Presumption Of Innocence

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Originally Posted by Gra

Secrecy harms the process

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How :? :)

Makes it harder for the busy bodies :doh:

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Originally Posted by Sebastiaan56

Unfortunately the British experience appears to be that terrorists have been home grown. Once again, how do you divine an intention? Im not up to that one....

Sebastiaan

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Acts in preparation. Police V Edwards Case Law.

About a man, a horse, a box and a distinct lack of pants .......I kid you not :p

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Originally Posted by dazzler

How :? :)

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If people dont trust the process they wont follow the process, and secrecy breeds distrust and can also breed fear

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Originally Posted by dazzler

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Hey MH

Do you let him leave?. What if he was part of a cell here? Are there other members ready to attack here? Has he left a device (car bomb?) here that is ready to go?.

Of course you would have to interview him (as they did) if he was suspected of being part of a terrorist cell:rolleyes:. However, it became obviously apparent to us anti-Howard supporters that this was a botched job as time went by. Like the main evidence against him was it was supposedly his sim card that would be used to detinate the bomb. But it wasn't and they (the investigators) knew of that early in the peace but of course they didn't want to look stupid in their case so they spent time tying to discredit the poor guy. Do you remember that one of the ivestigators wrote details on some paper but tried to hang it on the poor doctor:((.

Hard questions. How would you deal with it. (MH leaves it to others but whines on the way :rolleyes:). Poor old Dazzler (who comes across as being a racist) is disappointed that his beloved Howard will be on his way after the next election. However, I wouldn't be surprised if he tried to pass the poison chalice over to Costello as soon as it gets through his thick head that it will lose in a landslide. Remember Dazzler as a citizen of this country I have equall as yours. You were just fortunate to have been born here.

Let him go and hope nothing happens. Let india deal with it?. Please show the text where I said he "should not have been interviewed".

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Sorry MH just found this, didnt mean to seem rude. For some reason your post wouldnt quote properly so I have block copied it. Your qoute is above.

How do you interview him :? . He is about to get on a plane to india. There is no right to interview him, he is free to leave, unless he is either arrested or detained. There was nothing about his sim card being used or planned to be used to detonate a car bomb. There was no main evidence. Just circumstantial evidence that he was questioned about.
The investigator made a mistake during the interview by referring to a photocopy of a page of his notebook that had writing on it. The dr stated it wasnt his so the D/S went and checked, came back and corrected it on tape.

FYI, frequently an interviewer will place an exhibit (say the notebook) in a sealed bag to show the suspect, and hand a photocopy of the document in question to the suspect so they can refer to it. They will often write on the police copy questions and lines of inquiry to prompt them during a lengthy interview.

Now you have to read this bit slowly, cause its important. The charges were dropped because it is not clear whether or not the alleged suspects in the UK belonged to a declared terrorist group. If the group is linked to a declared terrorist group then they will most probably reinstate the charge. It had nothing to do with the location the sim was found. This is why the charge was "recklessly" which removes the intent componant of the higher charge. IMO it would be a long bow to get up on anyway. Just another example of the media misreporting the facts.


Now to the more serious bits;


1. Please explain how I come across as racist, what comment can you point to that is racist or implies racism on my part?


1a. Perhaps others on the board can point to it so that I can apoligise to everyone. :)


2. Where have I suggested or intimated that I love Howard. What comment can you point to that shows this?


3. How does the fact that I was born here have any bearing on what I have said?


4. Once again, if you were the investigator, what would you have done at the airport given the concerns that had been raised about him? Concerns great enough for a pass alert to have been granted under the conditions explained earlier.

cheers


dazzler (who grew up being called "wogboy" in a small country town by our indigenous people :rolleyes: )

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Here Metal Head, Metal Head, Metal Head.


Here Metal Head.


Where is he :? .

Here Metal Head:)

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Originally Posted by Sturdee

But society considers some crimes and threats to its wellbeing greater than others. Hence those crimes and threats are treated different from others.

and,

Similarly with terrorrism. The laws, by its very nature, need to be more restrictive to fight that crime against our society. Sometimes we get it wrong but hopefully most of the time we get it right.

However there may be a need for appointing a permanent royal commissioner to review and oversee the fight against terrorrism with regular reports direct to parliament.


Peter.

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Hi Peter/Interested parties,

I thought I would apply a risk assessment of the type beloved by corporate Risk Management types. This one is good enough http://www.energyinst.org.uk/heartsa...s/docs/ram.pdf Probability is very low, severity is major to high with multiple injuries. Important point is that the threat is not extreme. Now Im sure that this is not how the military would approach it as the injuries would be civilian, but in a former corporate life with risk management responsibilities I would have had a ton of trouble if there was more than planning at a senior level undertaken. ie we wouldnt have trained the workforce in specifics of the plan, only management and various site security teams. The bulk of the response would be left to Corporate Communications and the Emergency Services.

