The comment was intended to be tongue in cheek while having a little bit of a dig at the whole idea of autonomous vehicles (at least for the foreseeable future) and AI in general.Quote:
Originally Posted by ian
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The comment was intended to be tongue in cheek while having a little bit of a dig at the whole idea of autonomous vehicles (at least for the foreseeable future) and AI in general.Quote:
Originally Posted by ian
I wasn't sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tccp123
However, I'm not a believer let alone a convert when it comes to autonomous vehicles.
To my mind, the road system is just too complex an environment to allow for automated vehicle operation.
And requiring a live person to "monitor" the operation of the autonomous vehicle is beyond a joke. NASA has done experiments that clearly demonstrate that even when highly trained people are required to "monitor" the operation of a vehicle they just can't. Their reaction time climbs into the 10s of seconds, if not minutes, primarily because their attention wonders onto other things. Even a thing as seemingly innocuous as cruise control leads to a person's attention span blowing out.
CBC news for Alberta March 17 at 18:00 MDT
Parks Canada closes all visitor centres across Canada Parks Canada closes all visitor services across the country to limit COVID-19 spread | CBC News
Alberta's Premier declares public health emergency '''This is a serious moment in our history''': Alberta Premier Jason Kenney declares public health emergency | CBC News
International travelers ordered to self isolate Calgary says it'''s no longer a suggestion for international travellers to self-isolate — it'''s an order | CBC News
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tccp123
Hahahha! This is EXACTLY what I was going to write!
In the OTHER thread, on climate change (that thread was the biggest until this), is that auto-cars and auto-trucks would be an excellent advantage to have now.
I can almost guarantee that the trucking companies are ramping up their automation efforts.
I'm reminded of a book I read a looooong time ago, by Bill Bryson, in which he discussed as part of his style of rambling narrative, about how the plague locked Isaac Newton indoors for quite a period. In this period he had time to reflect (haha) on many of the attribute of existence and supposedly came up with calculus, the anatomy of light and a few other interesting things.
So good can come of bad. Ill see if I can find that. There is reference to it here: Isaac Newton - Wikipedia
Hi Ian, You may want to qualify that belief system. Fully autonomous vehicles have already been utilised within the mining, farming, construction and warehouse sectors and shown drastic improvements in the productivity, worker safety and economy of these industries. Mining in particular continues to make multi-billion dollar investments in this tech. And if you get the chance, get a tour of some modern logistics operations. No forklift drivers or yard vehicle drivers in sight.Quote:
Originally Posted by ian
I agree that the use case for consumer level autonomous diving is overhyped. The main issue however won't be so much the technology, but legislative environment.
I suspect that the first use cases we will see will be "trackless trains" where certain highway corridors would be cordoned from general traffic, allowing platooned trucks to make long-haul deliveries.
Just a qualification of this (and without wanting to hijack this thread) just thought it worth mentioning the BHP autonomous train that had to be deliberately derailed almost exactly a year ago in the Pilbara after having travelled 91km without a driver. At a cost of $55m per day till the track was repaired one can only speculate how far that set autonomous trains back in their development...and that was only going from point A to point B!Quote:
Originally Posted by RossM
Hi Ian, You may want to qualify that belief system. Fully autonomous vehicles have already been utilised within the mining, farming, construction and warehouse sectors and shown drastic improvements in the productivity, worker safety and economy of these industries. Mining in particular continues to make multi-billion dollar investments in this tech. And if you get the chance, get a tour of some modern logistics operations. No forklift drivers or yard vehicle drivers in sight.Quote:
Originally Posted by ian
I agree that the use case for consumer level autonomous diving is overhyped. The main issue however won't be so much the technology, but legislative environment.
I suspect that the first use cases we will see will be "trackless trains" where certain highway corridors would be cordoned from general traffic, allowing platooned trucks to make long-haul deliveries.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 44Ronin
Not quite accurate.
I got a reply from my friend, the specialist in public health, sent at 3.30 am this morning - "... so much going on that I can't sleep so I may as well answer your email..." and then essentially gave me a lecture. Summarising:
You should never refer to the rogue virus as coronavirus; it is COVID-19.
