using hard, shellac

G`day to my neighbors in Australia, I just joined this forum because I recently picked up a bottle of U-Beaut hard shellac and thought I`d go directly to the source for how to best apply it. I build electric guitars and love the look shellac gives the wood, but durability has kept me from using it as a complete finish. Starting with some scrap I applied 4 coats of the U-Beaut, diluted 1part shellac to 1part spirits, sanded with 800 grit paper to remove the ridges and then began french polishing with the same mixture with a couple drops of spirits and one of olive oil. I was wondering if the use of the olive oil in any way inhibits the cross linking of the U-Beaut or can cause any other problems. I hope it doesn`t because the shine and the smoothness after just 1 session is amazing. I applied 4 coats in 1 session. Any advice from anyone that`s familiar with U-Beaut`s application would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! Michael Williams

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Originally Posted by Heartstrings

G`day to my neighbors in Australia, I just joined this forum because I recently picked up a bottle of U-Beaut hard shellac and thought I`d go directly to the source for how to best apply it. I build electric guitars and love the look shellac gives the wood, but durability has kept me from using it as a complete finish. Starting with some scrap I applied 4 coats of the U-Beaut, diluted 1part shellac to 1part spirits, sanded with 800 grit paper to remove the ridges and then began french polishing with the same mixture with a couple drops of spirits and one of olive oil. I was wondering if the use of the olive oil in any way inhibits the cross linking of the U-Beaut or can cause any other problems. I hope it doesn`t because the shine and the smoothness after just 1 session is amazing. I applied 4 coats in 1 session. Any advice from anyone that`s familiar with U-Beaut`s application would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! Michael Williams

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You should not have any problems, it is standard practice to use olive oil or some other oils that are suitable. You might want to order the publication "A Polishers Handbook" by Neil Ellis who makes u-Beaut's products and teaches french polishing.:D:D

SB

Thanks for the reply Wood Planner, I thought it should be okay to use the olive oil but wanted to make sure before using on a guitar. The hard shellac behaves differently than the regular shellac I`m used to, it`s a lot easier to get a smooth finish with it. I plan to pick up a copy of that book but in the mean time I thought you folks in Australia who are familiar with the product could get me started on the right track. Thanks again!:2tsup:

Sorry about the late reply. I'm in Houston right now and haven't been on the forums for any answers etc for a month.

I wouldn't use olive oil. Oil of preference is mineral oil (paraffin oil for Aussies). This is the second time I've heard of olive oil being used in the US weather this is common practice or not I'm not too sure but I wouldn't use it myself.

Cheers - Neil :U

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Originally Posted by ubeaut

Sorry about the late reply. I'm in Houston right now and haven't been on the forums for any answers etc for a month.

I wouldn't use olive oil. Oil of preference is mineral oil (paraffin oil for Aussies). This is the second time I've heard of olive oil being used in the US weather this is common practice or not I'm not too sure but I wouldn't use it myself.

Cheers - Neil :U

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Nice of you to respond, hope that`s Houston, Texas and your setting up a factory there. Great product your hard shellac, I only started trying to master the skill of french polishing about a year ago and found from surfing the net that there are as many ways to do it as there are french polishers. Found a thread where you recomended the paraffin and have switched to it and found it much better. Thanks again:2tsup: Mike

Thought I'd ask for some advice in this thread instead of starting another.

I'm applying my hard shellac via a pad. Should I be attempting to get each coat perfectly smooth? Or should I just wipe it on and leave it with the "cloudy' finish and then very lightly rub back between applications?

I was trying to get perfect coats but was ending up pulling my hair out as the more I try to wipe it, the tackier it gets and harder to smooth. I am using parrafin oil but don't want to apply too much oil as it makes it difficult to see when applying new coats. I also used shellite to wipe off the excess oil but the shellite seems to take all the shine from the surface and gives a very dry dull finish.

Regards,
Shane.

I've had good results with a quality brush - but some thinning with meths to begin with and in hot weather is advisable.

Good brush: artists mop (exxy) or Grammercy brush from US Tools for working with wood (on the web) - recommended by Neil

Haven't found a cloudy finish. Sure the wood is fully dry?

PS don't use Shellite. It's just petrol.

The wood is definately dry. It's actually several different bandsaw boxes using different timber and the same effect is happening on all of them.

The "cloudy" finish I mentioned was referring to the term they used from French Polish Bodying 10 .

"Another positive indicator of a properly loaded muneca is the famous “cloud” that is left behind the muneca as it lays on the shellac. This cloud is much like the cloud that your windshield wipers leave when there is oil on the windshield. It appears and disappears as the wipers work back and forth."

