parental responsibility

In the what is your occupation thread there was a digression into a discussion of children with attention problems which, together with a broadcast I heard on the radio at the weekend, made me think about parental responsibility.

I found Derek’s remarks that the attention problems don’t excuse rudeness etc extremely enlightening. I have a friend whose extremely bright teenage son has “problems” which make me extremely unwilling to spend time in his company if I can possibly avoid it due to his poor behaviour.

I have to confess that there have been many times when I have wondered if his behaviour would be quite so appalling if his parents hadn’t been making excuses for him for the past 13 years.

The strongest response I’ve heard his mother make to behaviour which I wouldn’t tolerate by a 3 year old is “please don’t do that”. I can understand that she may just be too worn down to insist on better behaviour but I don’t think she’s doing him any favours in the long run. In fact I feel that as a parent it is here responsibility to equip him with skills which enable him to interact successfully with other people.

The radio program was about two 15 year olds in Western Australia who burned down two houses and whose parents have been ordered to make financial restitution according to their means to the victims of their crimes.

My understanding is that the parents were judged to have been negligent in their supervision of their sons and therefore liable to make recompense.

The legal expert interviewed appeared horrified at the ruling implying that it wasn’t appropriate to heavily supervise 15 year olds ( who had been getting into trouble for some period of time).

Her point seemed to be that the state hadn’t done anything to help these children so why should the parents be penalised for their failure to take responsibility for where their sons were and what they were doing.

I have to say that I was pretty appalled at her attitude … which seemed to totally ignore the fact that these two louts who don’t appear to have been mentally retarded and so presumably ought to know better at that age had committed criminal acts of some magnitude.

As a parent I’d feel morally obliged to make some kind of restitution anyway if my son had burned down someone’s house … and provided I still had the weight and height advantage he probably wouldn’t be sitting down again any time soon.

So what are the responsibilities of a parent … and when do they stop? Should we say when our children get to (say) 15 my job is done your behaviour is nothing to do with me? Or is it when they leave school or when they get to 18?

Jackiew,
Why did you go there?
Would a wooden spoon keep it on topic?

I 'help' some of our youth in town. The ones who don't need it accept it.
Those who do need it refuse it.

I've heard some brag amongst themselves [so they thought]
about turning their symptoms on and off to suit.

The 'not so few' ruin it for the majority, AGAIN.

Soapbox mode ORF :(

Count

Jackiew

As my comments in the other thread imply, I am 100% in agreement.

It doesn't have to be all negative. Hug them when they need it ( and when they don't!) and beat them when they deserve it (or whatever your alternative may be)

Do lots of both as required.

Do things as a family.

Laugh (lots)

Alastair

A very complex issue, Jackie. I think that there is no one silver bullet and that it will depend on so many things, including the personality of the kids and the parents, the environment in which they live, etc. etc.

Regarding the two kids that burned down that house, they obviously had problems to begin with. Maybe the parents could have done more? My mum would probably say that they needed a good hiding every now and then. Didn't hurt me when I was a kid and I generally have respect for others. Maybe that's why. On the other hand, you get dragged off to court and charged with assault if you go around doing that sort of thing these days.

So if they get to 15 and they've turned into scumbags, what do you do? Do you blame yourself or wash your hands of it? Perhaps parents should be able to divorce kids too?

Thinking about the kids I went to school with, the majority were basically good at heart, even some of the badly-behaved ones. They knew where to draw the line. On the other extreme, one of my school buddies at 17 years of age went to Sydney and murdered a cab driver by tying him up, locking him in the boot, and setting it on fire. Apparently for the hell of it. His brothers and sister were happy, good-natured kids at school. What happened to him? Was it his parent's fault?

I think that a lot of control is taken out of parents' hands these days. I know if either of my kids starts down that path, they will come to a short stop on the end of my boot but I also know that if they want they can take that 'power' away from me too.

Jackie
I have a mate who is a school principal, he reckons teaching is so much harder now because teachers have to also deal with discipline, and spend time dealing with that when they could be teaching them stuff. And it gets back to parents and their responsiblity to their kids.

A lot of things parents i think sub-contract out their responsibilty for their childrens behaviour to the school who aren't resourced to cope.

My wifes brother is a motor mechanic and he reckoned that anyone who drives a car should do a course in basic car maintainence. My wife (a preschool teacher) reckons anyone who has kids should do a course too!!

