Installing cooktop - do I need an electrician - and if so why?

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Originally Posted by Skew ChiDAMN!!

wipes down the benchtop with a damp rag and gets a nasty shock when they brush against the cooktop 'cos you mixed up earth & neutral.

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Not to nit pick but if you ever have more than a few volts between earth and neutral you have some serious problem with your house wiring.

Back to the deck, imagine kids are playing and the barrier breaks and one of the kids falls and become paraplegic... Just as bad no ?

What I'm getting at is that there seems to be all this hocus pocus don't touch or you will probably die around electricity (and plumbing to a point) when in fact it's not more dangerous than many other activities we just do without thinking.
Look at the sharp/dangerous (jointer, shaper comes to mind) woodworking tools we have in our sheds, a child could turn a power tool on cut a big chunk of flesh out and bleed to death.. It's a stretch but not impossible.

Now imagine if there was a powerful woodworking union, that lobbied the gvt so all woodworking equipment could only be installed/used in registered business presimses by qualified people...

Nic

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imagine kids are playing and the barrier breaks and one of the kids falls and become paraplegic

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People aren't allowed to build their own hand rails either - they are supposed to be built by a licensed builder or owner builder and subject to approval - there are standards that must be followed to ensure they are safe and the builder is liable for the result of any negligence.

Not to take anything away froim what Silent C said, the problem with electricity is that there's generally no warnings. You can't see or smell it. A badly built handrail or stairs will be noticeable as will a leaky sewer and you can smell a gas leak. A dodgy bit of wiring that makes your sink live (and you dead) won't be. I'm a chippy by trade and it would be in my best interests,financially if carpentry was controlled to the same degree that electrical work is but I don't see the need. I'm quite confident in my ability to work with it and have done some electrical work (under supervision) but there's no way that I would rate the risks as equal.

Mick

If something is wired incorrectly it won't become dangerous after a settling in period, it will be alive and kicking, literally, from day one.
If in any doubt about live appliances just grab one of those little neon screwdrivers and touch it, if it lights up, don't touch.
I am not condoning amateur wiring but an earth leakage device can certainly negate a lot of the problems too, if the power snaps off every time you touch something, it is surely time to stop touching, and call in a sparky.

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Originally Posted by journeyman Mick

Not to take anything away from what Silent C said, the problem with electricity is that there's generally no warnings.

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No warning I kind of agree, fuses blowing, breakers tripping, tingles when you touch apliances, brown outs are all signs, and you can measure the risk easily (using a volt meter) if you see a potential danger it won't hurt anyone as long as you don't touch it.

Just for the record I wouldn't think it's wise for anyone to do anything with mains electricity if they don't at least have a reliable voltmeter/multimeter and know how to use it.

Nic

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Originally Posted by nic

No warning I kind of agree, fuses blowing, breakers tripping, tingles when you touch apliances, brown outs are all signs, and you can measure the risk easily (using a volt meter) if you see a potential danger it won't hurt anyone as long as you don't touch it.

Just for the record I wouldn't think it's wise for anyone to do anything with mains electricity if they don't at least have a reliable voltmeter/multimeter and know how to use it.

Nic

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What exactly are you going to measure with a voltmeter Nic.
"If you see a potential danger it won't hurt anyone as long as you don't touch it" That's the whole point. You cannot see electricity.
Having a voltmeter does not make it ok to work on hard wired mains equipment.
And a stove wired through an isolating switch is still hard wired. Many new houses have stoves with high amperage plugs because the hard wired stoves were being stolen before the house was finished. Now the builder just plugs it in and hands over the keys.

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Originally Posted by NCArcher

That's the whole point. You cannot see electricity.

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Exactly, hence why you need at least one basic tool aka the voltmeter, without it how would you tell if there is any danger ?
Once you have switched off mains how will you know if it's really off ? (voltmeter will tell you)
If you wire-up your stove how would you know if the carcass isn't at 240 V potential ? (voltmeter again)
In fact I can't think of a single thing you can't do without one, with gas you have you nose, plumbing well.. you get wet.


Nic

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Originally Posted by silentC

People aren't allowed to build their own hand rails either - they are supposed to be built by a licensed builder or owner builder and subject to approval - there are standards that must be followed to ensure they are safe and the builder is liable for the result of any negligence.

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I take it Silent we are talking about wooden hand rails here?. Because it would be illegal to put up metal ones unless they are made by a certified welder:D.

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Originally Posted by nic

Exactly, hence why you need at least one basic tool aka the voltmeter, without it how would you tell if there is any danger ?
Once you have switched off mains how will you know if it's really off ? (voltmeter will tell you)
If you wire-up your stove how would you know if the carcass isn't at 240 V potential ? (voltmeter again)
In fact I can't think of a single thing you can't do without one, with gas you have you nose, plumbing well.. you get wet.


