Electrics & Plumbing - What Am I Allowed To Do?

As a plumber Ive had to do a restricted electrical just to be able to replace a baby 50L HWS, LEGALLY. Someone calls me up to replace an electric instantaneous HWS, I call a sparky first off, as they run on 3 phase power. I didnt even pull cables in my own house I got my sparky mate to do the whole lot, as is the same when he renovated his bathroom, he didnt touch anything concerned with water/drainage. This is not about sparkies and plumbers "protecting" their trade as some "handymen" (and I use the term loosely) think, its about safety, there is a reason why there is a code of practice, legal implications, rules and restrictions. It astounds me that people think they can do all this stuff and be 100% confident that theyre not going to blow theyre house up or burn it down to the ground and God forbid hurt or even kill a family member. Ive noticed that no-one here has asked about doing their own gas work, though people dont realise that water and power can cause just as much damage with the same devestating results. Example, my sister rented a house recently where the gas HWS had ???? itself. The owner, a "handyman" as a lot of investment property owners are, had replaced this HWS. She called me up saying she didnt think it looked "right". I get over there, he had put a 135L outdoor gas HWS inside in the laundry, un-flued, used a water easy hooker on the gas from the ball valve to the heater, and instead of a TPR valve screwed a hose cock in instead. Without going into details, a storage HWS has the potential to take out half a house under these conditions. And dont get me started on Bunnings..........................

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Originally Posted by mick101

As already posted...how does the 'do-it-yourselfer' know that things were correct in the first place....ive seen houses with reverse polarity.

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there are these great little plug in testers sold at Dick Smith stores that *anyone* can buy and test power points, 5 out of about 12 power points here tested as 'Unsafe' because of 'active / neutral' reversed. These appear to all be original power points (house built in about 1963)

I would not be surprised in similar testers were available for light sockets.

I've back for more pizza and a second question. Beer sadly ran out over the weekend and Dan Murphys felt too far away this evening. :((

I'm in Quakers Hill. Has anyone had a good experience, or can they recommend an electrician/company?

It's a bit of a minefield when you know no-one in the trade and no-one who has any recommendations for you. Any suggestions would be much appreciated. Otherwise I'll have to play russian roulette in a couple of weeks with the Yellow pages.

Also, should I buy my own sockets/switches and get the sparky to fit them? No doubt they could get them cheaper than me, but would they generally pass on this saving to you?

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Originally Posted by wonderplumb

This is not about sparkies and plumbers "protecting" their trade as some "handymen" (and I use the term loosely) think, its about safety, there is a reason why there is a code of practice, legal implications, rules and restrictions. It astounds me that people think they can do all this stuff and be 100% confident that theyre not going to blow theyre house up or burn it down to the ground and God forbid hurt or even kill a family member.

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It could be worth your while reading up on some statistics on electrical safety and compare countries that allow people to do their own wiring with Australia. See if you can find some statistics to support your proposition that it is safety.

Also, there are people who are very knowledgeable in electrical matters (not just "handymen") who cannot obtain a wiring licence without having to do a four year apprenticeship.

Closed shop - yep.

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Originally Posted by zeroseven

Also, should I buy my own sockets/switches and get the sparky to fit them? No doubt they could get them cheaper than me, but would they generally pass on this saving to you?

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It won't make any difference.
Sure, tradies can & do get a better price on hardware, 20 to 30% and maybe more than that (for the big players). Do they pass this saving onto you - NO WAY.

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Originally Posted by wonderplumb

It astounds me that people think they can do all this stuff and be 100% confident that theyre not going to blow theyre house up or burn it down ..................

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Well I suppose you either do or don't know what you're doing. Problem is, when you don't know, then often you don't know that you don't know, if you know what I mean. When you do know what you're doing, this often means that you know what you can get away with, whether the work done is good enough or not. So the tradesman may not do the A1 job because he knows there is no need to. The DIYer with less experience will often do the A1 job.

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Originally Posted by wonderplumb

I didnt even pull cables in my own house I got my sparky mate to do the whole lot, as is the same when he renovated his bathroom, he didnt touch anything concerned with water/drainage.

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If we all had a sparky mate, why would any of us do our own electrical or plumbing work?

The fact is that because you can only get a qualification to do these trades by doing an apprenticeship, and there are not enough people willing to be paid less than $200 a week to start an apprenticeship, the shortage means that most of the qualified guys are extremely busy. Supply and demand then drives the price up. Tradies then can pick and choose which jobs they do. People are then forced to make a choice whether they do without, re-mortgage the house to pay the tradesman, or take the risk and do it themselves.
If, like N.Z., the regulations were changed to allow people to do minor electrical work themselves, then the demand for electricians would decrease but I doubt the work would drop off much as they'd still have the work that pays the most such as commercial work and new home installations as well as the final sign-offs on D.I.Y. home owners work.

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It astounds me that people think they can do all this stuff and be 100% confident that theyre not going to blow theyre house up or burn it down to the ground and God forbid hurt or even kill a family member.

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Despite the fact it's illegal, If the job is done to the proper specifications and regulations, what's the difference between a qualified and non-qualified person performing the work?

If we're going to argue about putting people in danger, then why can non-qualified people build their own houses, change the brake pads in their vehicles and manufacture their own trailers capable of carrying 4500kg and being towed at 100km/h?