Coronavirus is a massive family of closely and not so closely related viruses that are constantly mutating.
By analogy with the animal kingdom: lions and tigers are both members of the cat family, neither are dogs, and there are several sub-species of tigers. All can interbreed including lions with tigers and other large cats but commonly do not because of geographical or preference factors. Corona viruses are less well studied than cats, and probably more complex. The constant mutations are a real challenge to researchers and pose the limitting factor with flu vaccines and treatments.
COVID-19 is a type of coronavirus.
SARS is a type of coronavirus.
MERS is a type of coronavirus.
Influenza is a series of types of coronavirus.
So simple, so complex.
An absurd situation at ALDI this morning. They have decided to open at 9.30 instead of 8.30 to allow staff extra time to stock the shelves. Last night they sent out an email to those who have set previous "product availability" reminders. (also advising that you could no longer return bumroll because you were an idiot and purchased 100 packets).
At the time of reading the email I thought "good idea, and fair enough" because retail staff would have been copping heaps in the last weeks.
So this morning I showed up at 9.30 because I wanted to panic buy a $100 coffee grinder (which is pretty good BTW). There were two queues outside the two ways in to the store (which meet at the main entrance, and there would have been about 200 people - which will soon be illegal...).
The main point here is that NONE of these people were practising social distancing, and were all within 30-50cm of the next person ahead of them. I was the only person to stand on the other side of the 1.5m wide ramp (3 ramps each at least 20m long). That gave me a triangular distance of about 1-1.2m from the people before and after me. Those people respected my wishes as the queue slowly inserted itself into the store at 9.30.
But what about the people at the head of the queue? They must have been there for at least 20 minutes I'd say...with dickheads right on top of them. :doh:
I quickly grabbed the grinder and headed for the checkout. The woman behind me wasn't just close....she was brushing against me in her rush to place 4 small items on the rolling counter (I was just holding the grinder box to avoid contact with anything). I turned around and gestured for her to keep back a bit (just held my hands up slightly) and she objected! Decided she should feign a cough for my benefit. I said "That's why" and apparently it was only because I was "carrying on" (by a slight gesture with my hands). W.T.F. is the matter with people? :(( I said to this idiot "I am only trying to do what the health authorities have told us to do".
The manager was standing there on my way out so I said that whilst I understood their need for more hours to restock, the queue that was the result was a disaster, and that the needed security guards to keep people apart in the queue. He said "We've got one there." Yes, standing at the door doing NOTHING. They need one on each ramp for about 20-30 minutes before opening, or at least a staff member (probably sufficient) to ensure people stay apart.
I'd be pretty sure the whole opening an hour later at 9.30 has only increased the panic. It must be bedlam in the big(ger) smoke.
And IIRC it was a human error in the first place that let the train go out of control....Quote:
Originally Posted by Tccp123
Me, too.Quote:
Originally Posted by ian
But can you switch off the "death switch" when "just enough" people have died? And how does one set or calculate "just enough"? Or is the herd immunity concept a justification for doing nothing?
If you look at Hatchetts graph in my post #295 above, could you argue that Philladelphia followed the herd immunity concept and that St Louis followed the concept of vigorous early intervention and social separation?
Official response:Quote:
Originally Posted by FenceFurniture
"The driver, Peter Frick, was sacked but has since reached a settlement with the company after taking his case to the Fair Work Commission.
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An internal investigation by BHP found the incident was the result of “procedural non-compliance by the operator” and “integration issues with the electronically controlled pneumatic braking system”.
“Even if the track support team had have attended the correct train and applied manual brakes, it would not have been enough to stop the roll-away event,” a BHP spokeswoman said in a statement.
mining and warehousing are all very very controlled environments where automated vehicles can excel.Quote:
Originally Posted by RossM
farming is a less controlled environment, but vehicle speeds are low and pedestrians almost completely absent.
but "trackless trains" still require adequate lane markings or some sort of in pavement sensor.
where I remain highly skeptical is being convinced that there any legislative environment can accommodate the behaviour of pedestrians and cyclists urban environment or not.
