The carbon tax is wonderful

Until recently gas was a waste product because we had no way of shipping it offshore. When you bought it you were basically paying for the infrastructure/delivery not the gas.

Now we have gas terminals and ships to cart it and the price overseas has gone up we're being sucked in to world parity pricing again (we know from experience how that ends).

The seam gas in mines isn't straightforward to capture. You either extract it after it's diluted with air or you interfere with the main game, shearing off coal to sell. Gas has a value but it's not that high yet. At some point it might become economic, but I don't think we're there yet.

I have never worked for a mining company, I worked in research and testing for the coal industry for some years. I am not in any way beholding to them, and it would never shift my opinion on anything. I will say I won't identify my current employer. They are imbeciles, but they are vindictive vengeful imbiciles, and I'm not quite ready yet to get sacked from this circus. I would never defend them though :) I just don't like some of the misinformation spread in propoganda so I perk up on coal to set the record straight from time to time. I'm equally ready the point out their sins, like f'ng coal seam gas mining....

Hope that clears it up.

Point 1. most Australian, when talking about Gillard, or even thinking about her, start to get steamed up and irate.
Point 2. when a person gets irate, they breath faster and heavier, thus expelling more carbon dioxide.
Solution. Get rid of Julia Gillard, and we will immediately reduce carbon (dioxide) emissions by half.

I think she is wonderful.
She has given all Australians a common purpose and has helped bind us together in the same way the NSW Labor party assisted all in NSW to think as one.
Greg

Quote:

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Point 1. most Australian, when talking about Gillard, or even thinking about her, start to get steamed up and irate.
Point 2. when a person gets irate, they breath faster and heavier, thus expelling more carbon dioxide.
Solution. Get rid of Julia Gillard, and we will immediately reduce carbon (dioxide) emissions by half.

---

What he said.

if there are genuine conserns about carbon emisions why are we utilising uranium in this country?
here's an idea, lets stop importing products from the real polluters and make the products here but, in a greener fashion.think about it, more jobs for australians, more tax dollars for gillard without the introduction of a carbon tax, we all win.

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Originally Posted by kraits

here's an idea, lets stop importing products from the real polluters and make the products here

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We will never see a labor government install such a level of protectionism, it would
likely send wages and conditions crashing, and send us on a collision course with
all sorts of free trade agreements, but individually we can make those choices.

Have to agree with you Col, particularly since we seem to be the only donkeys playing on th very small level part of the level playing field!

We have heard many arguments for "green energy", one of them being job creation. I would like to see this particular argument proved.

I think a good argument for a carbon tax is that it is intended to reduce our reliance on transportable fossil fuels.To me this is no bad thing. I Would like to see extra levies on petrol and diesel. This would force people to be more circumspect about their fuel consumption and eventuall force people into purchasing more fuel efficient vehicles or, better still shift more people to use public transport.

Of course this would require a rethink on public transport services and the fares charged. Perhaps, to begin with, the providers of public transport could be given tax relief on fuel and vehicle purchases whil extra taxes or fees are charged for owners of prvate vehicles .


OK fellas, the scrum has been fed!!:D

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Originally Posted by artme

Have to agree with you Col, particularly since we seem to be the only donkeys playing on th very small level part of the level playing field!

We have heard many arguments for "green energy", one of them being job creation. I would like to see this particular argument proved.

I think a good argument for a carbon tax is that it is intended to reduce our reliance on transportable fossil fuels.To me this is no bad thing. I Would like to see extra levies on petrol and diesel. This would force people to be more circumspect about their fuel consumption and eventuall force people into purchasing more fuel efficient vehicles or, better still shift more people to use public transport.

Of course this would require a rethink on public transport services and the fares charged. Perhaps, to begin with, the providers of public transport could be given tax relief on fuel and vehicle purchases whil extra taxes or fees are charged for owners of prvate vehicles .


OK fellas, the scrum has been fed!!:D

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Hang on a minute - not all of us live in the big smoke.

