Attach Heavy Beam to Brick Pillar- How?

Hi,
I have query. Building a pergolla, The main beam will be supported on 2 rendered brick pillars (350x350). One of these pillars is already in place and the other I will build myself. The question is how should I connect the timber beam to the exisiting brick pillar? I can simply place the beam ontop of the new pillar but cannot do so on the exisiting pillar. This beam is quite large and heavy (5m single span x 240 x 45) and supports the entire weight of the pergolla.

I was considering using something like dynabolts to secure either a joist hanger directly onto the pillar or another piece of timber 1st onto the pillar and then use a joist hanger ontop of that. I'm in doubts though whether this will be strong enough (remember this beam spans 5m and is supported only by these 2 pillars.)

Maybe these chemical anchors would be better, or should I look at something totally different. I had also thought about "cutting" a matching hole through the bricks and slotting the beam in but don't know if this would work either.

Many Thanks
Paul.

Before you even think about connecting the pillar, (so I won't go there with this post) do you know how it is built?

Even a pergola, particularly the act of building one can put side loads and it is not impossible for a 350 square brick pillar to crack at ground or footing level, making it a real danger for passing kids etc., particularly if at some time in the future someone hangs a swing, hammock or whatever off it.

I pushed two over at my place just after I moved in, after I discovered the cracks as described( because I know what can happen so went looking), and believe me, it's a very easy thing to do.

If the existing one is not filled, reinforced and tied to the footing, since you are building another one anyway, why not knock it down and do it right?

That would have the added advantage of allowing you to sort out the connection to match the other.

Cheers,

Paranoid P ;)

Hi,

This is a new house and I indeed know how the pillar is built. Basically on a (thick) concrete slab as base. The centre of the pillar has a steel post bolted to the slab and the bricks surround the post. These pillars support a 5m x 5m outdoor tiled roof pavillion which has some fairly large laminated beams supported on these pillars so I think it is quite solid. I would intend to build the new pilar in the same way, ie with a steal post as the pillar centre.

Cheers
Paul.

Are you submitting this to council. If not you are taking a risk. If you are you may find they will need an engineers recommendation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by plucka

Hi,

This is a new house and I indeed know how the pillar is built. Basically on a (thick) concrete slab as base. The centre of the pillar has a steel post bolted to the slab and the bricks surround the post. These pillars support a 5m x 5m outdoor tiled roof pavillion which has some fairly large laminated beams supported on these pillars so I think it is quite solid. I would intend to build the new pilar in the same way, ie with a steal post as the pillar centre..

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Paul,
Sounds like it should hold up!! :D
Barry is right.... check that it won't cause a problem and bolt through the steel, don't trust the brick skin.

Now wait for some proper advice! :D
Cheers,

P

Seeing as how Im going out of the bricklaying business, I have dozens of cracks for sale going cheap.

If anyone is interested I could do a bulk lot.

Al :)

Paul, you don't say how high the steel post runs up the guts but one way (at least on the pillar you build) is to concrete in a gal steel pergola bracket at the top. There are numerous types and sizes available these days and if none are suitable for the beam a welding shop should be able to knock one up.

Bolting into a small brick pillar will not produce a very strong arrangement for lateral loads. The connection, whatever the method, needs to apply loads to the whole pillar/section if you know what I mean.

There are heaps of those stand alone/four post carports built out the front of new houses these days and a span of 5 metres is not that big considering most of these are 6 metres plus. It just needs to be done properly. See if you can get a look at a couple to check out the connection.

Hope this helps

Cheers

Thanks for the comments,

I do intend to get council approval. As for the post it runs right up through the entire pillar, right to the top. How would I go about attaching the beam to this post? I'd have to cut through the bricks first somehow.

Cheers
Paul.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by plucka

Thanks for the comments,

I do intend to get council approval. As for the post it runs right up through the entire pillar, right to the top. How would I go about attaching the beam to this post? I'd have to cut through the bricks first somehow.

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Paul,

It all gets a bit hard to describe with words......where is the beam in relation to the post in plan? Is it going to butt into the centre? How far from the top?

If you are going to get an approval, you will need to have a drawing prepared by a draftsman or engineer, and they will be able to answer these questions for you (one would hope).

If you need an alternative after you have had a drawing prepared, why not scan a copy and we can then critique it based on hard information?