Nic

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Why not use a volt stick before using a volt or multimeter. If it lights up - when it shouldn't - then you can further investigate with the above mention equipment.

Btw, when would one use the 10A (not fused) connection on a multimeter instead of the fused one?.

Cheers
MH

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Originally Posted by Metal Head

I take it Silent we are talking about wooden hand rails here?. Because it would be illegal to put up metal ones unless they are made by a certified welder:D.

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We have pretty strict licensing of building trades in Qld, but builders and owner builders may weld on their own jobs and those licensed as steel fabricators obviously can weld on any job. However, the welding must meet the relevant standards, not that most building inspectors could tell.

Mick

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Originally Posted by journeyman Mick

We have pretty strict licensing of building trades in Qld, but builders and owner builders may weld on their own jobs and those licensed as steel fabricators obviously can weld on any job. However, the welding must meet the relevant standards, not that most building inspectors could tell.

Mick

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But why should builders be any different?. Poor welds could result in a structure failing that could result in many deaths. Thus only those who have the revelant welding certificates should be allowed to weld anything structure wise including hand rails. What is good enough for electricians should be god enough or other trades.

MH

A builder in Qld may carry out any work except those for which an occupational license is required:

HOWEVER, if you perform any building work within one of the following classes regardless of the value, you must hold the appropriate licence:

Plumbing and Drainage
Gasfitting
Building Design
Completed Residential Building Inspection
Termite Management - Chemical
Site Classifier
Fire Protection
Carrying out or undertaking to carry out building work includes:

directly or indirectly causing building work to be carried out;
providing advisory, administrative, management or supervisory services in relation to building work; or
entering into a contract or submitting a tender for building work or offering to carry out building work.


Them's the rules, I don't make them and I don't like them, but I try to abide by them.

Mick

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Originally Posted by nic

If you wire-up your stove how would you know if the carcass isn't at 240 V potential ? (voltmeter again)
Nic

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How exactly do you intend to test the carcass of your stove with your voltmeter?
I don't think you know what you are talking about and your advise is wrong and dangerous. Please call an electrician so that nobody gets hurt.

The voltstick type testers (non-contact) are a good initial indication if power is available but as metalhead said further investigation is required. They don't always light up and can be activated by static and RF.

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Originally Posted by NCArcher

How exactly do you intend to test the carcass of your stove with your voltmeter?
I don't think you know what you are talking about and your advise is wrong and dangerous. Please call an electrician so that nobody gets hurt.

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Nah you're right I'm ashamed you have blown my cover, I have no clue what I''m talking about. Close to 20 years zapping myself :o with electricity and I still don't have a clue about it, AC/DC is a rock group right ??

btw what advice did I give out ? Get a good multimeter and know how to use it ... Yeah right real dangerous...


Nic

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Originally Posted by Metal Head

Btw, when would one use the 10A (not fused) connection on a multimeter instead of the fused one?.

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10A is fused, that's the rating of the fuse. You're probably thinking of fused leads, which contain in the ends of the leads to prevent excessive current when testing.


i'm getting sick of all this elec bashing, we're not the only people in the world who make mistakes. I could go on all day about engineers, fitters, boilermakers, carpenters, mechanics, heck, anyone who have made mistakes.

I can go do a weekend course for first aid, but does that mean I can go play doctor and prescribe meds, and perform surgery? But I've done the course, so why not? yes, it is three wires, red black and green. "hang on, theres a white one, whats this blue one. hang on, they're all the same colour!" not so easy now. A week course won't tell you squat.

just a few quick respones to some posts, i'm not going back to find the original poster for each response;

yes, the regs are freely available, once you've paid for them. Anything you can find as a pdf will not be the regs. A 20 page pdf is not sufficient. To wire a house you'd need at least 3 different ASNZS standards.

yes, you can replace plugtops on appliances, you can't work on an installation. This includes off the grid systems over 50v [off the top of my head].

Yes, Australia has a high rate of electrical fatalities, but we also have a low population density. try getting a sparky in the middle of the outback. A huge proportion of these deaths are on farms where the wiring was DIY. A publication by Energysafe shows a huge rate of deaths from DIY work, as well as from truckies not looking up before they raise their buckets/tipper/thing.

If you are not experienced with the Australian wiring system, please refrain from describing how to install/repair a light or power circuit. It isn't as clear cut as it may seem, and if they need to ask for advice they'll probably have difficutly transferring info between the two systems.

And finally, to answer the original post [i think in seven pages I only saw two or three answers] no, you cannot wire up a stove if it is hardwired and yes it will need an isolating switch.