Public transport = very limited in area, frequency and basically only daylight hours.
Rail = miles away
Fares - don't even start - try getting a flight from a regional centre which is only served by one outfit - it is cheaper to fly Brisbane to Adelaide than Hervey Bay to Brisbane.

I could go on but you get the idea.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bob38S

Hang on a minute - not all of us live in the big smoke.

Public transport = very limited in area, frequency and basically only daylight hours.
Rail = miles away
Fares - don't even start - try getting a flight from a regional centre which is only served by one outfit - it is cheaper to fly Brisbane to Adelaide than Hervey Bay to Brisbane.

I could go on but you get the idea.

---

I get where you're heading, but I don't think you get the idea.

For public transport to work, it has to solve the issues you raise. You're right to claim it doesn't currently do that for any of us, but if it did we would be a lot less reliant on our private transportation. The reason it doesn't do it now, is that Australia has under invested in this sort of infrastructure for many decades.

Public transport works well when it's done right. We don't have much of that in Australia, but there is some light at the end of some very long and dark tunnels. I would suggest the TransPerth N/S rail link as one example of good planning and execution.

Visit almost any city in Europe to have your eyes opened.

woodbe.

I live 10 hilly kms from the nearest bus stop.

The trouble with deploying PT in Australia is that outside the cities our population is so thinly spread it's unviable. There is no comparible place on earth that has made public transport work. The numbers just won't fly.

The free trade thing is funny. The boarders were mostly opened by Hawke, our "great reformer". Most of our manufacturing closed during his rein, instead of collecting tarriffs we now subsidise the auto industry to a ridiculous extent, real wages dropped, unions became bigger and less relevant to the membership (and more overtly corrupt), the "entrepeneurs" made a lot of money, poverty doubled between 84 and 94, and for their final act the recession we had to have sent many people out of their homes and bankrupt.

But Labour is a socialist party representing the working class...isn't it ?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by damian

I live 10 hilly kms from the nearest bus stop.

The trouble with deploying PT in Australia is that outside the cities our population is so thinly spread it's unviable. There is no comparible place on earth that has made public transport work. The numbers just won't fly.

---

There are plenty of examples of cities around the world with populations like ours that enjoy really good public transport.

I agree that it isn't easy to provide good PT to rural areas, but that doesn't mean we should do nothing of any consequence in both the cities (where most of the daily trips are undertaken anyway) and the rural areas.

Basically, if you have a crappy system, it won't get enough use to justify maintaining and extending it. That's why our system is a shambles. The potential customers tend to invest in private transport instead. It would now take a long time and a lot of public funds to build a system that would attract people back from private transport.

woodbe.

yes but hammering fuel prices or regos penalises people in rural areas while offering them no viable alternative. That's the point Bob and I are trying to make.

If we were really serious about this the government would move ALL non geographically sensitive government positions out of ALL cities. The funny thing is it'd be revenue positive as office and facility rents are lower away from CBD's. People would still have to commute but the distances may be short and the absence of traffic would mean fuel consumption would decrease, not to mention the benifits to cost of living and quality of life for everyone.

Public transport appears to be poor in major population centres. If you travel away from those centres it is no longer poor, it is either non-existant or close to non-existant.

By all means offer fuel incentives to public transport companies, but why penalise the population who live in country areas? That part of the population already pays more for most products around. Do they need a further imposition?

The nearest major centre to me (where there is some modest public transport) is 80km away. I am fortunate in that I don't have worry too much about travelling in, although my nature is such that I limit my travel and save up the reasons to travel that distance.

However, there would be many people in my region who just would not be able make the trip.

We seem to be locked into penalties as opposed to incentives.

I was once told, a long time ago, that Australia was a lucky country because everybody (a slight exaggeration) owned a car. The person imparting this knowledge smiled and said, "Actually, if you want to go anywhere, you have to own a car!"

Regards
Paul

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Originally Posted by damian

yes but hammering fuel prices or regos penalises people in rural areas while offering them no viable alternative. That's the point Bob and I are trying to make.

