Keep it clean guys!!
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Keep it clean guys!!
That's right. And that's the overall point I was trying to make. It's pointless to single one side out and lambaste them as the enemy and sole cause of all problems. You need to see both sides of it: bad employers equals bad unions equals bad employers and so on. I's a closed circuit, and as Silent indicated, there are no obvious solutions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alastair
Nothing personal intended Waldo, just part of the debate. :D
Unfortunately I think that to hope for balance is a Utopian dream, as either side of the equation, by definition, will try to maximise the advantage available to them.
I will reserve my cynicism, but let's say that I hope that we can aspire to some form of conservative labour ethic:
To put it another way, I would like to believe we get Tony Blair, and not Harold Wilson
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alastair
I think we agree more than we disagree. :D I would hate to return to the days of newspapers full of news of strikes and disputes. I don't forget those days. But it takes two to tango ....
In 1986 I was working for a printing company that was a non union shop. Everyone was paid above award wages, around $50 per week, which was around 12% above the award, we had very good conditions, were happy with the employer and got on and did a good days work.
The business was sold to the local newspaper which was run to militant union rules. Within 5 minutes of the first day that the new owners were in charge we were visited by the shop steward who told all staff that they had to join the union. Most joined, I resisted.
I was then called to a meeting and told that I had to join or everyone else would be called out on strike. My reply was they could strike as much as they liked, I would turn up to work and get paid while they got no wages, see if I cared. I was told I would not be allowed to enter the premises if I did not join. I had to be restrained from putting said officials head thru a brick wall.
End result was I did not have to join, and the others who had joined then tried to unjoin from union, but were not allowed to do so. I think that they were more peed off about that than me.
The union made sure that everyone who was on over award wages lost those extras. They could not remove them from us, but every CPI or Indexed rise that happened for the next 3 years was not passed on until we were back on the award.
I have only had 3 jobs in 28 years, I left my first job after 8.5 years after the union standover tactics, my second employer was a good employer for 8 years, but then the business started going bad because of his excesses, and I left after 8.5 years also. The business went bellyup about 18 months later so I just got out in time.
I have been with my current employer now for nearly 11 years and in the whole 28 years, apart from 4 years as an apprentice, and 3 months after the union intervention with my first job, I have been paid over the award, currently almost 40% above, and not a single union rep to get that for me, in fact all they have ever wanted to do is have my salary decreased to the award.
My employers have always valued my expertise and work ethic and rewarded me accordingly. I have had a few other run ins with unions over the years, but by making them admit that they are not able to get me as good a conditions that I currently have, I have been able to make them leave me alone.
So you can understand why I think that unions are nothing but self serving, blackmailing extortionists, who have probably outlived there usefulness. They may have some relevance, but not while they continue to display the militant tactics that they have in the past.
geez, I don't know why people are getting so hot under the collar, the election booths are still echoing with the sound of voters and already its the worst thing in the world to have happened. Give the new government a chance, the people have made their choice. You either have to accept the workings of the system and wait 3 years to excercise your rights again or bugger off to an undemocratic country where the government does not change - see how you might like that... We really have relatively very little to complain about in Australia.
Cheers
Michael
Come on Mike its already tuesday and things arn't even back to 2001 let alone 1984 there've had their chance ,everything was going to be wonderful and back to the keating days straight after the election...um wasn't it :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by mic-d
Hey Woodbutcher shouldn't this post be moved to the cooking forum?:UQuote:
Originally Posted by Rossluck
HH.
or the gardening forum, there's a lotta fertiliser here
Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyHammer
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<embed style="margin-bottom:4px" src="http://img.tfd.com/play.swf" FlashVars="soundpath=http://img.tfd.com/hm/mp3/L0026600" menu="false" width="10" height="13" wmode="transparent" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" pluginspage="http://www.macromedia.com/go/getflashplayer"></OBJECT> (lhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/abreve.gifm-bhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/amacr.gifsthttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/prime.gif) </P>tr.v. lam·bast·ed, lam·bast·ing, lam·bastes Informal 1. To give a thrashing to; beat. See Synonyms at beat.
2. To scold sharply; berate.
*LOL* love your sense of humour guys.
