CoronaVirus ==> Empty Shelves

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Originally Posted by Kuffy

Why not just report the news?

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Originally Posted by Kuffy

I don't favour any particular publication or broadcast. I read and listen to many from both sides.

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The bad plus the good = the whole story I hope.

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Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

Not if the good (or the bad) is false and propagandist, to serve the best interests of the media owner. The function of the Fourth Estate is to report facts. Further analysis and opinion pieces should be based on the facts too.

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I find fact checking invaluable .... FactCheck.org - A Project of The Annenberg Public Policy Center ... and, there are many other fact checking outfits listed here. Some very obvious county omissions from that list.

Just calling something fake news of course doesn't make it so and that can also be fact checked.

The last thing we need is for the media to just retweet whatever comes out of an administration or executive. That would definitely make them muppets (puppets) that fail to fulfill one of the main roles of the media in a democracy; holding those in government to account.

Last night I watched a movie on the Stasi in East Germany at its zenith. The job of the media was to report the news and the Stasi told them what was and wasn't news. Control of the media is the first item in the playbook of authoritarian governments on both the far right and the left, and every other form of dictatorship in between.

Press freedom and diversity within the press is essential for a healthy democracy.

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Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

Prof Paul Kelly (Dep CMO) is not ruling out making downloading their tracking app compulsory. ....

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I don't have a mobile. Will he buy me one?

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My partner has lived through the various Police State/Military Juntas of Argentina in the 70s and 80s, and understandably she is not at all happy about it.

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Have a Chilean friend who says the Allende government used ID cards to track families.

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Some questions that I can think of:

• What guarantee do we have that the data will not be used for anything else? Certainly mobile phone movements can currently be traced, but that requires a warrant or court order AFAIK.
• What guarantee do we have that this is not the thin end of the surveillance wedge, and that the surveilling will not continue after the pandemic crisis is finished because Mr Potato Head can now track us all?
• What guarantee do we have that this golden opportunity to turn it into an Australia Card on steroids will not be taken?
• Do they really need that data, given that Australia is more or less leading the western world in controlling the virus? .....

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Aren't Google, Amazon, Chairman Xi and an entire industry already doing that?

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Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

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AND they were allowed to keep the documents they seized illegally - how the bloody hell does THAT work? It's akin to "You have been found guilty of stealing the jewels, but you can keep them".

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That is a surprisingly common occurence with white collar crime. How often has someone convicted of market offences (eg insider trading) been forced to hand over the loot.

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Originally Posted by doug3030

Ah yes. ASD, or DSD as it was known when I spent a few years working there and in some of the other nearby buildings.
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So you worked in a call centre?

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Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

If the app was able to be deleted after the pandemic was finished that would be different and I'd be ok with helping, but I wonder if it will be like the ATO being made as a payee in bank accounts - can't be deleted.

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That's what the govt said through Stuart Roberts (If he knows what he's saying). Data is stored locally until you say you're infected, in which case the history of the last 21 days is uploaded to a server, and is used to warn others. It's also open source. It looks OK at the moment.

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Originally Posted by justonething

Stuart Roberts (If he knows what he's saying).

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I think there might be a contradiction there. He is amongst the dopiest ever.

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Originally Posted by GraemeCook

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Originally Posted by doug3030

Ah yes. ASD, or DSD as it was known when I spent a few years working there and in some of the other nearby buildings.

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So you worked in a call centre?

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No, I spent my 20 year and two day Army Career working as an Intelligence Analyst, among other things.

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Originally Posted by GraemeCook

I don't have a mobile. Will he buy me one?

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Graeme

I'm in the same boat. Ohhhh...errr. I could probably have phrased that better.

Regards
Paul

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Originally Posted by NeilS

Last night I watched a movie on the Stasi in East Germany at its zenith. The job of the media was to report the news and the Stasi told them what was and wasn't news. Control of the media is the first item in the playbook of authoritarian governments on both the far right and the left, and every other form of dictatorship in between.

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Neil

You may recall the control of the media in Orwell's 1984. It absolutely dictated what the news was to the point it also re-wrote history on a daily basis to suit the thinking of the day. Extreme? Yes.

Clearly there are places around the world where this already happens or has happened. I worked with a young Chinese man who had been at university during the Tiananmen Square "incident." He was told nobody was injured or killed there.