Cheers,

p

Quote:

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Originally Posted by plucka

Thanks for the comments,

I do intend to get council approval. As for the post it runs right up through the entire pillar, right to the top. How would I go about attaching the beam to this post? I'd have to cut through the bricks first somehow.

Cheers
Paul.

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If the post is exposed at the top then you could weld a bracket to the top for the beam. A big section of oddleg angle iron is commonly used (100 x 175)You may have to take a level of bricks off. On the existing pillar you may have an existing bracket which you could plate and bolt to?

It sounds like you are tieing this in with existing structure. Therefore the beam and its rafters will tie up and and provide you with protection against racking forces (if its all sound). What you are essentially trying to do is secure it down (against vertical forces) so that wind doesn't get underneath it and lift it off. This is often overlooked.

No the top of the pillar is not exposed, a roof sits on top. The beam will be about 60cm from the top of the pillar (so that it fits under the eaves of the roof). I just had another idea. What if a get some long bolts that go right through the pillar and out the other side, securing some kind of joist hanger to the pillar, these bolts would be going though 350mm of brick/mortar, surely that would be more than enough, especially if I use say 6 of these bolts.

Plucka,
from your description, it sounds like you need to take a few courses of bricks off, weld a bracket on the post, fit your beam and then cut and refit bricks around it. Don't muck around with bolted on brackets etc, you're going to be laying bricks anyway.

Mick

I really dont want to go down that path, having no expereince in either welding or rendering. I think the long bolts would work otherwise I think I would just forget about this pillar idea and go with putting in some standard timber posts in stirrups, just wouldn't look as good though.

Paul, On a pillar I think the vibrations from drilling such big long holes will damage or weaken the brickwork. If you haven't got the availability of a welder there's not a lot that can be done.

Your idea of a hanger is on the right track. If you can remove a section of the ceiling at the top of the existing pillar try a piece of steel plate (or timber and brackets) bolted to the beam up in the existing roof and running the depth down the side of the pillar with a couple of ramset/wall bolts into the side of pillar as well.

You could make a plywood dummy and take it to a fabrication shop. This would give a solid hanger for your beam. Only other thing I can think (apart from putting in a pergola post as you suggest) is to make another pillar beside it with the same bricks?.

I guess you could stand and bolt a 4 x 4 up against the pillar?. May not look too bad. Hoping this helps.

Cheers

Paul, My mate has the same situation and the builder butted the beam up under the existing gutter against the metal, fitted a bracket to the end of one of the rafters (behind and through the facia) that bolts to the beam and then put in a post about a metre away from the gutter edge. Effectively the bracket is not doing too much but the additional pillar looks better than butted right up against the existing one. This would reduce your span to 4 metres or a bit less. More work but its one way of doing it.

Thats it, I'm fresh out of ideas

Ok, so the additional post is taking most of the weight. What if I added a 100x100 post into the middle of the span, that would take a lot of the weight then surely I could just use dynabolts to attach the end of the beam to the brick pillar?

Sounds reasonable. What type of roof are you putting on, or are you using shadecloth?.

No roof, just battens.

With no sheeting/roofing your loads will be a lot less so it would all seem reasonable. This then begs the question; why not just use a 4 x 2, why such a big beam?. I assume its to fit in with the existing structure/style. What is the distance from the house/structure?. (Sorry to be nosey)

Don't really need a roof as it's just to give some shade protection and still let the breeze in, besides I think some of the plastic sheeting type roofs look ugly. I can always add a roof later if need be. I was looking a big beam (240x45) because of the large 5m span but your right if I go with a centre post I could use a smaller beam. As for its location the back of the pergolla will butt against the house and one side will be against an existing pavillion (hence the pillars).

I find a lot of those plastic roof sheeting stuff are really hot in summer. You can feel the heat pumping out of them. If you put sheeting on you may have to look at gutters depending on your council. A friend rolls the shadecloth out in summer and takes it off in winter. A 6 x 2 may do it for your beam.

The shadecloth sounds like a good idea, otherwise might end up growing a vine on it. In terms of timber what do you recommend. CCA Pine or I;ve heard this pink primed stuff is good. I'll be wanting to paint it so I guess the pre primed would be best.

I have never made a pergola out of anything other than jarrah or steel so can't help there. I would say that lots of pergolas are put up and are only painted from below so the tops of everything rots/gets water in etc even jarrah. I'd paint as much as possible before you develop an erec...before you put it up:)