Attitudes to the road toll

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Originally Posted by doug3030

Maybe so if you take a narrow view of things from just what is available from the picture GJ, but "failure to give right of way " is just one of many potential contributing factors to that accident. How do we know for example that the car that left the school didn't come out when the road was clear and get caught behind other slow traffic only to get hit from behind by a speeding motorist who would have hit the car in front of them if they had not entered the road? Like I said, there's too much we do not know from just the picture so I will stick with my original answer and not make an ill informed accusation.

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The accident happened IN the intersection on a straight section of road (it's also flat, but that's not necessarily apparent from an aerial photo). Short of car 1 traveling at a physically impossible speed, there's no way car 2 would not have been able to see it.

Also, this intersection is NOT a roundabout, despite how it might appear, so we can scratch those arguments.

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Originally Posted by Sturdee

Whoever was first on the roundabout is not at fault (even if it came out of a private property) but the other is.

Road rules state that in entering a roundabout you must give way to cars on the roundabout which is different from the normal give way to the right on normal intersections.

Peter.

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There is no roundabout involved. The incident was passed the right turn onto the roundabout.

They had to give way to the right and also give way as they were entering a road off a private driveway.

BTW On a roundabout you can only have cars on your right so giveway to the right applies as normal.

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Originally Posted by Grumpy John

Okay Doug you make some good points, however in this case car #2 had no one either in front, or behind and there is a long stretch of clear road to the left. And they are leaving private property, they are NOT on public road.

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Aha... additional information was needed :rolleyes:

From Vicroads:

Entering or leaving the road Hide

You must give way to all vehicles and pedestrians when you enter or leave the road from a driveway or adjacent land.

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Originally Posted by elanjacobs

The accident happened IN the intersection on a straight section of road (it's also flat, but that's not necessarily apparent from an aerial photo). Short of car 1 traveling at a physically impossible speed, there's no way car 2 would not have been able to see it.

Also, this intersection is NOT a roundabout, despite how it might appear, so we can scratch those arguments.

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Do you live in the area EJ?

Sorry, from the photo showing the divided road and the centre turning island I presumed that it was a roundabout intersection. In that case car no 2 was in breach of the Road rules for failing to give way.

I don't believe that car no 2 was leaving a private driveway but a legally definition road. Same as shopping centres and fast food places carparks are public roads as RBT has often demonstrated.

Peter.

The school exit.

Attachment 426789

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Originally Posted by Grumpy John

The school exit.

Attachment 426789

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I'm surprised that there is not a feeder lane to allow traffic exiting the school to accelerate up to highway speed before having to merge into the traffic on the highway. Would that be a contributing factor?

That is no longer an exit from a private driveway but officially classed as a road by evidenced by the give way sign, road markings and directional arrows on the other side.

Okay, here are two newspaper articles about the crash.

Mother and teenage daughter killed in horrific Cranbourne East smash

Man fronts court over Cranbourne crash that killed mother, daughter

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Originally Posted by Sturdee

That is no longer an exit from a private driveway but officially classed as a road by evidenced by the give way sign, road markings and directional arrows on the other side.

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Fair point Peter, but an even stronger case for having to give way.

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Originally Posted by Grumpy John

We've gone a little off topic here, but that's okay. We're getting to the root cause of accidents, not necessarily road deaths. Most, if not all accidents are caused by drivers not paying attention, or being aware of their surroundings. IMHO, knowledge of road rules play a minor part in traffic accidents, attitude toward other road users plays a much larger part.

Have a look at this graphic from a recent newspaper article and tell me who you think was at fault. Try not look for reports of the accident, just give an opinion based on the graphic. I will post the link later.

Attachment 426781

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one of the Probable causative factors

the school entrance is "'protected" by a 40 km/h zone at regular school start and finish times. Driver exiting the school at 7:20 PM expected that traffic approaching from the right would slow to 40 km/h and only looked as far up the road as a vehicle travelling at 40 km/h would travel in around 5 seconds. At 40 km/h, 5 seconds is equivalent to 56 m -- not much further than the length of a 50 m swimming pool. At 100 km/h, 5 seconds equates to about 140 m.
This is a fairly common occurrence.

Ok GJ,

I am guessing that your point is that the mother who exited the school grounds failed to give way, resulting in the death of herself and her daughter, but the man in the commodore who was drunk, unlicensed and not in a fit mental state to drive will finish up paying for their error.

From the newspaper article I see that the driver No 1 has been charged with culpable driving causing death under the Crimes Act and not the standard road rules.

Twelve years ago I was part of a County court jury that dealt with a similar case involving speed, erratic driving and alcohol.

We found the driver guilty of the offences charged and the 6 days spent hearing the evidence and seeing the crime scene had a serious effect on me and this case brings back awkward memories.

Consequently I don't want to know more about this and am leaving the discussion.

Peter.

I've now had a good look at this site using Google maps and StreetView.

The sight distance to a vehicle approaching from the right is measured in the hundreds of metres. At 100 km/h a vehicle needs about 160 m to stop. This includes reaction time (up to 2 seconds) and assumes average surface friction and tire tread depth.

Even if the vehicle "at fault" was doing 160 km/h there is more than enough sight distance for a vehicle exiting the school to see it approaching unless
1. it was dark and the approaching vehicle was travelling without lights
2. the approaching vehicle was hidden by the setting sun.

I'll stay with my assessment that the exiting driver didn't look properly.


But the "at fault" driver was DUI so unless he has very good legal representation he will be found guilty because someone other than an "innocent" mum and daughter must be at fault.