Have been in union shops and been a union member didn't do me any good at all. Don't want to return to those days.
Will Rudd be any good? Don't know I was pretty clear before the election that he had not told us much about himself and who he was what drove him other than being PM. We do know that there are many competing interests behind him such as unions and also the various parts of the chattering class that will lobby for political correctness, an apology to the "Stolen Generaration" (the fact is that there were many white children in the same period put in orphanages but there is no claim for an apology or compo to them. Right or wrong the government of the time believed it was doing the right thing) amongst others. Rudd seems to be presenting a classic liberal position on government. This includes free markets individual ability of each of us to decide our own path etc. Very different from the Socialist mantra of the ALP constitution. Lets see what happens.
Studley
Errr I know what it means it was a joke...Quote:
Originally Posted by Rossluck
:UQuote:
joke http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/premium.gif http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/g...una/thinsp.pnghttp://cache.lexico.com/g/d/speaker.gif/http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/g...una/thinsp.pngdʒoʊk/Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/g...una/thinsp.pngjohk]Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciationnoun, verb, joked, jok·ing.
–noun <TABLE class=luna-Ent minmax_bound="true"><TBODY minmax_bound="true"><TR minmax_bound="true"><TD class=dn vAlign=top minmax_bound="true">1.</TD><TD vAlign=top minmax_bound="true">something said or done to provoke laughter or cause amusement, as a witticism, a short and amusing anecdote, or a prankish act: He tells very funny jokes. She played a joke on him. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE class=luna-Ent minmax_bound="true"><TBODY minmax_bound="true"><TR minmax_bound="true"><TD class=dn vAlign=top minmax_bound="true">2.</TD><TD vAlign=top minmax_bound="true">something that is amusing or ridiculous, esp. because of being ludicrously inadequate or a sham; a thing, situation, or person laughed at rather than taken seriously; farce: Their pretense of generosity is a joke. An officer with no ability to command is a joke. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE class=luna-Ent minmax_bound="true"><TBODY minmax_bound="true"><TR minmax_bound="true"><TD class=dn vAlign=top minmax_bound="true">3.</TD><TD vAlign=top minmax_bound="true">a matter that need not be taken very seriously; trifling matter: The loss was no joke. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE><TABLE class=luna-Ent minmax_bound="true"><TBODY minmax_bound="true"><TR minmax_bound="true"><TD class=dn vAlign=top minmax_bound="true">4.</TD><TD vAlign=top minmax_bound="true">something that does not present the expected challenge; something very easy: The test was a joke for the whole class. </TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
HH.
<DL><DT>lead<SUP>2</SUP> <DD>http://www.macquariedictionary.com.au/-/gif/speaker.gif /http://www.macquariedictionary.com.au/-/gif/l.gifhttp://www.macquariedictionary.com.au/-/gif/8.gifhttp://www.macquariedictionary.com.au/-/gif/d.gif/ (say led)
noun 1. Chemistry a heavy, comparatively soft, malleable bluish-grey metal, sometimes found native, but usually combined as sulfide, in galena. Symbol: Pb; relative atomic mass: 207.19; atomic number: 82; density: 11.34 at 20°C.
2. something made of this metal or one of its alloys.
3. a plumb-bob or mass of lead suspended by a line, as for taking soundings.
4. bullets; shot.
5. black lead or graphite.
6. a small stick of this as used in pencils.
7. Also, leading. Printing a thin strip of type metal or brass, less than type high, for increasing the space between lines of type.
8. frames of lead in which panes are fixed, as in windows of stained glass.
9. (plural) sheets or strips of lead used for covering roofs.
10. See red lead. See white lead.
11. Obsolete a cauldron.
--verb (t) 12. to cover, line, weight, treat, or impregnate with lead or one of its compounds.
13. Printing to insert leads between the lines of.
14. to fix (window glass) in position with leads.
--adjective 15. containing or made of lead.
--phrase 16. fill someone full of lead, Colloquial to shoot someone numerous times with a gun.
17. go down like a lead balloon, Colloquial to fail dismally; fail to elicit the desired response.
18. have a lead foot, Colloquial to be given to driving too fast.
19. heave the lead, Nautical to take a sounding with a lead.