The question remains as to what level of police state we are comfortable with and I completely accept we are already there in many respects. Satellites, credit cards, banking, Internet, Social messaging, drivers licence, traffic cameras, CCTV. Maybe even the Woodwork Forums?

:)

Regards
Paul

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Originally Posted by Bushmiller

Neil

You may recall the control of the media in Orwell's 1984. It absolutely dictated what the news was to the point it also re-wrote history on a daily basis to suit the thinking of the day. Extreme? Yes.

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Yes, Paul, and also Animal Farm. The dictum "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others." is one of the most chilling quotes that comes to mind from that one.

Not that I think that we are under any immediate threat of totalitarianism here, or in any other country with a long history of democracy, but we need to be constantly vigilant for any early signs of its resurgence. If we need a reminder, it is only just under 90 years since the Reichstag fire.

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Originally Posted by NeilS

Not that I think that we are under any immediate threat of totalitarianism here, or in any other country with a long history of democracy, but we need to be constantly vigilant for any early signs of its resurgence.

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We do indeed have to be vigilant. One only has to listen to Trump's rumblings about a 25 year Trump Dynasty (or whatever the period he mentioned) a few months ago, followed by yesterday encouraging protesters to disobey State directions after saying 24 hours earlier that the States could do what they need in terms of reopening...after saying 24 hours before that that the States would be bent to his rule. A day or two before that he was saying that his power is absolute.

If that isn't rattling towards the far right.....

Man I'm glad I live in Australia!

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Originally Posted by doug3030

Ah yes. ASD, or DSD as it was known when I spent a few years working there and in some of the other nearby buildings.

Interesting times. :rolleyes:

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Hehe. DSD. I didn't think anyone would know what I was talking about, so I modernised it.

Yeah. Wow. JHC did I get into some strife! :) :)

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Originally Posted by GraemeCook

So you worked in a call centre?

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Gardener. Just a lowly gardener. Or the canteen, just a know-nothing grunt.

Everyone works in the canteen. Except for some cleaners.

:)

From the Guardian blog:
Coronavirus live news: US accused of 'dereliction of duty' as deaths in Spain top 20,000 | World news | The Guardian

"Trump, who has clashed with Democratic governors over how soon to reopen the US economy, tweeted his support on Friday, in an unprecedented endorsement of civil disobedience by a sitting president."


What a place.

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Originally Posted by Kuffy

why are they counteracting the Trump mouthpiece? Why not just report the news?

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They are reporting the news. The news is that DT is constantly making untrue statements (no one lies anymore apparently. They just "mis-speak") and there is a need to correct his statements/claims. The alternative is to allow his statements - which in many cases are provably untrue - to go unchallenged. If someone is constantly "mis-speaking" and therefore constantly needs correcting, then it takes on the appearance of a personal attack.
Pete

I live in a forest, I have a garden there where I grow my food. My family and I live in a home with screen doors.
It’s been a bad autumn and 1 million mosquitoes have invaded my garden, 10 of them carry malaria which may kill me if I am bitten.
I need to go to the garden daily for food. It was OK for the last few months while I had Aeroguard protection, but I’ve run out.
Now every time I go out for food, I get bitten by one mosquito and a further 10 follow me back into to the house. We kill 9 but one always bites one of the family.
We are safe from them if we stay in the house, but we will die from starvation.

This is Donald Trump's dilemma.
Can you help him?

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Originally Posted by woodhutt

If someone is constantly "mis-speaking" and therefore constantly needs correcting, then it takes on the appearance of a personal attack.

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Which is why Trump hates the press so passionately - they see through him and keep exposing him. In the Guardian blog, for example, they constantly correct the same lies, exaggerations and understatements. I have read some of the same corrections countless times, and whilst that can become tedious at times, it is necessary to counteract the lies every time they are spoken, to avoid the Goebbels Effect.


According to the Washington Post (via the Examiner) he has lied 16,241 times since taking office. Gawd knows what the number would be up to now because he has been absolutely on fire in the last 3 months.

Greg, I don't think anybody can help Donald Trump but I'm not sure he needs it yet. It's his constituents who are in trouble.

Substitute Ross River or Dengue fever for malaria in your case and you're close to the money. Bushman is the best mozzie and sandfly repellent out there with 80% diethyl toluamide (DEET) in their ointment.

mick

Can anyone imagine this scene in Australia? Simply because they are sick of the lockdown?