Unless an automated vehicle is given carte blanche to run over all pedestrians and cyclists in their path, I can't see how there can be a legislative fix. If I know that the approaching vehicle is programmed to stop or swerve to avoid a collision if I step in front of it -- what's to stop me doing exactly that?
Short of fencing every street and gating every pedestrian crossing I remain to be convinced.
Irrespective of whether automated vehicles are a possibility, and they clearly are in some restricted environments, it is a little fanciful that they will become a reality on a our roads during the likely currency of the Covid-19 virus.
Regards
Paul
Does that all mean it was totally non-human error (it's a bit of a vague response on their part)? My memory of it is not detailed, but I seem to recall that it was avoidable and that poor decisions were taken, and much too late. Maybe not - like I say "If I Recall Correctly". Wasn't it something along the lines of "ok, the auto system has failed" and then preventative action (derailing) was substantially delayed and the train got too much speed up which created much more damage than it otherwise would have. I have some memory of a guy running alongside that train but then he couldn't keep up. (maybe I'm confusing it with "Runaway" :D)Quote:
Originally Posted by Tccp123
Quote:
Originally Posted by FenceFurniture
Woollies here did the reverse.
They openned an hour early for "centrelink concession card holders" and got the same massive crowd. Their shelf stackers arrived at the same time and were valiently trying to restock shelves depleted the previous day. Chaos.
Fortuitously, I chose to stay in bed.
Why couldn't Aldi and Woollies rostered their shelf stackers on early ?
Let's be honest, we'll never know. I doubt that BHP would say anything that would discredit the autonomous train idea and I doubt that the driver would readily make submissions that would implicate himself. But the cause is irrelevant I think and I only quoted it to show that the technology is far from a fait accompli. If it (a system costing billions of $$$ and capable of causing millions of $$$ damage when it goes wrong) can be derailed (pun intended) by something as simple as the driver not applying the emergency brake (which seems to be the implication) then it's got a long way to go.Quote:
Originally Posted by FenceFurniture
My most immediate concern of Covid-19, which I will refer to by that designation to avoid any confusion as to which disease group it belongs, is what is going to be done to stem the spread and how we ourselves identify that we may have contracted the disease.
Firstly, I don't believe we can stop Covid-19 as it is going to run it's course until such time as a vaccine is produced or another form of control is found (injection of antibodies from resistant persons or those recovered from an attack?). The issue is to spread the rate of infected cases over time so the system is not overloaded and people are unable to get treatment: That would result in an escalation of the disease and it would replicate the experiences of some other countries already (China, Iran, South Korea, Italy, Spain, France etc).
This was brought home, literally, this morning when SWMBO announced she had a sore throat. I also have had an annoying tickle type cough too, but it is so intermittent that I have dismissed it as dust (happens maybe three to four times in a twelve hour period and is no longer happening at all). Of course with our heightened awareness our thought immediately races to whether we might have contracted Covid-19. It is unlikely as we have not been exposed to high risk groups (travellers or known infected people). Having said that SWMBO is in the age related high risk category, although she is generally well and a lot more active than the vast majority of fifty year olds and I suppose I am not too far behind in the age aspect. However, hypochondria kicks straight in with a vengeance. :rolleyes:
This led me to try to find some more definitive information including detail on the myths that abound. I have previously mentioned Covid-19 displays some factors that have not been commonly seen in other coronavirus outbreaks and in themselves are more worrying as we don't absolutely know their implications. This has the potential to promote more fear again.
When I went searching for information several aspects were foremost in my mind. The infectious period, the symptoms or lack of them, the requirements for self isolation as in how isolated we should make ourselves and in particular whether Covid-19 is affected by heat. I turned up a report by a UK fact check organisation that had responded to a post which went viral. The post made ten claims. The Fact Check org said some were accurate and some were inaccurate. They are outlined below with the claim on the left in italics and the evaluation on the right:
Attachment 470095
Attachment 470096
Attachment 470097
Attachment 470098
The full report and detail of modification on the original post are in this link:
Viral post about someone’s uncle’s coronavirus advice is not all it’s cracked up to be - Full Fact
We should not take this information as absolute, as the truth is that nobody quite knows, including experts in the field. However it may be that this virus is able to survive in elevated temperatures. We will know more about this as the Northern hemisphere approaches summer and we in the South approach winter.