It really is a problem for society to deal with, in previous generations the extended family and local community shared and helped out new parents. These days I reckon we have lost extended families and a sense of community, and parents reckon they can do what ever they think is best.

Just some thoughts to a very complex issue.

Growing up in what I would deem a well adjusted family with all the love and attention that could be afforded a large family we were rewarded for good behaviour and chastised by unseemly /improper behaviour by having those things/treats we valued denied us for a while.
Out parents used a good psychological approach without the need for physical reproach in the upbringing in those halcyon days of 40's,50's 60's.

It appeared a 'Sign" of the times that in a small town growing up then, good manners and behaviour were very much an expected norm.
Should anyone cross those boundaries then which did naturally happen he/she was castigated by the town or a virtual outcast,but some of those folk have since also become leading lights within the community in todays terms.

In my view society over the evolving decades could go back and look at the conventions leading to todays ills involving our folk of today and the "I want at any cost mentality" that appears endemic in modern society irrespective of the hurt that be caused by it.

Just last week we had front page news here in the West of a nine year old young fellow having been party to 60 odd break-ins or other anti-social acts with the police powerless to act because of his age.

Unfortunately I don't have any answers neither does society in my view otherwise we would not be in this predicament.

Just my views with no intended bias
Cheers :)

Jackview,

I think it is something to do with the way you bring children up. I don't agree with assaulting kids neither do I agree with letting them run riot. Leading by example worked well with our two who are both responsible adults. No, they are not little goody goodies but a pleasure to spend time with, people we are proud to call our kids.

When our daughter did something wrong, rather than whack her, I used to hold her hand and slowly move my finger towards the held hand. When my finger touched her hand she would become upset not because I had hurt her but because she understood she had hurt us by misbehaving.

In other words we put in a lot of time making our kids aware of their responsibilities and being aware of how their actions affect others. This was done in a loving and caring environment.

So what do you do with little Johnny who is 15 and making life a misery for everyone else? I suggest you proclaim to the world that your approach to bringing up kids does not work and strongly advise other parents not to bring their kids up that way. Perhaps Johnny is a lost cause in most cases.

In a similar way, how do you straighten a leaning tree that is 1m in diameter and 30m tall? Perhaps staking it 50 years ago might have been the approach.

Perhaps there are some kids born with some chemical imbalance in their heads that causes them not to behave responsibly, for that professional advice should have been sought when they were still in the crib not after they are vandalsing, stealing, raping and burning.

Although we only have one grandchild (another well on the way) she is also well behaved and a pleasure to babysit.

Perhaps we were blessed with two good kids or perhaps it was their upbringing or perhaps it was both, either way they turned out OK and we are happy.

- Wood Borer

Ivan, why did I raise the thread? well it obviously was a big digression to what is your occupation!!!!

As the part-time parent of a teenager who will ( I assume ) soon be flexing his wings and pushing at the boundaries even harder than ever I'm interested in how other people cope.

I come from a "traditional" working class background with older than average parents and older than average grandparents ... and I was brought up with very clear boundaries for what was appropriate and inappropriate behaviour and very clear penalties for transgressions.

I was no angel but I knew damn well that if I got caught there would be consequences to face and my misdeeds were performed with an acceptance that I would probably not enjoy what would happen if I got caught.

My style of parenting reflects my upbringing but I am aware that I now seem to be in the minority.

I expect my son to adhere to certain standards of behaviour when he lives in my house at my expense. In return he'll be fed, clothed and chauffeured about( within reason). I'm his parent, I don't expect that he'll always like me, I'm not his friend and he didn't choose me. But he can expect me to try to do the right thing by him while he's under my roof. I can see its going to get harder as he gets older ... so at what age do you stop asking ... where are you going, who will you be with , what time are you getting back ... and at what age are you justified in still saying ... its a school night you aren't going out.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jackiew

Ivan, why did I raise the thread? well it obviously was a big digression to what is your occupation!!!!

I'm his parent, I don't expect that he'll always like me,

I'm not his friend and he didn't choose me.

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Jackiew,
Wow!
Most of that was just like a MIRROR.

Parents and Grand Parents in their 40 when they had kids,
and Guess what,
I was 40 when I started :eek:


> I'm his parent, I don't expect that he'll always like me,
> I'm not his friend and he didn't choose me.

Nah!!
I'd like to be their friend, whilst remaining a 'good' parent.
Who's going to define 'GOOD' ?

Count

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ivan in Oz

Jackiew,

I'd like to be their friend, whilst remaining a 'good' parent.