Attachment 471993
Jeff Kowalsky/Agence France-Presse — Getty Images

What's more, they are almost exclusively overweight middle-aged WHITE males with goatees. Not a woman in sight. I think there might be something in that for all of us.

At least one bloke has a pistol and another is toting an assault rifle! :o

I guess this is what they mean by a well regulated militia.

mick

There are nine of them carrying assault rifles that I can count, but there are no doubt more that can't be seen.

Looks like Trump has a new business venture,
'Rent-A-Redneck'

Pete

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Originally Posted by Glider

Substitute Ross River or Dengue fever

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A mate of mine who lives on the coast at Rockhampton has just had a bout of Dengue two weeks ago. He was talking to me with a dry cough and other symptoms that sounded a little like C19 so I urged him to consult a GP. Apparently the big giveaway to it being Dengue was a strong metallic taste in his mouth. One of the more attractive symptoms is....a blue Old Fella.....

He can't wear DEET, and the mozzies are in full cry 24 hours a day.

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Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

What's more, they are almost exclusively overweight middle-aged WHITE males with goatees. Not a woman in sight. I think there might be something in that for all of us.

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Make whatever you want from that Brett. Able-bodied white heterosexual males are unique in being the only group that have no lobby group standing up for them. The world seems to support quotas and lobby groups for:

Women
Genders/sexual preferences other than heterosexual (all 97 of them)
Disabled people
minority ethnic groups

Good to see a group that has nobody else lobbying for them standing up for themselves. :2tsup:

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Originally Posted by doug3030

Make whatever you want from that Brett. Able-bodied white heterosexual males are unique in being the only group that have no lobby group standing up for them. The world seems to support quotas and lobby groups for:
Women
Genders/sexual preferences other than heterosexual (all 97 of them)
Disabled people
minority ethnic groups
Good to see a group that has nobody else lobbying for them standing up for themselves. :2tsup:

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Humm . . . . cant let that one slide by . . . . . . given that able-bodied white heterosexual males (and are a world wide minority) already have 90+% of the power and wealth in the world, why do they need any more representation, perhaps what they need is less?

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Originally Posted by BobL

Humm . . . . cant let that one slide by . . . . . . given that able-bodied white heterosexual males (and are a world wide minority) already have 90+% of the power and wealth in the world, why do they need any more representation, perhaps what they need is less?

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Bob, is that 90+% figure really able-bodied white heterosexual males or just males?

Take out the men who are either gay, disabled or minority race and what is the figure?

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Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

Can anyone imagine this scene in Australia? Simply because they are sick of the lockdown?

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At first glance, I actually thought it was a bunch of blokes standing in front of Vic parliament house, so yeah I can imagine such a scene. And to be honest, I kind of expect it in Melbourne. You are correct though, they are all white. Thanks for noticing??????

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Originally Posted by doug3030

Bob, is that 90+% figure really able-bodied white heterosexual males or just males?

Take out the men who are either gay, disabled or minority race and what is the figure?

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That fact that disabled people are even included in this argument says it all for me and means I won't be responding any further to this.

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Originally Posted by BobL

That fact that disabled people are even included in this argument says it all for me and means I won't be responding any further to this.

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Well I didn't make up the categories, disability is included in the Victorian Equal Opportunity and Human Rights Commission.
Types of discrimination.

Crikey. A stark reminder of what I (don't) miss.

Next thing you know, Trolls will be looking for a support group.

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Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

Crikey. A stark reminder of what I (don't) miss.

Next thing you know, Trolls will be looking for a support group.

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But you seem to have all the support you need Brett.

My son along with a bunch of other folks with 3D printers has been cranking out hundred of face shield holders for medical staff although that seems to be coming to and end as more commercial medical PPE becomes available.

Following on from a story I saw on ABC 24 last night I sent my son the lead about these 3D printed "no touch door closer/openers" etc.
Within a couple of hours he found the dude on the internet got a copy of the file and started printing.
It turned out to be not that good a design but then at about 10am he found a bunch of other designs and printed a few out
The one shown below seems to be one of the better ones
These are held by the LHS hook with a pointing finger though the hole and the RHS hook is used to twist and pull open doors, push lift buttons etc.
There are heaps of different designs out there including some neat fold away designs that keep the touch hook inside a plastic cover.

Attachment 472005

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Originally Posted by GraemeCook

Aren't Google, Amazon, Chairman Xi and an entire industry already doing that?

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Yes. And don't forget Facebook, probably THE evil empire of the technology world, by a significant margin.

