Makes you wonder sometimes if they ever intended doing the work for the original quoted price. I recently had some bathroom extensions done at home and had several guys come out to quote and out of about 7 tradies, only 2 guys could give me a fixed quote to do the work. One guy went away and I finally got his quote 3 weeks later and he followed that up with a phone call and was quite surprised to learn that the work was almost completed by this time.

I fix computers for my friends but never charge them for it. Hey, what are friends for.?

Its very difficult to get people to pay what we're worth, :(selling handmade timber toys at the markets, everyone wants cheap cheap cheap, so I use rubbish timber, cheap finishes and let them go cheap, the expensive ones I use only the best timbers,glues,finishes etc and only very few people really"see" the work that goes into them and are prepared to pay appropriately.
I'm doing heavy duty cleaning on the side and at $120 an hour people baulk at the quote, but, when they see the finished job are always happy :2tsup:(and Im not the most expensive around).
My neighbour is a computer wiz and when people get his quote they get kinda pale and shaky:oo: but the extra $$$ guarantee a top job.:D
I used to quote low to get jobs but now I quote what Im really worth. If I dont get the job, thats ok, more time to play in the workshop.:)
cheers, billy:fireman:

This for me is a very interesting thread topic- I know little about what goes into woodwork as I am very much a beginner, although I am aware from my dabblings that there is a lot of skill and materials that go into quality work.

My other issue is that I'm a civil servant, and have not worked a trade- while I'm getting out of this (sick of red tape bureaucracy BS), I still have a way to go before I'm de-institutionalised! lol A lot to learn about time,

I can appreciate on the one hand the issue of wanting to go a great job against securing the job, especially when I look at getting work done I do look at the price tag! Fear of the unknown though I guess, I mean I don't consider buying cheap tools, but when it comes to the decent ones I always look for deals... but then I know the quality is secured, it's just the price that's a factor after that... but when it's a one-off service (or even one that isn't used regularly) and you've not used them before, what else can you consider?

Sorry as I've waffled a bit here (I've had a few wines tonight, I may need to re-read this tomorrow!), but it's one I'm liking reading about! :2tsup:

Well I have 2 anecdotes
1. I've just been commissioned to restore an old family dining table. Blackwood oval extension with an old type winder so the 2 inner extension leaves can be removed. Its about 80-90 years old. One leg has at some time been infested with woodworrms (as I discovered after I took delivery). The client wants the top stripped back and french polished. They had commissioned a professional to do the job but he died before the job got started. I have no idea what he was going to charge for the job. I quoted 400 bucks and I think they fell in love with me. (Did I under-quote?). On discovering the worm infested leg I told them I could reproduce the leg in aged blackwood for an extra 100 bucks. They fell in love with me again (Did I under-quote again?). Anyway, as its the first commercial job of french polishing I've tried I guess I can put it down to a learning experience. It'll be a 1200 buck job next time. Like it or lump it.:cool:

2. I make Adirondack Chairs to sell. I charge $220 for a single made of treated pine. A bus driver (friend) stopped by the other day and asked the price (which is prominently displayed). When I told him 220 he said his daughter could by one at Bunnings for 165 bucks. My response? Tell her to buy the one from Bunnings. I can't compete with Indonesian rain-forest destroyers. :rolleyes:

Some you win - some you don't.

Don't forget the half-moon glasses pushed to the end of your nose so that you can peer at the customer over the top of them........:D

Certainly justifies adding a bit to the bill.:2tsup:

Shedddy,
Are you underquoting?
As a qualified and proven idiot in the field.... what is my opinion worth? However, that will be some part of $400 in your pocket for your first commercial venture... so it is a good beginning.

As for point 2, yeah, don't bother competing with labour paid at developing country rates, you won't be competitive. If your product is of value, consider making the chairs from something other than treated pine and looking for a niche retailer or develop a niche marketing methodology. Or, be happy with the price you charge and show why the price difference is 'of value'.

Good to see you are still around, you must be one of the 'old crowd' by now?

Yeah, hard to beleive I've been here for 4 years. Don't have a net connection at home so not arouind much anymore. I'm content with the prices I get for my stuff. No plans to become a milyonair. :D

The $50 offer was simply an insult. I do what I can myself, and then pay professionals do those things about which I have no knowledge. I just put new chain plates in my boat and rebuilt a cupboard around them. Did that myself. Needed a new furler for the headsail. Know nothing about that. Professionals charged me $2800 for the excellent furler they had made, and $400 to put it on the boat. I thought it was cheap.

My main profession is electronics and have mainly been into computer repairs for 25+ years and do woodworking as a hobby.
Too many "friends" asked me to look at their computers over the years that I finally got sick of it. You wouldn't ask a bricky mate to just fix your house, yet they expect you to fix their pc's for free. :?

I was recently unemployed for a while and did "handyman" jobs to get some cash since I couldn't get unemployment benefits.

One person asked me to quote on some tiling, something which I had done on a few jobs previously, I quoted and he said it was too expensive and I would have to drop the figure. I politely told him to go and get a proffesional to do the job.

On the other hand we recently had our house demolished and a new one built onsite. The demolition company quoted $11,000 to remove the house and ten large trees. After they finished he mentioned that the local tip fees were much higher than where he did most of his work so I asked him to re-quote. Initially he refused but I persisted and finally had a requote of $13,000 which I happily paid.