Count

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don't think you can be their friend ( well at least not at the time ) and still be a good parent sometimes.

I can't be the only one who can still hear mum/nan's voice still ringing in my ears ... "I don't care whether you want to do it or not, you're doing it anyway". At the time I didn't necessarily think they had my best interests at heart. In hindsight I mostly think they did.

I'm going on a road trip soon with my mum and my son. Should be a good opportunity to find out if we actually like each other :rolleyes:

I think the problem is is that single parenting is so common these days and that lacks the balance of female/male role models in the home.

I am a single mum, have been since my son was 6 weeks old and the father then realised he didn't want that responsibility over his head :mad: .

It is a tough game to play both parents and constantly. I try to be his friend, but you give an inch they take a mile.
If there is workmen here, he talks their ears off. He knows what is missing from his life and its a shame that it turned out this way. But I do my best to raise him with morals and respect for others. BUT if he burns down someones house and I raised him to the best of my ability and he knew right from wrong, I wont pay up. That was his choice, not mine.

I was brought up in a stable home with Mum and Dad. An older bro and sis. We moved every 3 years thanks to the RAAF. I was a ratbag and lied, slept out and mum never knew where I was. I told her one thing and did another. From 13 onwards kids know right from wrong and only a minority would of been neglected in thier upbringing.

I also heard too, that making parents pay will only be ruled for those that can afford to pay. :mad: But that is from the media and we should never trust what we hear or read.

Sorry to ramble,
gemi

Surely the forum record for the longerst average reply!

Well here's my thoughts.

I'm scheduled to become a dad in 5 weeks at the relatively young age of 25. I was also brought up in a moral house where we got a good old fashioned smack when we did something wrong. And I turned out all right.

Well actually, I turned out allright because I was smarter than my parents in realising that resorting smacking is for those who's parenting skills require them to resort to physical violence and intimidation to control their kids. I When I was being "good" I was actually sitting their mute, fearful and full of hate. Not really conducive to learning is it?


I dont really care what the old-timers say, I'm 6'3 and 100kg and I'm certainly not going to use violence, pain and the threat of pain to discipline my child - thats abuse.

It is on display so often at your local shopping centre, mum ignores kids, then yells at them to stop mucking around, they dont, yells some more, then whack. 2 minutes later, they're back at it because they know they can get away with it for X period of time.

I'd love to see some research, but I would bet all my $$ Tha those 15yr olds and all the problem kids in the papers had the living beaten out of them regularly.

I apologies if I'm blunt, and I understand that many people will think "You dont know what your in for mate". My answer is that I've watched my wife handle a up to 20 toddlers in a room (thats her job) without ever resorting to intimidation, threats or negativity. The difference is that most of "good old fashioned smackers" think that a room full of well behaved kids is a quiet one, when in fact it should be noisy as hell from healthy happy kids who arent living in fear of their "loving" parents

phew, that feels better.
(I have this argument with my smackhappy sister)

And let me just say, that having been a teenager quite recently (ahem) I know I did some pretty bad stuff, and was just an all round pain. Given that I was too old to smack anymore, Mum & Dad had lost their only discipline tool. It would have been nice if:

I actually respected them
They knew just a little bit about me
I was able to talk to them about the issues that all teens go thru.

Basically, if I could have been "friends" with them. Instead they had a similar attitude to Jackview and I really didnt give a stuff what they thought about me or my actions.

The further downside to that parenting style, is now that I'm an adult and starting a family of my own, with a different parenting style, I'm labeled a snob and w@nker

Dont get me wrong, Kids need limits, enforced by their understanding of and involvement in those limits. What are good are limits designed to suit the inadequacies of parents, and enforced by exactly the type of behaviour that you're trying to prevent?

Book me in derek, I need an appointment.

I came from a large family and my parents have never smacked or hit me. But when we, the younger ones, played up too much my elder brothers were not adverse to belting us in order to keep the peace at home. Whilst I did not always agree with them because of their attitude I learned to respect them.

I have never hit my kids, as I would instead withdraw priveliges, and they grew up allright, so good luck Line lefty.

Peter.

Well most of the comments that have been made here are by people who haven't experienced the unrelenting antisocial behaviour that some kids adopt.

The old saying that there is a bad apple in every barrel can be devastating when its your apple.

Two of my kids are wonderful well balanced caring adults but the third should have been drowned as a pup. If kids get into the wrong peer group that can create untold harm.