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Oh. So sorry. I thought you were trying to say that good public transport is not possible in this country. Thanks for clearing that up.

feel free to carry on! :D

woodbe.

why can't anyone see that it's not about saving the environment, it's all about revenue raising, tax's, another tax, big deal, call it carbon tax or what you will, they are going to tax us on things your grandfather wouldn't and couldn't have thought of.

why do we accept it? imagine if they tried this in italy or Sth korea or some other country where there not afraid to start a riot and burn things when the government tries to exploit them. she'll be right mate, sure, no worries. cost of power going up, fuel going up, even trying to put water meters on farmers dams here in s.a, one day dont be suprised if we let it go your going to be wearing a metre on your face and been charge for the air you breath.

carbon tax is for mugs that beleive the governments propaganda and lies.this isn't what our forefather fought for in the great wars, this is criminal and its been sold to us by a facsist government and were letting it happen.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by damian

yes but hammering fuel prices or regos penalises people in rural areas while offering them no viable alternative. That's the point Bob and I are trying to make.

...

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:2tsup:

The public transport "system" is problematic, as some of you have pointed out. Part of the problem in this country is that we have enjoyed cheap personal transport forever and now that fuel prices are rising people are just begining to feel the pain and inconvenience. The reaction has ben totally predictable.

No one wants to penalise those who live in non urban areas, and that needs to be dealt with. The fact remains though, that the VAST majority of Australians live in ever spreading urban areas that should have good public trnasport. And yet, da after day we see endless lines of cars with single occupants traversing our cities. Crazy!!

I have been through Europe and a fair portion of South America and the States.

Public Transport in Europe is excellent, as Woodbe says. It is also very good in places like Rio de Janeiro, Sao Palo, Curitiba, Santiago, Valparaiso and Buenos Aires. New York is a breeze on public transport as is San Francisco and, from my limited experience, Los Angeles.

I wonder how effective it would be to provide FREE public transport in some circumstances and we would them be able to judge the savings in infrastructure costs, maintenance, and pollution.

Another of our problems is that public transport always seems to be an afterthought in the planning of cities and their spread.What is wrong with planning the transport routes first and then building around them? There is a brilliant example of this in Curitiba , Brasil.

MAybe I need to become the Minister for Transport.:q

I got moved into the cbd this year. I've been living weekdays at my partners place at chapel hill, 9.5 kms from the cbd, and taking the bus.

This morning it took me 90 minutes to get to work.

It costs $3.70ish each way, I get coughed on, knocked about, incenced at the queue jumpers seat hoggers and other rude behaviour, and of course it's unreliable and uncomfortable.

In the 80's a calculation was done on sydney's trains and they found the railways would lose the same amount if they ran them for free. I suspect with the translink debarcle the same would apply to brisbane transport. The only good thing to come of it is the higher fairs ahve stopped so many people taking the bus I now get on the first one that comes (instead of it being full and driving by) and usually get a seat.

I am desperately trying to find another job to get out of the cbd. It's awful and terribly depressing.

Before you offer the usual smug, ill considered greenie solutions like walking or cycling my knees are stuffed. I can barely walk any distance so bikes and footpaths are out of the question, and with the imbecils on Brisbane's roads I'm not motorcycling either.

Perhapse we could convince the greenies to mass suicide for the good of the enviroment. That'd solve my problem.

It's possible the PT system could be fixed but it'd be nice if we went back to the pre war society where most people lived a few miles from work and both were more evenly distributed, ie decentralise (and sack all the desk pilots in the public service).

Extra cranky today. Apart from my miserable commute I've got barrett's syndrome apparently. Pathology results monday. Sigh.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by damian

Before you offer the usual smug, ill considered greenie solutions like walking or cycling my knees are stuffed. I can barely walk any distance so bikes and footpaths are out of the question, and with the imbecils on Brisbane's roads I'm not motorcycling either.

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I thought you didn't want to discuss PT?

All, or most of your PT problems would be cured by replacing the current system with one designed to actually cater for the load. The unpleasantness you describe is surely a symptom of an inadequate system.