Looks a bit like the real planning Ive seen by the Govt. Seems quite reasonable and logical. The issue is the spin, unfortunately the whole lot is now politicised and subject to the usual law and order bidding wars. The way we approach prosecution (the subject of the thread) is the casualty of these bidding wars.

Agree about a Commissioner, though he would need to have a lot of patience and wisdom. If of course there ever was an attack, the Govt would have neatly passed the buck, sounding safer all the time isnt it :wink:, to be a pollie that is....

Sebastiaan

Fear is a funny thing.

There was a coronersl report/study came out a few years ago from the US on risk of death or causes of death in the US.

The one I chuckled at was the "abducted and murdered child" occurances, which the western media is obsessed with, was six times less likely to occur than being struck by lightning :oo: .

"Today on Oprah, LIGHTNING.....THE HIDDEN KILLER......IS YOUR CHILD SAFE..."

:p

On that, more Americans have drowned in the bath than have been killed by terrorists.

Will someone write to Oprah about that?

P
:D

So what d'ya think? Is the Howard government manipulating the xenophobia and prejudice of the average person to further the party's political agenda? Or are they simply xenophobic and prejudiced themselves? Or both?

Please explain?

Are they pretending that terrorism is a bigger threat than it seems to be because they want us to be afraid, and therefore easier to control, or because they are actually afraid of terrorists?

How's that Pauline? :wink:

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Originally Posted by silentC

Are they pretending that terrorism is a bigger threat than it seems to be because they want us to be afraid, and therefore easier to control, or because they are actually afraid of terrorists?

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Yes.....

Is there a threat of terrorism to australia?.

Well there is one man in gaol on a 21 year stretch for planning such an act.

There are two bunches of men on remand in Sydney or Melbourne of which the courts agree there is a case to be heard.

There is a female on remand in sydney on similar charges where the courts have determined there is a case to be heard.

There are some on remand in Melbourne for supporting the Tamil Tigers which is a terrorist group.

So yes there is a threat. The threat is small statistically.

The "war on terror" is politically driven. However I dont think these laws are politically driven but made in response to a perception (rightly or wrongly) that there is a need to detain someone in "special" circumstances.

Would still love somone to offer an alternative to our recent dr friends situation. :roll:

cheers


dazzler

Now wheres Metal Head....here metal head:p

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Originally Posted by silentC

Are they pretending that terrorism is a bigger threat than it seems to be because they want us to be afraid, and therefore easier to control, or because they are actually afraid of terrorists?

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No. They understand that the press is a bigger threat than terrorism, and they are afraid of the press.

Put simply, they get better press from what they are doing rather than taking the risk that I may have concealed a burning car in my belt when last I flew. That's the only reason I can think of for them wanting to xray it.

I read a thesis a year or two ago, written by a PhD person somewhere in the US, as part of his Doctorate in studying the impact of things, which put forward the proposition that INCITING FEAR OF TERRORISM should be illegal.

The thesis argued that many of the "window dressing" security measures, (when was the last time a nail file or even a pocket knife was used in a plane hijacking?) did nothing other than to incite fear of terrorism, giving terrorists a small victory in their campaign.

If you want to see real terror at work, check out the stats on the number of American's killed by law enforcement officers, compared to terrorists!

Cheers,

P (still plugging censorship!)
:D

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Originally Posted by bitingmidge

If you want to see real terror at work, check out the stats on the number of American's killed by law enforcement officers, compared to terrorists!

Cheers,

P (still plugging censorship!)
:D

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Yes, but they were all bad :D :p .

I think the governments love Terrorism as it is a way of controlling the population, gives the people something to hate and keeps governments in power as it did with our current government.

Did anyone see the SBS (BBC) series the Power of Nightmares?

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Originally Posted by Wikipedia

The Power of Nightmares, subtitled The Rise of the Politics of Fear, is a BBC documentary film series, written and produced by Adam Curtis. The series consists of three one-hour films, consisting mostly of a montage of archive footage with Curtis's narration, which were first broadcast in the United Kingdom in late 2004 and have been subsequently aired in multiple countries and shown in several film festivals, including the 2005 Cannes Film Festival.
The films compare the rise of the American Neo-Conservative movement and the radical Islamist movement, making comparisons on their origins and suggesting a strong connection between the two. More controversially, it argues that the threat of radical Islamism as a massive, sinister organised force of destruction, specifically in the form of al-Qaeda, is in fact a myth perpetrated by politicians in many countries — and particularly American Neo-Conservatives — in an attempt to unite and inspire their people following the failure of earlier, more utopian ideologies.
The Power of Nightmares has been praised by film critics in both Britain and the United States. Its message and content have also been the subject of various critiques and criticisms from conservatives and progressives.