Just as an aside SWMBO headed off to her book club meeting today where she may be one of the younger members. Ater phoning the hospital first for advice. She has taken a P2 mask with her. Last night we were with a group of eleven people where I was the youngest, SWMBO was the second youngest one person was celebrating her 82nd birthday and another couple were celebrating their 60th wedding anniversary! Physical contact was avoided, but still I wonder whether we should do this any more for the immediate future. (That is the meetings rather than the physical contact :wink: .
Our daughter said her entire workforce is now operating from home.
It does bring home both the difficulty and the reality of going about everyday life. It is going to be different for a while.
Regards
Paul
Hmmm. :think: Yesterday I read this entire thread for the first time. I had...not so much a headache...but a tightness across the forehead. This morning when I was catching up on new posts I had a very slight roughness of the throat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushmiller
On both occasions the symptoms cleared up upon ceasing reading this thread. :D
In relation to the BHP train derailment. It was NOT an autonomous train. Prior to the driver alighting to rectify a problem he applied the emergency brake,but what he didn't realise was the brake would release after a set time. IIRC the enquiry found that no railway operators anywhere in Australia, using this particular technology, were aware of the self releasing feature at that time.
Cheers,
Geoff.
If the human body temp is approx 37oC, how someone came up with the statement that temps of 26/27oC will kill the virus is beyond me.
If I wanted to look after the sick and infirm and expose my self to whatever, I would have become a doctor or a nurse. They chose that profession, I didn’t. Besides that, pictures show them all dressed in protective suits and masks.Quote:
Originally Posted by BobL
Our management and the Govt keep stressing the importance of the social distance but expect us to work within that distance.
i sent a student home today because he came in sniffing with a runny nose.
Working From Home.
I suspect that this will become quite a lot more permanent than it has been in the past. The current situation is clearly going to force it into place. Employers are likely to see that productivity actually increases, along with job satisfaction, when people are working from home for perhaps 3 days per week (I'm talking about after all the shenanigans quietens down). Employees are likely to see that they are far less stressed (no travelling a few days a week is just the start) and are probably able to achieve more in less actual time on the job.
Furthermore, and a longer term benefit, employers will suddenly realise that they don't need to devote as much resource to desks and other workplace requirements.
:ranton: (sorry, slightly OT, but related to above)
Back 7 or 8 years ago, when all the NBN argy bargy was going on, I was an advocate for basically spending what it would take to put in the very best system available with the current and about-to-mature technology. Fibre to the premises absolutely everywhere that it was reasonably feasible. I was asked a couple of times "why?" and my answer was "because of all the stuff that we haven't thought of or invented yet that a stupendous NBN would be able to handle - the very best tech available now is already out of date by the time you get home."
Stuff we haven't thought of yet? Well, enforced working from home due to a pandemic would be just one of those things. One should never EVER put in a system that will used at full capacity - there's no wriggle room. (yes I know that NBN have said the system will handle it....but so far that's just talk from a bunch of self-servers)
What's the bet that within (say) 5-8 years we have to spend an absolute fortune (like the same amount again) on upgrading the NBN? AFAIK the NBN spend was roughly the same as the money spent on keeping the country going during the GFC (wasn't the deficit about $40Bills?). And now just 12 years later we're (Bomp. Bada-bomp, bada-bomp) Back In Black. And in our 29th, and last, year of uninterrupted growth.
NO! Back In Balance! (a really crap name for a song).
Oh wait......maybe not that either......
Back in Stimulus! Now we're rockin! What a great title.
Thanks a lot Fizza. Your sell-out to the unthinking short-sighted self-serving members is likely to cost a helluva lot more than the original plan.