Hope your health improves!

woodbe.

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Originally Posted by woodbe

I thought you didn't want to discuss PT?

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No. No no no, no ....no no no..no.

I am all for public transport, the issue is with penalising people who don't use it and specifically people who have good reason not to use it.

The rural situation has already been mentioned. I have wrecked knees and walking to and from bus stops totals 2 kms a day. Sometimes I spend the whole weekend sitting down trying to recover from ym enforced walks. There are other people with other resons not to travel on it.

I've always been a big fan of the carrot rather than the stick. Unfortunately our politicians are so busy channelling our taxes into the pockets of their mates there isn't enough to put to good use providing social services we need, and PT is one of those.

Quote:

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All, or most of your PT problems would be cured by replacing the current system with one designed to actually cater for the load. The unpleasantness you describe is surely a symptom of an inadequate system.

Hope your health improves!

woodbe.

---

I agree, but someone has to pay for it, and my reading of the public service is that there is tremendous waste, nepotism and corruption at all levels of government. I worked for the NSW state government when I was young and have come back to the qld state public service more recently. I was utterly shocked (cynical though I am) at just what a basket case the place is. you could probably sack 3/4 of the people and not miss them.

Anyway...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by damian

I agree, but someone has to pay for it, and my reading of the public service is that there is tremendous waste, nepotism and corruption at all levels of government. I worked for the NSW state government when I was young and have come back to the qld state public service more recently. I was utterly shocked (cynical though I am) at just what a basket case the place is. you could probably sack 3/4 of the people and not miss them.

Anyway...

---

This reminds me of a story, years ago, when the 'workers' in a state government head office decided on an extended strike. Only a skeleton staff was left to deal with the public. After 24 hours they went back, not because they had won their claims, but because they realised the public had not noticed any difference in the service.
:doh:

''This reminds me of a story, years ago, when the 'workers' in a state government head office decided on an extended strike. Only a skeleton staff was left to deal with the public. After 24 hours they went back, not because they had won their claims, but because they realised the public had not noticed any difference in the service.''

More of these Ken67,please this cracked me up.:D

Attention, attention Ken67, you are threatening to de-rail this thread:wink:.

........but I laughed too:D.

Regards
Paul

Potentially funny but it's been around for decades and I'm pretty sure it's an urban myth. :)

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Originally Posted by damian

Potentially funny but it's been around for decades and I'm pretty sure it's an urban myth. :)

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Like the one where the construction worker was taken to court for cruelty to animals when he kicked a tortoise to death. His excuse was that it was following him around!!
Cheers,
Jim

Quote:

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Originally Posted by damian

Potentially funny but it's been around for decades and I'm pretty sure it's an urban myth. :)

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slightly off topic ...but Pt Maquarie (on the mid nth coast) has sacked its council and has been under administration ..(for various reasons) for a couple of years now..... many locals would like to vote in the administrators at the next election...

During the past six months, I emailed six politicians on both sides and asked the same questions,

"Does Australia contribute 1.5% to the world level of air pollution? Are we aiming to half that? Does that mean in five years we, Australia, only contributes .75%? Does that warrant the trauma created by a carbon tax?"

All the answers were politically orientated, and completely ignored the questions. We are in deep shyte.

I still believe, as has already been mentioned, we should formulate a proposition and sell it to the world. But then again, that would be like the "level playing field", that was sold to us not to long back.
Jim

Can we arrange them to take over the Federal Government as well?
They need more than administration, they need locking up.
Greg

Just remember your neighbours hired them.

If people were properly educated, taught to think for themselves and to take even a casual interest before an election we would have a far better class of representative.

Each day the courier mail prints a column of opinions on the topic of the day by people in the street. It is one of the most horrifying things I've ever read. Both the level of ignorance and the vague and emotive motivations for their positions are just dreadful.

I really don't care if people disagree with me. I'm happy to respect and defend any well considered opinion. It's the ignorance that kills me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by damian

I got moved into the cbd this year. I've been living weekdays at my partners place at chapel hill, 9.5 kms from the cbd, and taking the bus.

