if you dont believe in global warming sign this

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Why doesn't the government force people to recycle??

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I seem to recall Keating wacked a 30% tax on recycled paper, I wonder if we still have? it

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Why doesn't the government cut paper usage and move to online transactions??

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Too simple and too hard, beside the govt probably is led around by its bureaucracy.Plus not enough votes in it I suspect

I

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am not against doing something to reduce emissions, but letting market forces dictate what happens is plain wrong and a cop out by the government..

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Cop out maybe, most govt view point goes as far as the next election and how much they need to promise it get back in. Once in the generally do whatever their own agenda dictates.

If you want change then do what the big end of town does. Lobby and Lobby hard or if you cant afford it get as many people as possible on the your side to make contact via phone, email,fax , letter etc to all pollys in Canberra. Polly are swayed by votes and or the lack of them.

'She'll be right" is perhaps the the greatest asset for those in Power, it is in some ways a form of apathy.

Just a point on this issue. Here in Brasil recycling is a way of life and has been for years. There are no government sticks or carrots - it just happens. Maybe this is a good example of "market forces".

The bulk of the population is poor. The Social service set up is barely adequate so people have to do whatever they can to earn a living.

The first time I came here 22 years ago I was staggered to see fellows in Rio pulling carts around in the crazy traffic. These were loaded with cardboard cartons for recycling, Saves the city council huge amounts in rubbish collection and disposal costs.

This still happens.

here where we are living at the moment there are scroungers who walk the streets everyday, collecting cans, plastic and glass bottles. They raid your rubbish but don't spread it to the winds.

A couple i have seen fairly frequently does the nature strip along the beach.

To my knowledge South Australia is the only state where a deposit is charged on bottles and cans.

Incentives to recycle and use renewable energy sources in this country are generally way behind the rest of the world.

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Originally Posted by johnc

A home once you calculate the feed in tarrifs should be cost positive at 2kw or around $12,000 installed when I last looked. But I stand to be corrected however I wonder if you get more bank for your buck if you look at improved insulation and draft control along with fluoro and LED lighting solutions. Retro fitting double glazing is an interesting concept, and one we are about to commence ourselves.

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Do you have a lead on LED's for the home? Compact flouros are OK but at best an interim solution. Im continually messing with air flow in our place. There is a inherent refrigerator under the floor, its just a matter of using it intelligently. I will be very interested to hear how your double glazing goes.

I got the bulbs from this place http://www.ledfx.com.au/ it was about $65 for a single 12v globe that gives Lumens similar to a 35W 12V halegon. They are getting in a version that reaches 50W levels and I will pick up four of those and try them as well. Can't say the result was quite what we expected, but suitable for passage and hall. At this stage we are keen but not committed. I don't think they work well for very high ceilings, but for smaller distances between light and work surfaces seem very good. It's all very new to me and I wouldn't mind finding a site that gives some independant comparisons.

Some years ago- in the US I think - A refrigerator was built with the motor on the top.Hot air rises from the motor to be used for clothes drying. There was also a decrease in the amount of insulation needed for the fridge and less power to operate the fridge.

Simple and effective and probably cost effective for manufacturers.


Have a look at Expat's post where he is setting up his workshop. Insulation will save a packet in in heating for him.

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Originally Posted by Sebastiaan56

Do you have a lead on LED's for the home?

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My local tooling supplier has gone heavily into LED lighting as a bit of a side project..He even has LED replacement fluoro tubes...Expensive at $60 a pop but they last 50 000 hours +

Engineering Tools Australasia, your online engineering tools super store.

I would love to move to all LED lights, if we all went to them the cut in emissions would be huge..

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Originally Posted by .RC.

My local tooling supplier has gone heavily into LED lighting as a bit of a side project..He even has LED replacement fluoro tubes...Expensive at $60 a pop but they last 50 000 hours +

Engineering Tools Australasia, your online engineering tools super store.

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I would love to move to all LED lights, if we all went to them the cut in emissions would be huge..

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I too have watched the development of LED at the moment cost and effectiveness are not quite there as to be come house items in general, but its only matter of time.

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Just a point on this issue. Here in Brasil recycling is a way of life and has been for years. There are no government sticks or carrots - it just happens. Maybe this is a good example of "market forces".

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With this in mind I have always maintained the recycling must be made as easy as possible, other wise in the daily busy life style we all seem to lead it wont be done effectively.

As to market forces I agree, having lived and traveled extensively in South East Asia. Its the same there, although I notice as the middle class grows in size and wealth it starts to fade somewhat.

For a good rundown on LED lighting and other alternative technologies check out the Australian Alternative Technology Association. The frequently do reviews of available products and they also sell LED halogen replacement units etc.

