Attitudes to the road toll

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29th December 2017, 03:01 PM
Twisted Tenon

<style>  </style> I have come to this thread late, however re Roundabouts... I live on the Central Coast and around here all of our big roundabouts are being converted to lights, as it seems they are a major contributor to traffic jams. They were dangerous as well with many prangs over the years. The point of a round about is that it should be possible for four cars to enter at once. This is a rare feat indeed.

I have noticed that there are two sets of rules as far as roundabouts go. One is what the road rules actually say. According to The RMS website requirements of entering a roundabout.
“The roundabout sign means Slow Down, prepare to Give Way and if necessary stop to avoid a collision. So, as you're approaching a roundabout, you must get into the correct lane, indicate if turning, and give way to traffic already on the roundabout.
Enter the roundabout when there is a safe gap in the traffic.”

And the second rule is what actually happens. On approaching a roundabout a driver will look to see if anyone is on their left, and then speed up in an effort to block that person. This happens on all the smaller roundabouts here on the Coast and up around the Hunter/Newcastle areas too. It doesn’t matter if you have already entered the roundabout; the driver on your right expects that you will give way. In effect converting the approach to the roundabout as if it were a jousting tournament.

I am a retired Parole Officer and have spent a lot of time in courts and have often facilitated a drink driver program called the “Sober Driver Program”. It is worth noting that 80% of first offender drink drivers never return to Court, only about 20% return for the second offence. Of that 20% at least 5-10% will continue to be repeat offenders. The program I facilitated was aimed at that 20%. It was thought that if these people could be diverted from further offending then the cost and danger to the community will be greatly reduced.

The program is a joint venture between the RMS, NSW Police, Attorney Generals Dept & NSW Corrections. It was a three-day course held over three Saturdays. I could always tell if there was going to be any change in any of the participants by the second day after we looked at a real scenario of a young father who had stayed too long at a pub lunch and consequently crashed his van and killed a much respected member of the local community. A part of the exercise was to work out the cost to the community in dollars and of course the emotional cost to the first responders and witnesses. It will run into the millions. The knock on costs and the emotional trauma cannot be fully calculated.

I am pleased to say that so far the program has a high success rate.

TT
29th December 2017, 03:09 PM
BobL

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Parks

Mum and Dad and I include every one who has posted to this thread do not have the skills to teach safe driving . . . .?

How do you know that no one else that has posted in this thread has not undertaken Advanced driving instruction courses ?

I think that mums and dads, or any responsible driver, are able to teach young drivers, many life saving things about driving.

Teaching a new driver how to get out of a complex skid and getting them to remember it when it first comes up 5 years later is a 3rd order issue issue compared to other very basic things that kids can learn from a responsible driver.

The most important things that mums, dad, friends, relatives, peers can teach are NOT advanced driving skills but basic attitudes to driving, most of which involve very little skill.
eg It's OK to
- drive 5-10 k's over the limit
- drink and drive
- , no wait - it's fun! to drift through a roundabout.
- drive with your seatbelt just half draped across your body.
- use a mobile while driving
- cut into the path of a driver with a right of way - just make sure you accelerate fast enough to get out of the way.
- drift through stop signs
- fondle your girl friend or VV while driving.
ETC

Attitudes to these things are being picked by kids well before they have a learners permit.
29th December 2017, 05:37 PM
beefy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Parks