---

There's your problem. You're not "in" the cbd if you are 9.5 k's out of it. Unless you are on a trainline serviced every 15minutes, you are too far away.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by damian

...It's possible the PT system could be fixed but it'd be nice if we went back to the pre war society where most people lived a few miles from work

---

...and you've solved your own problem :)

I "live" in toowoomba, but anytime I work in the city, I look for accomodation within walking distance. It doesn't really matter what it costs, as the time saved out of my day is well worth it.

I'd get weird comments from people that couldn't understand how I could drive back to toowoomba at weekends - it is so far away (2 hours on a slow day). Yet they'd happily sit on a bus for an hour - hour and a half EACH way, EVERY day of the week...which is crazier?

I think for much of the time, we choose where we live like we choose our cars, totally inappropriately:).

Perhaps if money were not an object we would choose better, but probably not. Most of us are forced to live according to our budget. For good reason inner city areas are beyond the budget of most people. There is really no option, in the larger cities, but to commute.

I work directly with four colleagues. I live the closest to work which is about 15km (it takes me 15mins to get to work) two others are 55km away, the third is 65km away and the last one 85km. These other four live on the same route so they share the driving. It is their choice to live further afield. Even the one that lives 85km away is home in just over an hour after he leaves work.

When I last lived in a major city I was able to walk to work quicker than I could drive (and, no, that is not a reflection on my driving ability). The one way road systems were such that I had to drive in the opposite direction first to get to work.

I don't think we should be too critical of where anybody lives in relation to their work, but governments need to recognise that once they place financial impositions on travelling they are under an obligation to provide viable alternative travel. In Oz they have not really done this, as Damian has pointed out primarily because of the distances involved and, relatively speaking, the low population.

Regards
Paul

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Originally Posted by q9

I "live" in toowoomba, but anytime I work in the city, I look for accomodation within walking distance. It doesn't really matter what it costs, as the time saved out of my day is well worth it.

I'd get weird comments from people that couldn't understand how I could drive back to toowoomba at weekends - it is so far away (2 hours on a slow day). Yet they'd happily sit on a bus for an hour - hour and a half EACH way, EVERY day of the week...which is crazier?

---

People live and work where they do for a variety of reasons.

I was previously stationed in a suburb of Ipswich and the chap at the next desk drove from Toowoomba every day. He couldn't live in brisbane for the week not only because of the cost but being away from the wife and kids for 5 days at a time.

My house is 30 kms out. There is NO PT withing 10 kms, unless you count taxis.

It's quite common to travel 2 hours each way in Sydney. I'm taking between and hour and one and a half hours each way to travel a lousy 10 kms.

I don't presume to judge peoples life choices, what I do question is that our society has allowed itself to become so CBD centric. There are many people who would happily leave the cities if they could find work in rural areas.

I'm big on carrots, not so on sticks.

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Originally Posted by damian

There are many people who would happily leave the cities if they could find work in rural areas.

---

damian

Now there's a subject that is worthy of it's own thread if you would like to put it up. The question being whether they really would leave for work.:)

Regards
Paul

Well if I ever find someone silly enough to buy my properties in Brisbane I'll be going with no work. I can just about get by without a job so I'm unusual in that respect, but I have heard people say time and again they only moved to the city, and indeed from NZ, because of the work opportunities.

Most of the people in the coal fields wouldn't live there without the big $.

I think it's safe to say if they could get a decent job with a decent wage in a nice scenic country town many would be off like a shot, especially those with a wife/family. Maybe young people want the excitment....such as it is.

I don't know. I don't understand how anyone votes for the labour party so I guess I'm out of touch with a signifigant portion of the population.

No you're not
Thugs, bullies, criminals, do-gooders and misfits. They run our country and our councils and the labor party is loved by the lazy and the poor, misguided in their attraction, only a strong business community can generate wealth.

Greece is an example of how a country can be stuffed through poor government, a bloated public service, unaffordable pensions and benefits and strong union power.