Now the libs have got the mad monk in charge - though saying "in charge" might be putting it a bit too strongly.:D
Cheers,
Jim

Oh good, the thread turned positive for 5 minutes. Nice to see everyone pause attacking one another to discuss some practical things. :D

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Originally Posted by damian

Oh good, the thread turned positive for 5 minutes. Nice to see everyone pause attacking one another to discuss some practical things. :D

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Couldn't resist it I'm afraid:D

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Originally Posted by damian

Oh good, the thread turned positive for 5 minutes. Nice to see everyone pause attacking one another to discuss some practical things. :D

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Going back to the positive - should the country that invented the Hills Hoist be embracing the use of electric powered clothes driers?
Cheers,
Jim

I dug up my clothes line and gave it to my girlfriend. Never use the things, while she hates tumble dryers.

And that is the basis of my objection to this sort of approach. Governments always answer any issue with regulation and penalty. Happens in driving, gun ownership, pollution, everything. Same solution. Suits them because it give the ignorant "someone to blame", enhances the power and control of government over the people.

So coal fired electricity generation pollutes. Don't disagree. Carbon tax ? Not the right answer. Photovoltaic rebates, great answer. Government bulk buying energy efficient systems and onselling them to consumers at wholesale prices, low cost and great solution with real measureable outcomes.

Water is another classic example. Sure they gave us subsidies for a while to put tanks on (tanks were actually banned in brisbane in the 90's thanks Labour Lord Mayor Sooley), but now those rebates have been restricted or withdrawn. The government would much rather build desal plants and recycle industrial waste into our water supply. Moreover people are suspicious that the Qld government will start taxing the water we collect off our roofs. You have to pay water rights for dams in qld, don't know about down south.

Sorry, ranting again. Just makes me cranky they won't encourage people to both save money and reduce their enviromental footprint, but would rather force new costs onto people via new bureaucracies, taxes and laws.

Down here water companies are complaining about lack of profit - people are using less water. One thing leads to another.
Jim

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Originally Posted by damian

Sorry, ranting again. Just makes me cranky they won't encourage people to both save money and reduce their enviromental footprint, but would rather force new costs onto people via new bureaucracies, taxes and laws.

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I'll join in. Its the only real power they have... oh that and send our best and bravest to fight stupid proxy wars in third world countries. What if the military budget was spent on rejigging our infrastructure? It wont happen as every leader dreams of being a Churchill, but still.

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Originally Posted by damian

I
Water is another classic example. Sure they gave us subsidies for a while to put tanks on (tanks were actually banned in brisbane in the 90's thanks Labour Lord Mayor Sooley), but now those rebates have been restricted or withdrawn. The government would much rather build desal plants and recycle industrial waste into our water supply. Moreover people are suspicious that the Qld government will start taxing the water we collect off our roofs. You have to pay water rights for dams in qld, don't know about down south.

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The issue of bot h water and electricity saving measures has been a thorn in my side for years.
When the reticulated water supply was put in at home- I was very small but remember the celebrations - you would not be hooked up until you disconnected AND removed your tanks.Dad described this as rank idiocy. How right he was!!!

When I lived in Coffs Harbour the local council forbade me putting in a tank on "Aesthitic grounds". I offered to put in an underground tank and was again forbidden.

I guess they did not want people bypassing their revenue raising.

With electricity, it would be interesting to do a cost analysis to see if subsidizing photo-voltaic arrays and solar systems is cheaper than building dams and power stations.

I Put a solar hot water system In the house I built in Leeton. The local County Council Did not want to grant me off peak rates for the times I might need it. A threat of court action fixed that.

The same thing with energy efficient housing. Wanted to build a pise or a mud brick house. Council would not allow. The Cheif Building Inspector told me this was because they had no specifications or codes to cover them and "they probably aren"t strong enough".

Year slater I realized I could have challenged this in curt but the hassle is too great.

There are many ways to save energy and cut pollution. Trouble is the greedy companies can't make money from them.

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Originally Posted by artme

I guess they did not want people bypassing their revenue raising.
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and if you got the government subsidy to put a tank in you got an incresd on your sewer bill relating to the size of the tank fitted

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Originally Posted by Ashore

and if you got the government subsidy to put a tank in you got an incresd on your sewer bill relating to the size of the tank fitted

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Is that fact or fiction? I've heard it mentioned before, but it was unclear if this was fact or conjecture. We've gotten the tank rebate, but as we don't have a sewerage connection (we have a septic system) there was noting to tack to charge onto.

I'm truly interested.

I just got sent this,

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pA6FSy6EKrM&feature=player_embedded"]YouTube- Broadcast Yourself.[/ame]

:brava:

And to add. If you didn't watch Lateline Business you missed a very interesting discussion. Lateline Business - 01/12/2009: Industry figures spar on emissions trading

The views expressed by Nathan Fabian, from the Investor Group on Climate Change, especially highlighted who is really going to win from an ETS. :~ and why the big push for it.

Listen to last nights Late Night Live as well. Senator Heffernan (spelling?) pointing to the losses in the proposed markets.

Well given the defeat of the bill in the upper house, we can most likely put this thread to bed and close it.:2tsup:

Unfortunately it will be a back as a political issue as both "L"'s have it a part of their policy platforms. Play will recommence next year after the positioning over XMAS.

edit: both parties have climate manipulation in their platforms, not necessarily an ets

The only reason Global Warming has made it so far in the media is probably because somewhere, some person, company or country is making a metric crap-load of money ! I'll sign any petition for this myth...