:rantoff:
Ordinarily yes, but some might well say (not me) that these are not ordinary times, this is war. How are teachers for example different from a check out operator at a pharmacy or even a grocery store for that matter ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lappa
Not all - only the ones dealing with COVID19 infectees are suited up. Many more nurses and doctors and other staff in hospitals, clinics and surgeries still have to treat other patients for other things. These patients would have about the same risk (maybe more) than students.Quote:
Besides that, pictures show them all dressed in protective suits and masks.
You don't think that's a bit harsh or acerbic? You'll probably choose to see one if you cop the virus, and no doubt be grateful to them for exposing themselves to your symptoms/illness. They didn't know this was coming either. It is not necessarily what they signed up for, but they will carry on caring for the sick.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lappa
Not forgetting too, that virtually ALL of the people that medical staff see will be infected, or think they might be. Teachers, OTOH, may or may not be exposed to a (probably much smaller) percentage of infected individuals, and apparently with the power to be able to send them home.
Ok, so because you've seen a picture(s) of this, that makes all of them completely safe? Like the now-dead Wuhan doctor who raised the initial alarm? (amongst gawd knows how many other medical professionals who will perish or suffer). Broad brush statements like that are "courageous". Or perhaps not fully thought through.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lappa
Have a thought for the medical staff in China who have had nervous breakdowns because they knew the situation was hopeless and lives would be lost (at that time, a few weeks ago). They will have PTSD - a life sentence - as a result. The memories of the dead people stacked up in corridors that they could have saved if the resources were available will haunt them forever.
And just btw - BobL was a teacher too. The comment doesn't have to be taken so personally, and I doubt very much that it was directed at you.
There are two nurses in my family and they chose that profession because that was what they wanted and both are damn good in their fields.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lappa
I also have a daughter in the Public Service working her butt off helping set up guidelines for aged care. She worked until 9 on Sunday night.
I hope you don't need their help but remember they are there for everyone - even those who don't appreciate them or their skills
Hear bloody hear Tom!
Sure, these are not ordinary timesQuote:
Originally Posted by BobL
The difference to me is the call for social isolation and not sharing. People have a choice to keep that 1.2m distance and I have noticed it happening in places such as my pharmacy, which it one you mentioned.
I, unfortunately, don’t have that luxury and neither do my students who have to share equipment and work in groups. This happens but I see management cancelling meetings, parliament running on a skeleton staff of MPs to “keep the distance”.
i care about myself and my family, my fellow teachers and my students.
Lappa is right.
The public servants abandon posts at a mere sniffle. Whole departments here are now working from home. Every other business has a choice to be online....
But teachers are being forced to work?
The probability they will catch this from the kids will be 100%.
Few interesting graphs from Coronavirus data reveals how COVID-19 is spreading in Australia - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
I'll let you draw your own conclusions.
Known destinations of COVID19 cases in Australia.
Attachment 470124
Attachment 470125
Looks like good case to lockdown at least NSW or at least Sydney?
Attachment 470126
SI never said I don’t appreciate their skills and caring. I had two major surgeries last year and the doctors and nurses where brilliant. All I said is I didn’t choose to be one. Is that a crime?Quote:
Originally Posted by Chesand
My problem is the inference from BobL that everyone is sharing the same risks which is not true. Doctors and nurses have the training and the equipment to work within this environment.
Other people can go all day with a 1.2m isolation zone, some can sit in the home all day and some ha e no choice but to work within a zone everyone says you shouldn’t
If I had a choice, I would still work and use an isolation zone, as recommended, but I can’t and neither can my students and neither can those other people forced into the same situation Does that make the risk for those who can’t work with an isolation zone the same as those who can or have the equipment to minimise risk?
Hard to see how it is any different to Supermarket etc staff or anybody else that has to deal with the general public.Quote:
Originally Posted by woodPixel
Consider the following: there are two cars in the workshop for repair, and they both need the same part, of which there is only one available, so one customer has to miss out (for a day or ten anyway, until another one comes in). One car belongs to a local mobile Nurse. The other belongs to the proprietor's sibling.