20. lead in one's pencil, Colloquial (of a male) sexual vigour; virility.
21. swing the lead, Colloquial to be idle when there is work to be done. [Middle English lede, Old English lēad, related to German Lot plumb-bob] </DD></DL>
:D
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Story of my life mate....if only more people were on my wave length:doh:Quote:
Originally Posted by silentC
HH.
OK, very clever but keep it on topic.
My broadband hasn't turned up yet. :(( Kev's a failure. :(( Bring back Hewson, or maybe Downer. :p
If Abbot becomes the new lib leader he may recall Costello
Quote:
Originally Posted by echnidna
Don't you threaten me :~
:p
I rekon Costello is playing this smart , keep out of the limelight while Labor blame the Libs for everything from the drought we had to have to rising tides , as every Gov does to the previous one when first elected , and then after the next election do a John Howard like Phoenix impression. :rolleyes:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashore
So many are saying John the best Prime Minister we have ever had. I have to admit in his previous life alah Treasurer and earler he was a little bumbling - I am sorry but I just can't be impressed with you - type of guy, but given the reign he did have a long spell there. Yeah yeah - some will say he never changed - but he did get re-elected a bit.
I am not saying he is the best - I think people have such short memories anyone in recent history is all that matters or counts. I don't have far back beyond good old Gough recollection. Ah - now those were the days :D :rolleyes: :o Prime Ministers car would be a Valiant - ah such grace - now if Malcolm had got a P76 instead of losing his pants - well :rolleyes:
Thank goodness we don't take them too seriously.
Let's lobby Kevin 07 to abolish the state / federal system in favour of federal only, then the pool of money can be used in the areas with most need rather than stored and bickered over.
I'm dreaming of a white christmas just like the ones I used to know......
HH.
It'll never happen while you have Labor at State and Federal level but at least the Labor party can tell the States to pull their heads in.
This is one of the most important measurements IMO of Rudd as a leader.... we'll have to wait and see how much control he actually achieves over the states and the unions. We should review this point in 12 months and see how he has done. I'll reserve my judgement until then.Quote:
Originally Posted by silentC
HH.
Do you think G W Bush cares? :D:D:DQuote:
Originally Posted by silentC
P
Probably not but apparently Hillary is looking forward to working with Kev :)
Latest news is a strike over xmas and new year will ground Qantas.:(
Who'd a thought that would happen under labor.....:p
I wanna get in quick...I didnt vote for him...now line up behind me :D
Better send him a needle and thread and some pain killers....hes gunna need em :oo:Quote:
Originally Posted by HappyHammer
Yeah of course it is Kevin's fault. I mean the talks that have been going on for months already before the election in regards to this potential strike have nothing to do with it do they.Quote:
Originally Posted by dazzler
No this is because Qantas staff have to work longer for less to recoup the $69m Qantas have been fined for rigging post costs to the US.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wood Butcher
HH.
Please stop this hypocritical union bashing nonsense.
How many registered trade unions or associations are there in this country?
How many indulge in Thuggish standover tactics of workers or bosses?
How many registered business's are there?
How many indulge in thuggish standover tactics of their employees or those trying to represent them?
Ever heard of a lockout guys?
How many of the union bashers on this forum have at sometime in their lives taken advantage of the benefits won by fights that others paid for.
Or do you donate the dough to your favorite charity?
As for the decline in membership, I was the delegate for many years and had a very reasonable working relationship with boss, membership was at 67%. It was the young ones who never suffered unequal pay for women,
two min toilet breaks for pregnant women, ETC ETC that refused to join because and I quote "I'll get the benefits anyway".
Is there any wonder that there is a bitter feeling toward those who ride the backs of others work?
Maybe some of you are too blinkered to see that your being manipulated by the interests of business, or you may run a business too small to afford a fair deal to your employees. In which case get out and get a job , and I hope its in an industry with a decent (in all senses) Union .
Astrid:cool:
Phew that was a rant:U
Dixon has made Pratt look like a beginner!:oQuote:
Originally Posted by HappyHammer
Stands to reason you would be pro-union then, doesn't it?Quote:
I was the delegate for many years
So you advocate compulsory membership then?Quote:
Is there any wonder that there is a bitter feeling toward those who ride the backs of others work?