Okay, so I'll stop using the shellite, but from reading and watching videos etc on french polishing they mention using shellite to rid the surface of the oil as shellite doesn't affect shellac.

But I guess that can be the problem with the internet. There is so much information out there from all these so called expert websites yet a lot of info contradicts each other.

Some experts say that you have to have a really wet amount of shellac when applying and others say that only a very small amount is used otherwise it pulls the existing shellac from the wood.

I had initially brushed the first two coats of hard shellac using a good quality artists mop/brush. But being inexperienced with brushing the shellac, I was ending up with too many high ridges that ended up with more sanding. So I reverted back to using the pad, which reduced the amount of ridges.

But thanks for replying, I may end up attempting to brush the hard shellac on my next box. What ratio of metho to hard shellac do you suggest for brushing?

Shane.

Yes, thinning should help.

With the first coat on my bowls it was at least 50% thinned and later coats 50:50.

PS as u'd know the task is to progressivly build up and cut back layers. Neil could correct me but i'm not sure that hard shellac is the easiest for this. maybe just use blond shellac to body up and then hard for the last coat or two

I started this thread and was began finishing a guitar by french polishing it, I`ve been trying to master this art for about a year and like you have been confused by all the imformation on the net. In my own case I found less shellac in the rubber to be better. I also found that by starting with 4 coats of 1lb cut, 4hrs apart no oil, with just a folded up piece of t-shirt material, trying not to overlap and not going back over to touch up a missed spot really helps. It leaves some small ridges but after letting it cure for two days I knock them off with some 3M 800 grit paper and then start french polishing with the parafin oil. I found that trying to polish before the initial coats cure a bit I end up getting the sticky mess your describing. I dip my folded squares right into the shellac for those initial coats and sqeeze the excess out on the side of the jar because if you lay a coat on too thick it won`t harden enough in 4hrs to lay another on. Seems that patience is the key, if it starts getting sticky and no cloud appears, it could be your applying to much too soon. I`ve had to switch to spraying because I started to develope a horrible pain in my shoulder from all the rubbing and found that less is better with spraying too. Used 1part hard shellac to 4parts alcohol and spray it so thin I can see it flash off as I`m spraying, I go over the guitar 4 times each spraying session, with each session 4hrs apart. Hope that helps:) Mike

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Originally Posted by Heartstrings

I started this thread and was began finishing a guitar by french polishing it, I`ve been trying to master this art for about a year and like you have been confused by all the imformation on the net. In my own case I found less shellac in the rubber to be better. I also found that by starting with 4 coats of 1lb cut, 4hrs apart no oil, with just a folded up piece of t-shirt material, trying not to overlap and not going back over to touch up a missed spot really helps. It leaves some small ridges but after letting it cure for two days I knock them off with some 3M 800 grit paper and then start french polishing with the parafin oil. I found that trying to polish before the initial coats cure a bit I end up getting the sticky mess your describing. I dip my folded squares right into the shellac for those initial coats and sqeeze the excess out on the side of the jar because if you lay a coat on too thick it won`t harden enough in 4hrs to lay another on. Seems that patience is the key, if it starts getting sticky and no cloud appears, it could be your applying to much too soon. I`ve had to switch to spraying because I started to develope a horrible pain in my shoulder from all the rubbing and found that less is better with spraying too. Used 1part hard shellac to 4parts alcohol and spray it so thin I can see it flash off as I`m spraying, I go over the guitar 4 times each spraying session, with each session 4hrs apart. Hope that helps:) Mike

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Thanks, it made me think that maybe I'm trying to apply my coats too soon. I may be giving enough time for it to be touch dry but when applying the next coat, could it be dissolving the thin top dry layer and exposing the still wet underneath?

I've currently got the weather on my side, being 35c (95 fahrenheit) in the shed and only 40% humidity. I was reapplying the coats after half an hour. What sort of temperature are you experiencing when applying your shellac? This was using a pad. I did end up going back to using the brush for the final coat of the day. I was a bit more patient using the brush this time and I think I minimised the amount of ridges and overlap.



Shane.