We could be heading their way unless we have a change of Government soon. Thankfully Victoria, NSW and WA have got rid of their albatross Governments.

Greg


I don't know. I don't understand how anyone votes for the labour party so I guess I'm out of touch with a signifigant portion of the population.[/QUOTE]

:whs: (Greg) And I'll join the ranks of being out of touch too Damian.

People look at issues and say they are to hard. People suggest there will be job losses. They get up in arms and destroy the new.
Well what is this, Its the industrial revolution in the UK. They smashed the looms and did all sorts to stop progress. Well it didnt work then, and it wont work now.
We know man is using energy beyond that that can be sustained. We know man is tossing crap into the air beyond that that can be sustained.
So the questiion is simple, what do you want to do about that.
Its not a question of tree hugging or stopping progress.
Man has a unique gift, he can see the past and predict the future. He also has the gift of innovaion and invention. So should the two centuaries between 1900 and 2100 be the disaster years for man.
Man can not kill the planet, all he can do is kill himself and the majority of life that exists on it now.
The planet will recover to see out its days, whether man is there at the end or not, is our choice now.
argueing the toss as to climate change is arguing against the majority. Or the weather changes we are now seeing. Snow in NZ or rain in Queensland. No one can predict what the changes will be, all we can say is they will get more violent more often, and more deadly.

Will they?

"true believers". I think that lends a clue.

There was a time when workers were terribly exploited by their employers/landlords or whatever. The unions and the labour party played an important role in reining that in.

The trouble is that as far as I've seen socialist organisations tend to be lead by corrupt or incompetant despots. Every socilist government that I can recall degenerated into totalitarian dictatorship. You could forgive them incompetance if thier motives were true, but the unions have degenerated into unaccountable overtly and utterly corrupt institutions with only a casual interest in the members, and of course the labour representatives are drawn from this.

Hawke's government was a tremendous shift. They were probably the most radical right wing government we have had. The word radical in that sentence is always a problem, but their intentions were tainted further by their corruption and possibly a lack of understanding of what those "reforms" would bring, a few years of untethered economic boom followed by a tragic fall which damaged many peoples lives. The amalgamation of the unions resulted in them being divorced from members, the accord brought a drop in real wages. All the while the ruthless pillaged the country for thier own gain. We had a manufacturing industry once.

The labour party had learned that to win and hold government they could ignore their traditional base (who would never vote coalition) and focus spin, pork and "policy" on the socialist elites and perhaps a snow job to pick up some middle class votes. The results was 13 (?) years of labour and social devastation. The BOS notes a doubling of poverty in Australia between 1984 and 1994. So much for socialism.

Extreme capitalism brings a different evil. As I've said before I believe in moderation and balance, it just seems to me labour make a bigger hash of things than the coalition do. I have no great affection for either.

Howard's gun laws were dreadful, tiered hex, middle class welfare, a litany of disasters, but not on the scale of Hawke and now Rudd/Gillard.

2c.

Some of you have found it incredible that anyone could vote labour. Others have pointed to how Labour might have good intentions, but arguably fail to deliver.

It is not easy. Some governments are blessed with good fortune that is no doing of their own (Howard) and others suffer disasters which are also no doing of their own (Gillard). Having said that the Gillard regime does seem to be making even more of a hash than most.

I have made no secret that not only am I a swinging voter, but also I only ever vote people out. I have never voted anybody in. Although I voted labour at the last election I would vote Liberal at the next if they can see their way to removing Abbott.

It is very unfortunate, but quite human, that politicians rarely do what is best for the nation as a whole. Their primarly concern is to keep themselves in office. Their argument is that only by doing the latter can they do the former. Maybe. Probably not as self-interest is a powerful player.

What is there after politics for an ex MP? Unless you have completed the pre-requisite terms of office (three I think) there is only what you did before. If you were wealthy or a lawyer, there is only further prosperity. If you were a tradesman probably nothing much unless you leave out your spell in parliament from your CV .

I am just trying to point out why politicians behave the way they do. Also see the well known phrase at the bottom of my post.

Regards
Paul