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Link

You can view it on YouTube.

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Originally Posted by silentC

How's that Pauline? :wink:

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Condescension almost deserving of a reddie :D:oo::D

I'm not xenophobic, I'm Xenaphobic. Its a condition which leads me to get irate in the face of awful telly shows.

Shouldn't xenophones be discussed in the Musical Instrument forum?

P
:?

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Originally Posted by bitingmidge

Shouldn't xenophones be discussed in the Musical Instrument forum?

P
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He's a politician in SA!!!:D

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Shouldn't xenophones be discussed in the Musical Instrument forum?

P
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Yes but I wish you wouldn't harp on about it.


:D

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Originally Posted by Grunt

Yes but I wish you wouldn't harp on about it.


:D

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You playing a differnt tune now??:q

found this and it seemed apropriate.

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Originally Posted by Gra

found this and it seemed apropriate.

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:D

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Is there a threat of terrorism to australia?

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I don't think anyone really doubts that, do they? Given all the stuff that has gone on elsewhere in the world, why would we think we are any 'safer' from it here?

It's more a question of whether the response is proportional to the risk. When you think about the number of situations in which the police's 'hands are tied' why this particular cause to 'free them up'? What other situations are there in which someone can be taken into custody on suspicion that they intend to commit a crime, or might know someone who intends to commit a crime?

Well then the system would just be completely overwhelmed. Just think, they could abandon sniffer dogs outsides raves and just arrest everyone on suspicion of wanting to take expensive waste of money ecstasy

One mans terrorist is aonther ones freedom fighter:oo:

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Originally Posted by dazzler

The "war on terror" is politically driven. However I dont think these laws are politically driven but made in response to a perception (rightly or wrongly) that there is a need to detain someone in "special" circumstances.

Would still love somone to offer an alternative to our recent dr friends situation.

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Hi Dazzler,

Metal Head may have moved on, I havent. Some coments on our Dr's situation. The moment the media got hold of it, well, we know what happens with perceptions of innocence etc. Big mistake that one, makes it difficult for those of us who are not in possession of all the facts, including the media. But the alternative, called rendition, is much worse. There has been a book published by one of the lawyers defending Guantanamo suspects, here is how I found out about it. http://www.abc.net.au/rn/latenightli...07/1997840.htm Even Pinochet or Stalin would have been proud of the place.

Perhaps another way it could have been handled. Get a court order based on reasonable suspicion to conduct the monitoring. Monitor every breath the guy makes. Corroborate the evidence from Scotland Yard while watching him. He had a one way ticket to India, big deal, one way is often the cheapest way to fly. He had a good job in Aus and probably would have returned, tell the Indian authorities and send a spy after him. Then, when there is proof, throw the book at him. Holding him to gather the information to prosecute must put insane pressure on those gathering the evidence, particularly if they have been indoctrinated the way those poor military geeks at Guantanamo have. The DPP dropped it, how profoundly embarrasing for the whole system.

Now, would you trust Indian military?, I dunno either, having spent some time there, I got the impression that most people were for sale.

I think and independent process is needed before the arrest. The whole thing smells of knee jerk by well meaning professionals.

My concern has been and remains the freedoms that I have enjoyed. The freedom to argue about this stuff, probe and come to a considered opinion (try this converstion on a Chinese website). The presumption that I am innocent in the face of a paranoid political environment. The freedom to ask radical Muslims (or any radical other for that matter) to explain their views without being painted as an associate. I think we have it good, I want to keep it that way,

My two bob's (again)

Sebastiaan

Hi Sebastian

I agree with that. Truly Ruly :D .

Except the worry that his departure (rapid and maybe legit) could be because he has completed his acts in preparation and is trying to get out before it occurs. A long bow to draw of course.

The big difference that I had found as an investigator was the change in focus from "who did what" to "What if?". A major shift in thinking from response to proactive.

Anyways I have enjoyed the debate and thankful we can have it in this great country. What was disappointing was being slagged that I sounded like a racist and was a "howard lover" when anyone who has followed the threads over the past couple of years, particularly in orange room, would be aware of my negative views on Iraq and the stupidly named "war on Terror" :rolleyes: :(( .

cheers

dazzler

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Originally Posted by dazzler

What was disappointing was being slagged that I sounded like a racist and was a "howard lover"

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and being a howard lover is the unkindest cut of all!

Don't worry Dazzler, you're with 46% of the population, and probably come election time, 50.000001%.

Of course now our Mr Beattie's distracted him, who knows what the terrorists are up to!

:D :D :D
P

I love John Howard too. He was great in Sea Change!