I live in Ohio, USA and it`s been in the 20`s, I can`t get my shop more than 60 degree`s when it`s this cold. I used some surgical gauze for the filler in my rubber as recommended by a gentleman on this forum and it worked really well, wrapped it in t-shirt material to form a ball and using 1lb cut again loaded it with 10 or 12 drops and one drop of parafin oil. When the vapor cloud disapears I reload it with about 6 drops till I`ve covered 1 side of the guitar, then I go to another side until I`ve covered the entire piece. I repeat it till I`ve gone over it a total of 4 times in a session and usually do just 3 sessions a day 4 hrs apart, just take the guitar in the house when done. If you`ve applied some with a brush it probably wouldn`t hurt to set it aside for 4 days to harden before french polishing it. Shellac is a finish that doesn`t seem to like being rushed but the look it gives to the wood is unlike any other finish I`ve tried.

Is the advice from this youtube video a good method to rub out the shellac?

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BPtGu5scc7A&feature=related"]YouTube- Broadcast Yourself.[/ame]

A confusing part is at the start where he mentions using mineral spirits to thin out the mineral oil and also using the mineral spirits straight on the wood. I know mineral oil is what we call parrafin oil but am I right to assume mineral spirits is mineral turpentine?

And here is his first video of how to brush on the shellac.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZ9M-B79jzs&feature=related"]YouTube- Broadcast Yourself.[/ame]

Shane.

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Originally Posted by Babylon5

Is the advice from this youtube video a good method to rub out the shellac?

YouTube- Broadcast Yourself.

A confusing part is at the start where he mentions using mineral spirits to thin out the mineral oil and also using the mineral spirits straight on the wood. I know mineral oil is what we call parrafin oil but am I right to assume mineral spirits is mineral turpentine?

And here is his first video of how to brush on the shellac.
YouTube- Broadcast Yourself.

Shane.

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Well I guess it works for him but I tried mineral spirits once to wet sand regular shellac, not hard shellac, and it softened it. I`ve sanded the hard shellac with parafin oil with no problems but it was recommended to me by a member of this forum not to do any polishing till the hard shellac fully crosslinks, 3 weeks. I`ve only been a member of this forum a short time and have found and been given more useful imformation than any I`d found during the last year on the net. They really know their shellac in Australia. I typed in shellac in the search box and found a lot of useful threads. Mike

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Originally Posted by Heartstrings

Well I guess it works for him but I tried mineral spirits once to wet sand regular shellac, not hard shellac, and it softened it. I`ve sanded the hard shellac with parafin oil with no problems but it was recommended to me by a member of this forum not to do any polishing till the hard shellac fully crosslinks, 3 weeks. I`ve only been a member of this forum a short time and have found and been given more useful imformation than any I`d found during the last year on the net. They really know their shellac in Australia. I typed in shellac in the search box and found a lot of useful threads. Mike

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I've probably been looking at the hard shellac in the wrong way. Maybe the method I should be doing is brushing on the main coats to build up the shellac thickness on the boxes. Then to leave it till crosslinked/hardened and instead of trying to get a polish using sandpaper etc and wax, should I be french polishing with a pad/rubber to achieve a gloss finish. Does this sound about right?

Is the "3 weeks" for crosslinking needed when the daytime temperature is constantly above 30c? Or is the 3 weeks a fairly conservative time frame taking into account winter temperatures of places such as victoria and tasmania?

Will a french polish/hard shellac finish stay glossy or will it eventually dull over time like wax? I'm wanting to reproduce a shiny finish similar to lacquer but don't want to use a wax finish to achieve the gloss level.

Shane.

I've been wonderig about the same questions as I'm keen to do hard shellac and wax as that has been foolproof and looked great for me in the past with normal shellac. From the label:

Apply as you would any other shellac... French Polishing, brush, spray or dip. Once applied the surface takes around 3 weeks to cure to its full hardness (less in hot weather)

So I'm going to give it a shot in 2 weeks!

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Originally Posted by Babylon5

I've probably been looking at the hard shellac in the wrong way. Maybe the method I should be doing is brushing on the main coats to build up the shellac thickness on the boxes. Then to leave it till crosslinked/hardened and instead of trying to get a polish using sandpaper etc and wax, should I be french polishing with a pad/rubber to achieve a gloss finish. Does this sound about right?

Is the "3 weeks" for crosslinking needed when the daytime temperature is constantly above 30c? Or is the 3 weeks a fairly conservative time frame taking into account winter temperatures of places such as victoria and tasmania?

Will a french polish/hard shellac finish stay glossy or will it eventually dull over time like wax? I'm wanting to reproduce a shiny finish similar to lacquer but don't want to use a wax finish to achieve the gloss level.

Shane.