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Example, my sister rented a house recently where the gas HWS had ???? itself. The owner, a "handyman" as a lot of investment property owners are, had replaced this HWS. She called me up saying she didnt think it looked "right". I get over there, he had put a 135L outdoor gas HWS inside in the laundry, un-flued, used a water easy hooker on the gas from the ball valve to the heater, and instead of a TPR valve screwed a hose cock in instead.

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I do agree that there's no excuse for performing sub-standard work whether you're qualified or not. Maybe the good old australian, "She'll be right, mate." could have something to do with it. Maybe he couldn't get a plumber to turn up? Maybe he was a tight-??????

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Originally Posted by Terrian

I would not be surprised in similar testers were available for light sockets.

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I rest my case.

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Originally Posted by mick101

I rest my case.

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Yeah, I'll pay that one...:doh:


But on the other hand, if you don't know and don't ask, you don't learn. It doesn't mean you're going to botch it up once you do learn, which is what some qualified's are suggesting us un-qualified's will do.

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If the job is done to the proper specifications and regulations, what's the difference between a qualified and non-qualified person performing the work?

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The difference is that the work done by the qualified person has been done under license, which carries with it two assumptions: 1) that the work was done by someone who has completed a trade qualification and therefore should know what they are doing and the implications of doing it wrong; and 2) that if the work is not up to scratch, the licensee will have to come back and fix it at risk of losing his license if he doesn't.

This is only really significant in a commercial situation, or is it? What if you buy a house from a DIYer with no idea and it is full of dodgy wiring? You have a choice to either fix it up at your own expense or live with it. You're very unlikely to get the vendor to fix it, I suppose you could take it to court, but you just wouldn't have the same legal grounding as you would if you took on a tradesman who has done a dodgy.

Here's another thing: If I have a sparky do work on my new extension or owner-built house, he has to provide warranty on it. If I sell the house in the mean time, that warranty passes on to the new owner. If I do the wiring myself and something goes wrong after selling it, I have to fix it - the new owner gets up to 7 years warranty on it. You have to provide the new owner with warranty insurance. What that means is that if there's an electrical fault, they make a claim, the insurance company sends out an assessor, he finds that the fault was due to poor workmanship, they pay a sparky to fix it and then send you the bill. If you don't pay it, they take you to court. Very messy.

I suppose if you intend to live in your house until you die, that's not going to be a problem. As long as it doesn't burn down in the meantime with you in it.

Just a bit on the statistics of death by electrocution.
The figures quoted earlier here and elsewhere on the web include deaths by all forms of electrocution. i.e. kids sticking a knife into a power point or toaster. Yes an RCD will shut the power off within 30msecs but not all houses have the RCD fitted by a qualified electrician or even have an ELCB device.
Figures also include people who are electrocuted by driving their yacht into high voltage lines or Linesmen who are electrocuted while working on HV equipment and cables. People who are electrocuted when walking through a puddle while holding a microphone.
I think you will find that a number of deaths each year are qualified electricians, who become complacent and don't give electricity as much respect as they should.
I know this because i get the various trade journals which list all these deaths and the outcomes of the resultant investigations.

Just trying to say that the statistics don't prove much of anything with regard to regulation of electrical work.

I'll aslo add that these investigations are carried out by the Office of the Chief Electrical Inspector or the Office of Fair Trading in conjunction with police.
If negligence is proven the person responsible (person who did the wiring, authorised or not) is subject to fines over $100k and/or jail terms.
You need to decide if it's worth the risk.
I'm qualified and I have insurance.

Would anyone one here hire a spark that came to the door & said he has very limited experience....no electrical lic.....isnt sure of the rules...has no copy of the rule book...very few tools & the ones he has he isnt sure of their function or reliability ??

Would you really let him work on your house's electricals ??

So why would you consider yourselves doing it if you are not a qualified spark ? Is the life of a family member worth this for the odd job about the place ? You yourselves say that your not intending to go contracting...just putting in a power point right.

Honestly im finished here. Guys its your children/house/decision.

Personally I just think get a Sparky in and suffer the cost. Mind you I like to look after donkey work like stringing wires through and so on. Let him concentrate on the electrical.

Studley

As a licenced electrician i feel that i must comment as there seems to be a fair amount of bravado with forum members about doing their own electrical.
Do the DIY,s know the rules and understand the risks of doing it themselves?
How do they know that it was wired correctly in the first place?
How do they know that the circuit is dead before they work on it?(Leaving the light on and pulling the fuse and watching the light go out doesn't guarantee that everything is dead.)
Do they have the appropriate test equipment to test for dead?
Do they have appropriate test equipment to test the insulation resistance and do they know what the minimum insulation resistance is and how to test for it?
Do they know what the maximum earth resistance is and how to test for it?
Do they know what the maximum number of points allowable on a particular circuit is and the correct cable size for the protection?
Do they know about correct earthing requirements?
If the DIY'er answers no to any of these questions (and dozens more) then they probably shouldn't be doing the job themselves as a licensed electrician should know the answer and should not only make sure that the item that he is working on is installed correctly but also that the rest of the circuit is safe and up to standards. Remember that just because the power point works or the light switches on does not mean that the job has been done safely and up to standards.
I am only posting this as i have seen quite a few DIY jobs that have been extremely dangerous.
My two bobs worth.

Everything above X2 cept for tis plumbing also.