I have been a member of a total of one union in my life (excluding the student union at uni). Over a period of 10 years, I watched our 'hard won' benefits eroded away before our eyes. RDO's went first, then leave loading, then overtime. That's why union membership has declined - because unions are now a toothless tiger. It remains to be seen whether Labor will restore them to their former glory, or whether they will submerge forever in a sea of irrelevance.
1. Ever heard of 6 months or so ago where a car parts supplier to Ford and Holden had to shut down? The union said no you can't sack the workers :: Union locked the company down, as a result 100's of workers at the car plants lost their jobs as a result. Nevermind looking after their members :no:Quote:
Originally Posted by astrid
2. Never have. No unions in my industry thank goodness. I've always negotiated my pay and conditions, I'd only be paying money for what I can easily do myself.
3. What's that got to do with anything? Yes I do donate to charity: to Juvenile Diabetes Fund and several orphanages in India.
4. The best situation would be for two choices: join a union and for those who don't want to then they negotiate their own conditions. For those that negotiate the unions steer clear and leave them to get about their job.
5. Yes I run a small business, no I don't employ anyone, but I do contract out, and they're paid $65 per hour for their work.
I was told to join a union when I was a nightpacker, I didn't and got the sack. Go figure.
I don't think anyone is against workers rights being protected. I also don't think anyone wants businesses to be bullied either.
What seems to be at issue, but not stated, is "what is the best way to protect those interests?". At times in our history it has been necessary to protect workers and businesses from each other and their representatives.
Nowadays there is a lot more legislative protection than in the past, and the need for strong measures (strikes and lockouts) has reduced. In that environment the need for unions is lessened, but it does not follow that the need to protect workers has reduced.
Well said Groggy. :2tsup:
no silent, I dont advocare compulsory membership, just that those who arnt members should forfeit benefits gained by those who lost pay to get them, is this unreasonable? and i notice you dont address the issue of what workplaces were like for women without union representation. women were and still are one of the most exploited groups in our community. those who do piecework, those who get up at 4am to clean city offices. working mothers put on rolling short term contracts. and denied long service leave or flexiblility around school holidays plus a host of other things. This happens in white collar work as well as blue. Ask me I'm one of them. Ps my pay didnt come through this week, no explanation,one woman wasnt paid for 6 weeks because of an HR stuff up, one has been waiting for overtime money for 3 months. we work for one of the biggest insurers in the country. and guess what, the Union is locked out. We have no-one to help we just have to wear it. Astrid
Actually, I'm not anti-union per se. I think if you scroll back a couple of pages, you might have even seen me write something to the affect that unions have done a lot of good.
There are certain aspects of the union movement that I don't like, and one of them is this attitude that you're either with us or against us. People have various reasons for not wanting to join a union - they should not be penalised for it. The other is the ugly side that I have witnessed once myself in the past and many other people have related here and elsewhere. I suppose it's a question of how much power you believe unions should have.
BTW I've had my pay not come through a couple of times in the past. I got it sorted out, with no union involvement. Mistakes happen. I usually contacted the HR department or my manager. That's what they're there for.
how are people being "penalised" if they dont get benefits they did'nt work for?
I didnt say you were anti union, what I am trying to point out here is simply ther are good and bad unions and good and bad employers.
To really throw the cat amongst the pidgions lets look at conditions on building sites befor the BLF and Gallhager.
Or the working conditions of overseas sailors befor the painters and dockers stepped in and refused to unload ships untill these conditions improved.
these unions became corrupt but even still they did a lot of good.
my issue is the indiscriminate union bashing for political gain.
and you still havent addressed the women in the workforce issue?
Also unintentional HR stuff ups are one thing, to promote a deliberate fear among contractors that if they strir the pot too much, there wont be renewed is entirely another.
Astrid
So the unions are good for workers>> heres an extract form todays Advertiser in Adelaide.....obviously thats ok and a good deal for workers....mmmmmm I can't see it. Seems very AWAish to me but its ok Kev is in now and he will stop this discrimination I guess:D
Pete
Isn't this thread locked yet? :D