There are some extreme attitudes here none of which would change a thing. These threads stir up extreme thoughts without addressing the basics, always have and always will and everyone criticises all the rest of the driving world as "other drivers" infererring the critic is an expert driver and every other driver is a dill. There is one sobering thought in all this and that is there is no such thing as an accident, they all have a root cause and the so called "accident" did not happen by chance. The big thing is that governments treat the driving population as a source of revenue, criticise the drivers for causing accidents, plead with them to stop it all when the ultimate problem was thiers to begin with because they did not educate the driving population to begin with. Mum and Dad and I include every one who has posted to this thread do not have the skills to teach safe driving and all they do is pass on bad habits and poor skill sets. I taught advanced and competition driving when I was younger, was a professional driver for a large part of my working life and I still reckon my skills as a driver could be improved even after the eight week full time course I did back when I was a young man. In fact it occurs to me that the longer the mum and dad tuition requirements (L plates) go on for the greater the opportunity is for bad habits, poor skill building because the tutor never had the skills in the first place and has no right to be teaching any young driver anything. No one here has identified what the driver pulling out through the give way sign should have done initially but I will leave it to the experts to tell us. I stopped posting here as I could see what way things were going and I will stop again as I have no desire to get caught up in the "punishment is the only answer" argument. Who sets the parameters for the punishment?

Chris, while I see some good points in what you say, do you really think EDUCATION is the root of many of the accidents here. No one here has to be a super dooper driving expert to realise that people actually are taught some correct stuff when they learn to drive, yet they choose to ignore it and blindly copy what many others are doing, despite it clearly being a pretty dumb driving technique to adopt. Or are people really so stupid they can't think for themselves a little.

In addition to better driver education, I think a large part of the problem is attitude and the lack of interest in being a better, less aggressive, and basically less of an as*%ole driver. Education is all well and good and I think it could be improved a lot, but we can't put aside the attitude problem that clearly exists on our roads.

I think what we also need is an injection of fear, with drivers knowing the cops are out there in force, in plain cars, looking for generally chaotic and aggressive driving. If many drivers are going to behave like maniacs, that's exactly how they need to be dealt with. People like that won't give a toss about being educated, that will just be an inconvenience for them.

For the rest who would like to be good drivers, education would be great.
29th December 2017, 06:00 PM
doug3030

Quote:

Originally Posted by beefy

I think what we also need is an injection of fear, with drivers knowing the cops are out there in force, in plain cars, looking for generally chaotic and aggressive driving. If many drivers are going to behave like maniacs, that's exactly how they need to be dealt with. People like that won't give a toss about being educated, that will just be an inconvenience for them.

Many years ago -when cops still patrolled the roads and drivers used to obey the rules and were more polite than they are now because of it - I had a friend who was a cop and patrolled in an unmarked vehicle. He said that whenever he had to pull someone over because they cut him off or failed to give right of way to him, they almost always used to say the same thing to him. "Sorry mate, I didn't know you were a cop!" Hes standard response was "So its alright to do that to anyone else, just not to cops, is that right?" Then he would write them a ticket. He said that the very few who said something like "Sorry, I didn't see you," were usually given a warning.

Police patrolling the roads is far more effective in behavior modification than speed or red light cameras. On the day you commit the offence you are blissfully unaware of the penalty and you get to your destination feeling good about yourself for saving so much time driving just a bit faster than you should and going through that light that might have just turned red. You get the fine three weeks later and it really means nothing. But if you get pulled over for speeding or running a light you have to sit there while they give you a lecture and write out the ticket and it slows you down and you lose time and you do not get to your destination feeling good about taking those chances and getting away with it - because you already know you didn't get away with it. Your passengers all know what happened and anyone you know who drove past will have seen you. Far more accountability to friends and family than a fine in the mail you don't have to tell anyone about.

The big problem is that the state governments are looking at the roads and the road rules as an income generating business. They have a business model of maximizing fines for minimum outlay and road safety is not even a consideration. Speed and red-light cameras are operated by businesses with a contract to the government. They are not even a police responsibility. the company that runs them is getting a commission from every fine they issue. If fines stopped people speeding then nobody would be speeding. If fines and suspensions stopped people drink driving nobody would be drink driving.
29th December 2017, 08:09 PM
swk

Topical article on todays ABC

SWK
29th December 2017, 10:00 PM
woodPixel

60 offences, now killed 3 and maimed another. Annabelle Falkholt dies after Boxing Day crash, actress sister Jessica Falkholt remains critical - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

Is my hard-line attitude too much?
29th December 2017, 10:14 PM
doug3030

Quote:

Originally Posted by woodPixel

60 offences, now killed 3 and maimed another.