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Shane, I found this thread by going to the musical instrument forum and in the( search this forum box ) I type in shellac. The one you want to go to is, Any hard shellac advice, by cps music. In it Neil the creator of hard shellac recommends a brushing method and a place to get high quality brushes. I tried it out this morning using a china bristle brush, ( that`s all I had in the shop ) which I beat the tip of the brush on the corner of the workbench to soften. I then applied it as he instructed with great results from a crappy brush. I plan to aquire the brushes he recommends and start brushing the finish from now on. I held the brush at an almost 90 degree angle to the surface after wringing the excess shellac from the brush against the lip of the jar, and I mean all the excess. When it stopped dripping off the brush I started on the workpiece just kissing the surface with the bristles. The thing I like about this product is it goes on well no matter how it`s applied:2tsup: Mike

Well my patience ran out today and I decided that a week was nearly long enough for the hard shellac to cure. With the really hot weather in Brisbane lately, I was sure the shellac would have cured well and truly enough to sand and try to polish.

And it had, I attempted to try and sand out some ridge marks left by using the brush. Took a bit but had semi success. After sanding and thus causing the finish to change from a nice gloss to a dull satin finish, I tried to recover the shine by using micro mesh and polish. Limited success, the finish ended up with a bit more shine but nothing like the full gloss look before I had sanded.

Next effort was to try padding/rubbing on more shellac. I thought it went on well but upon checking it just before, there are alot of ridges caused by padding it on. Even though I tried to use a small amount of shellac and some oil, I was unsuccessful in getting a totally smooth finish.

Tommorow is another day and another chance to fix things. I can do either of two things or I may just try both to see which is more effective. First is to try spraying the hard shellac. I have a wagner HVLP spay kit that I used for lacquer. Second is to try diluting the hard shellac mix down to a very weak solution and try to pad it on with using a little more parrafin oil this time.

Any suggestions on which might be a better idea?

Shane.

Ps. I took your advice mike and I read up on the other hard shellac threads. I noticed that back in 2007 Neil mentioned to not use Hard Shellac with talc. He suggested using the other shellac just not Hard Shellac to use with the talc to grain fill. Is that still applied with the new formula?

Shane, It sounds like your between a rock and a hard place. I believe I saw a post where it said not to use talc with the new formula, as for the shellac not coming to a full gloss, it sounds like it`s still not hard enough. Normal shellac softens after wet sanding with oil, I`m not sure if thats the case with hard shellac, if it is you might have to wait a couple days after sanding before polishing. Don`t know what kind of polish your using, I plan to get some of U-Beaut`s EEE just to make sure I`m using something compatable with the hard shellac. It could be your getting too much finish on the piece, spraying will eliminate the ridges but go easy, it`s not hard to dump too much finish on the surface. I set my gun to where I can see the shellac flash off as I`m spraying, I`m misting on several light coats usually 3 or 4 each spraying session working my way around the guitar and changing the direction I`m spraying with each coat. I wait 4hrs between each session. One thing I started doing a while back was to sand my finishes dry, no wet sanding, because I was always getting water in screw holes and such and lifting the lacquer and I`m doing the same thing with the hard shellac. I start with 3M Free Cut sandpaper, 800 grit from ( it`s gold colored in all grits ) and wrap it around sanding blocks I cut out of styrofoam ( I`m using 1inch thick stuff I had left over from insulating my crawl space ) and sand just enough to remove the grittyness left from spraying, then go to Abralon sanding discs ( by Mirka ), 1000, 2000, 4000 grits. You should be getting a good gloss by the time you get to 4000 and need minimal polishing at that point. If you think you`ve got a lot of finish on the piece already you might want to sand it back a bit before spraying. Good Luck!:2tsup: Mike

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Originally Posted by Heartstrings

Shane, It sounds like your between a rock and a hard place. I believe I saw a post where it said not to use talc with the new formula, as for the shellac not coming to a full gloss, it sounds like it`s still not hard enough. Normal shellac softens after wet sanding with oil, I`m not sure if thats the case with hard shellac, if it is you might have to wait a couple days after sanding before polishing. Don`t know what kind of polish your using, I plan to get some of U-Beaut`s EEE just to make sure I`m using something compatable with the hard shellac. It could be your getting too much finish on the piece, spraying will eliminate the ridges but go easy, it`s not hard to dump too much finish on the surface. I set my gun to where I can see the shellac flash off as I`m spraying, I`m misting on several light coats usually 3 or 4 each spraying session working my way around the guitar and changing the direction I`m spraying with each coat. I wait 4hrs between each session. One thing I started doing a while back was to sand my finishes dry, no wet sanding, because I was always getting water in screw holes and such and lifting the lacquer and I`m doing the same thing with the hard shellac. I start with 3M Free Cut sandpaper, 800 grit from ( it`s gold colored in all grits ) and wrap it around sanding blocks I cut out of styrofoam ( I`m using 1inch thick stuff I had left over from insulating my crawl space ) and sand just enough to remove the grittyness left from spraying, then go to Abralon sanding discs ( by Mirka ), 1000, 2000, 4000 grits. You should be getting a good gloss by the time you get to 4000 and need minimal polishing at that point. If you think you`ve got a lot of finish on the piece already you might want to sand it back a bit before spraying. Good Luck!:2tsup: Mike