OTOH, a Triage Nurse in a smallish country town has one ventilator available, and has two people at death's door in front of her. One of them is her 75 year old mother. The other is some kid/young adult she doesn't know. She is under instruction to save the most likely to survive....even though another ventilator will arrive in the next day or ten.
Which professional has the easier choice? Which one will be mentally tortured?
I think you are comparing with wrong occupations, maybe compare yourself to people that have bout the same risk as you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lappa
Playing devils advocate here, but checkout assistants, the receptionists at GPs, Physiotherapists, bartender, waiter, fast food server, bus drivers, conductors, etc are in the same - maybe worse boat than you are.
I know that the authorities are against making your own hand sanitiser but its actually very easy.
Here is a WHO approved method WHO-recommended handrub formulations - WHO Guidelines on Hand Hygiene in Health Care - NCBI Bookshelf
Maybe run a class on making it and applying it to themselves with the students. Then get the students to lather their hands and the tool handles with it at the beginning and end of every class. Allocate students to wipe down key machine pieces/switches/handles with cloth impregnated with the sanitiser.
You also forgot to mention that they are political experts, finance experts, etc........:D
No, that is not quite what you said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lappa
The inference was that it was their bad luck that they are in the front line of a pandemic because of their chosen career.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lappa
Well, lucky for you. Reckon a med pro would love to have that option eh?Quote:
Originally Posted by Lappa
Maybe you should have read further and quoteD what I said further down,Quote:
Originally Posted by BobL
“If I had a choice, I would still work and use an isolation zone, as recommended, but I can’t and neither can my students and neither can those other people forced into the same situation Does that make the risk for those who can’t work with an isolation zone the same as those who can or have the equipment to minimise risk?”
You can clearly see that I never said it was only about teachers.
Disposable gloves and hand sanitiser have been ordered. It will be interesting to see how long it takes as the Govt, in their wisdom, closed QStores so everything comes from a common source that many use and supplies are low and limited.
I can’t force the students to bring their own.
The Govt is big on words and monetary handouts and useless when it comes to practical solutions.
I think Lappa's comments are somewhat taken to the extreme.
I think the government(s) all have a lot to answer for about their (lack of) response. If they were more harsh with the guidelines, and were more direct to industry, then there would be more sensible ways for employers to be able to say that a particular situation (eg classroom, office, particular client interactions) do or don't meet the minimum safe guidelines we've been given, and they would then not expose the employees and clients to unsafe situations. Many schools/unis are already doing the "don't come to campus" thing, and that's awesome, but if there were clear directions those places that hadn't yet moved to this level of response there would be no question about how they would do that.
But also there's nothing stopping institutions and organisations to be already readying their response to this and accelerating the transition. I suspect that Lappa's school are already trying to deal with this. My company, and those of many of my friends I've spoken to, have all said that their employers have said if they're not comfortable doing something then they should put themselves first and not attend - that could be as simple as calling a client instead of visiting (if they're even taking meetings as part of their own response) or as significant as not travelling to the office. Clearly this doesn't work for people who are "front line" in their business - can you imagine the discussions at Carbatec and H&F, let alone at even higher throughput places like supermarkets, where the exposure isn't as long but the numbers of contacts would be very high.
I think Nonna says it all :)
It's somewhat ridiculous to ban gatherings of (now) 100 people but allow metal sausages full of people to travel over the train lines in the city, with a few hundred different people each trip, meaning you're sitting with not just the 249 other people in your carriage, but the 3x other people they've been close to, and the 20x other people they've been around-but-not-close-to, and then you get to do that all again on the way home. (or if you were like my wife had, you had that 6x per day with 3 different rail segments per direction and somewhere between 3 and 4 hours in all that) So it's easy to see why any reduction in travel has to be beneficial.
vitriolic as usual and reading into it words that were never said or implied.Quote:
Originally Posted by FenceFurniture
Just following the Govt directive re the student.
Maybe turn up dressed like this?
Scomo would have to at least make it tax deductible in the current climate?
Attachment 470133