At least he won't do it again.
30th December 2017, 07:31 AM
rob streeper

The fastest speeding tickets issued in Texas in 2016 - San Antonio Express-News
30th December 2017, 07:35 AM
DiRob

I don't think the mobile phone issue has been mentioned only have to look at the penalty . Accountability of politicians will never happen but should as stated.
30th December 2017, 11:20 AM
BobL

Quote:

Originally Posted by DiRob

I don't think the mobile phone issue has been mentioned only have to look at the penalty . Accountability of politicians will never happen but should as stated.

Mobiles have been mentioned 7 times in this thread.
31st December 2017, 02:39 PM
Twisted Tenon

Just to bring some perspective to this discussion, the NSW Center for Road Safety reported that Speeding, fatigue and alcohol are the three main causes of death and injury on our roads. In 2012 more people in NSW died in fatigue-related crashes than drink driving crashes and Speeding remains the greatest cause of death and injuries on our roads, contributing to about 40 per cent of road fatalities.

The National Drug Strategy 2010-2015 reported that : The cost to Australian society of alcohol, tobacco and other drug misuse ² in 2004–05 was estimated at $56.1 billion, including costs to the health and hospitals system, lost workplace productivity, road accidents and crime. Of this, tobacco accounted for $31.5 billion (56.2 per cent), alcohol accounted for $15.3 billion (27.3 per cent) and illegal drugs $8.2 billion (14.6 per cent).

Stats and more stats as at 28/12/17 NSW is at 389 road deaths which is ten more that last year and - Since the start of random breath testing in 1982, road deaths per 100,000 population have dropped from about 23 to 4.1 in 2014.

It is clear to me that there are many factors contributing to road deaths and that NSW Governments of both persuasions are actively promoting safer driving programs which are bearing fruit. Of course any death on the roads is one too many.

TT
1st January 2018, 09:11 PM
ian

Quote:

Originally Posted by woodPixel

60 offences, now killed 3 and maimed another. Annabelle Falkholt dies after Boxing Day crash, actress sister Jessica Falkholt remains critical - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

Is my hard-line attitude too much?

ask yourself the questions -- why has this information been released? is it to deflect attention from some other relevant information? what relevance does a "long criminal history" have in the matter?

and remember in NSW registration and licence cancellation are used as punishments for offences unrelated to person's competence as a vehicle operator.
1st January 2018, 09:28 PM
doug3030

Quote:

Originally Posted by ian

remember in NSW registration and licence cancellation are used as punishments for offences unrelated to person's competence as a vehicle operator.

Like speeding fines?
1st January 2018, 09:43 PM
Twisted Tenon

Quote:

Originally Posted by doug3030

Like speeding fines?

A person can amass a series of fines for say fare evasion, shoplifting or for assaultive behaviour as well as for speeding. They fall behind in their payments and State Debt Recovery will have their lisence suspended. They will send a notification out to the last known address but if the person has moved or the letter gets lost the first they know about it is when they are pulled over by the police. Some people know they have been suspended but take the risk to drive because they need the work. As Ian says people can lose their lisence for reasons other than traffic infringments.
TT
1st January 2018, 09:55 PM
doug3030

Quote:

Originally Posted by Twisted Tenon

As Ian says people can lose their lisence for reasons other than traffic infringments.

No he didn't. He said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by ian

for offences unrelated to person's competence as a vehicle operator.

Like speeding fines - which can have as much to do with your competence as a vehicle operator as fare evasion, shoplifting etc. You can get a speeding fine when driving safely and competently. All you have to do is cross an arbitrary boundary. In fact you don't even have to do that. You just have to be accused of doing it and not be able to prove your innocence.

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