As a former science teacher, I can say that the Earth goes through natural temperature fluctuations.

my two cents worth anyway...

Diver Doug

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Originally Posted by diver doug

T
As a former science teacher, I can say that the Earth goes through natural temperature fluctuations.

my two cents worth anyway...

Diver Doug

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As a teacher you should know that Politicians generally know alot less about science than Scientists. Note also the flip flop stand of The Monk over the issue. I've seen quotes from this man supporting global warming and then there are quotes where he takes a completely opposite stand on the issue. These are both good reasons for me not to sign the petition. :D

Darn. We had a whole page where no one was doing this :)

You gotta admit, with Tony Abbott leader of the opposition it's going to be funny, funnier than it has been in years.

And ain't Rudd happy about it...

Rudd is a nasty nasty man. Doesn't always come off that way in the media, but off camera....

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Originally Posted by damian

Rudd is a nasty nasty man. Doesn't always come off that way in the media, but off camera....

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I would say it does. Watch in question time how he makes personal attacks when he has got nothing else to say and how he always turns away from the person who asked the question on the other side of the floor and always instead and addresses his own party members.

I would love the day if ever I came face to face with him.

Just read this, IMHO rather interesting, article in The Washington Post

washingtonpost.com

I particularly like the first and the last sentence:rolleyes:

The old personal freedom scare huh..... Sorry I dont see why freedom would be eroded. IMO more freedoms have been lost fighting the threat (not the reality) of terrorism. Please explain how personal freedom would be more eroded.

edit, I'll be a bit more specific, everything agreed to at the conference will be subject to the processes of the sovereign governments. The opposition just proved they can kill whatever Rudd puts up. Rudd will need to change the laws in Aust by the normal means and wont be able to now that the God coalition has the reins of the opposition. This article is from America and was preceded a few weeks ago by a thread with a bloke bemoaning the loss of American freedoms see here https://www.woodworkforums.com/f43/au...-track-107636/ It was dicussed there.

Btw the US still hasnt signed the Convention on the Rights of the Child, no chance they will sign anything at Copenhagen, its all scare mongering.

Sebastiaan, I was merely linking to an article about the Copenhagen conference, as I didn't write the article, nor necessarily endorsed its' content, I don't think I owe you an explanation for any its' content.

I will repeat however that the first and last sentence tickled my sense of humour:rolleyes:

"Cogito Ergo Simp" (My mind is...umm what's a mind? )

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Originally Posted by Big Shed

Sebastiaan, I was merely linking to an article about the Copenhagen conference, as I didn't write the article, nor necessarily endorsed its' content, I don't think I owe you an explanation for any its' content.

I will repeat however that the first and last sentence tickled my sense of humour:rolleyes:

"Cogito Ergo Simp" (My mind is...umm what's a mind? )

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Apols mate, the misinformation drives me a bit spare sometimes, both sides do it and neither looks any better for it,

ah yes... what is a mind?

No sweat, people get just a litlle too intense about this subject at times, as you say on both sides.

From where I sit Global Warming/Climate Change is rapidly becoming the McCarthy-ism of the 21st century, anyone expressing any doubts about the causes, however small, is immediately branded un-American, un-Australian etc.

Sorry, having trouble reading these posts, my PC is still affected by the Y2K bug.. (which someone may have made some money from.)

.....And the plot thickens with deals being done behind closed doors. The usual collection of corruption,avarice, greed and skulduggery.

Suggesting to me its got very little if anything to do the climate control, but rather power and greed.




Leaked agreement rocks Copenhagen - Yahoo!7 News

Draft Copenhagen climate change agreement - the 'Danish text' | Environment | guardian.co.uk

Gonna be a lot more leaks before its done. Here is my favourite loonie getting hassled by the "Hitler" youth. Its getting personal up there.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZZw8yF5alkM"]YouTube- Broadcast Yourself.[/ame]

I wonder if they all walked or swan there; being so concerned with their emmisions they surely couldn't have flown in dirty jets.
They also seem quite happy to wear polyester from textile factories rather than hand woven hemp clothes.
####ing hypocrites.

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Originally Posted by Gingermick

I wonder if they all walked or swan there; being so concerned with their emmisions they surely couldn't have flown in dirty jets.
They also seem quite happy to wear polyester from textile factories rather than hand woven hemp clothes.
####ing hypocrites.

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:2tsup:

I often wonder if they think that far myself.

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I often wonder if they think that far myself.

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I very much doubt it, do as I say..........



Al Gore House - How Much Electricity Does Al Gores House Use - thedailygreen.com

although some progress has been made

Al Gore greened his mansion, flew commercial to Copenhagen talks - Green House - USATODAY.com

Didn't think much of Prof Ian Plimer's performance on Lateline last night (Tuesday 15/12)..Monbiet (a journalist) ran rings around Plimer (a Geologist).

A very bad performance from someone who's supposed to be one of the heroes of the sceptic camp.