I find it astonishing and sad that there was so much opposition to the Australia Card - triggering a double dissolution - and yet a majority of people are paying thousands of dollars (via their smart phone) for the privilege of being tracked to a level that George Orwell would find hard to imagine.

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Originally Posted by Greg Ward

This is Donald Trump's dilemma.
Can you help him?

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Leave it to the adults would be my advice to DT.

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Originally Posted by RossM

I find it astonishing and sad that there was so much opposition to the Australia Card - triggering a double dissolution - and yet a majority of people are paying thousands of dollars (via their smart phone) for the privilege of being tracked to a level that George Orwell would find hard to imagine.

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:whs:

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Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

Can anyone imagine this scene in Australia? Simply because they are sick of the lockdown?

Attachment 471993
Jeff Kowalsky/Agence France-Presse — Getty Images

What's more, they are almost exclusively overweight middle-aged WHITE males with goatees. Not a woman in sight. I think there might be something in that for all of us.

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Are we getting a little distracted from the point. Even ignoring the public display of military weaponry (I am taking the word of you blokes, being more knowledgeable than me on firepower, who hardly knows the difference between a Glock 17 and an AWM lapua magnum sniper rifle) the blatant flaunting of their lockdown policy seems weird. My question being is there no need for a lockdown?

So I looked into the statistics for Michigan, a state of nearly 10 million people bordering the Great Lakes. I couldn't find the total cases for Michigan, but the total deaths were 2,212. The major county, Wayne, which includes Detroit, had 13,223 cases and 1,044 deaths: That is a particularly bad ratio. The plot thickens when you realise that Trump had encouraged the population to defy the restrictions and that the governor of Michigan, Gretchen Whitmer is a democrat. This looks horribly like a political ploy by Trump at the expense of the population and a play to coddle up to his red-neck supporters. It would be interesting to know how often he has attacked democrat governors compared to republican governors. I note that Andrew Cuomo, the republican governor of New York, is having quite a stoush with Trump.

Crises of this nature should be beyond politics.

It is shame that we can't allow them to dispense with the lockdown in Michigan and hope that those on the steps of their courthouse (I assume) are those to become seriously infected. Of course that doesn't happen in practice and it is the collateral damage that becomes the most sad aspect: Just like in any gunfight.

Anyhow, back in good old Oz, we appear to be performing much better than so many parts of the world. Actually, with a population two and a half times that of Michigan compare our cases (6547) and deaths (67).

Regards
Paul

The following article has a few interesting points. It questions the use of ventilators (based on hospital experiences), it describes the use of oxygen masks instead, it comments that severe cases present the symptoms of altitude sickness and describes the bizarre transition of patient health from laughing/joking to dire straits in a matter of minutes.

Coronavirus: Are 'live-saving' ventilators actually dangerous? | Daily Mail Online

We still absolutely know so little about this virus.

Regards
Paul

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Originally Posted by Bushmiller

I note that Andrew Cuomo, the republican governor of New York, is having quite a stoush with Trump.

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That's more likely because Cuomo is a Demo (there have been suggestions that he should challenge Biden, but he declared no intention because NY needed a steady hand)

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Originally Posted by Bushmiller

We still absolutely know so little about this virus.

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Very important point Paul. I'm not blaming the medical staff I'd say by far most they are trying to do their best but I wonder how the rush to bring in tech to solve problems clouds the issues.

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Originally Posted by doug3030

Make whatever you want from that Brett. Able-bodied white heterosexual males are unique in being the only group that have no lobby group standing up for them. The world seems to support quotas and lobby groups for:

Women
Genders/sexual preferences other than heterosexual (all 97 of them)
Disabled people
minority ethnic groups

Good to see a group that has nobody else lobbying for them standing up for themselves. :2tsup:

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I dont know - I look at that picture and I see PLENTY of disability and dysfunction:

-- ED
-- Depression
-- Alcohol abuse
-- Poverty
-- Insecurity
-- Brain damage
-- Lack of social inclusion
-- Stifled career
-- Low and/or lacking education

Add to that a history of wife/child abuse and probably an unhealthy obsession with the wrong sort of pr0n.

These are not typical men. They are unfortunate and sad remnants of a failing system... too stupid to realise their own absolute mediocrity and profoundly lacking the intelligence to remedy it.

They are fringe lunatics, no different to so-called middle-eastern jihadists, but a different country.