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I have a swansdown mop that I use to apply EEE but didn't use either today. That would be a quick way to tell if the shellac has fully cured. The amount of friction generated by the mop I assume would quickly take all the uncured shellac from the surface.

It was so frustrating starting the day with the shellac finished boxes looking nice and glossy. I only had to remove the high ridges and other brush strokes and it just went all downhill from there. I'm pretty sure the shellac has cured dry enough as sanding back took more time than when I previously sanded back another piece that had only dried for a day or two.

I'll try and post a picture or two in the next couple of days. Until then I'll keep that famous quote, "Rome wasn't built in a day". It is all a learning process.

Shane.

Shane, Thought of a couple more things I should add about my sanding methods. One good thing about sanding dry is you can tell if the finish is cured enough right away, if the paper starts to gum up, it`s not hard enough. The Mirka Abralon disc`s have a foam back so if you want to use oil you can, just squirt some into the face of the disc and it will distribute itself on to the surface as you sand. I use the discs on my orbital sander for larger surfaces using a light touch, but I have to cut them down to 5inches in dia., because they only come in 6 and 3inch dia. I`ve used the Micro mesh before but thought they clogged too easily and had to wet sand only with them. Dry sanding you can see what`s going, if you start going through the finsh you can stop before doing even more damage. Since it`s been really hot at your location you might want to contact U-Beaut and see if it`s safe to add a retarder to the shellac before spraying. I`ve used it when spraying in hot wheather here in Ohio with regular shellac and it helped give a smoother finish. Hope some of this pays off for you:) Mike

Update...

Went looking for n-butanol for the shellac retarder. No luck after trying 5 different paint/ automotive shops. Some had heard of it and one place looked further into it and appears that n-butanol is a raw chemical. In the end I settled for buying a general retarder after they looked up the MSDS and it showed the retarder contained butyl acetate.

Tried to spray the boxes but finish wasn't as glossy/shiny as padding the hard shellac. Gave up with spraying the hard shellac.

I checked out this guys website fp banner frames page and tried to follow his instructions for glazing. Using the rubber I was able to get a nice glossy finish. I've attached some photos. The boxes still need some more sessions of hard shellac but was nice to see things going right for a change.

Shane.

Hi Shane,

The Millburn tutorial is the one most luthiers point people to as it is quite comprehensive. Youve probably worked it out by now but the final stage of any session is a polishing step. A vitually dry pad, rubbing really hard and fast, leaves a great finish.

Nice work BTW!

I've still got the ever so slightest of marks from where the rubber was wiping across the surface.

Has anyone had success using the tripoli powder to polish the surface? Is so has it retained the gloss instead of making the surface a satin finish look?

Quote from ubeaut website...

Use over French Polish for a brilliant blemish free sheen.

Dust the polished surface with the TRIPOLI POWDER and with a clean soft rag firmly rub the powder over the work until the desired effect is achieved. Clean off with a clean rag and if desired go over the whole surface with our Polish Reviver to help protect it from heat & water marks, etc. and to remove any residual traces of the TRIPOLI POWDER.

Can also be applied with a soft rag that has been moistened with paraffin oil or water to help lubricate the surface of the polish and make the work go easier.

Does anyone know a business that sells the tripoli powder on the north side of Brisbane? My current supplier is out of stock at the moment.

Regards,
Shane.

here ya go, TRIPOLI POWDER every time I have bought by mail its been at my postbox within a couple of days.

Ive used car polish (Meguiars #7) and Brasso for polishing with success.

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Originally Posted by Sebastiaan56

here ya go, TRIPOLI POWDER every time I have bought by mail its been at my postbox within a couple of days.

Ive used car polish (Meguiars #7) and Brasso for polishing with success.

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Thanks for the reply. Yes I was going to order directly from Ubeaut. But I was after the powder to use today or tommorow. Looks like I may have to end up getting it delivered by mail.

Shane.