Unions, loathe em, love em or balance

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Originally Posted by wheelinround

Astrid I cant see why apprentices are a difficult topic a checkout operator straight out no sorry even before leaving school is paid better at times $100 more than an apprentice.
An office junior goes straight onto what a 4th yr apprentice would be getting, no tools no additional fee's to pay. Apprentices in many ways are todays yesteryears slaves and whipping boys & girls.

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You have got to be kidding. An apprenticeship is a paid education system. Many apprentices cost their employer money, especially at the early stages. Is that education not worth the $100 per week you imply they are being short paid.

Most of my peers went into the construction industry and were earning more than I was for my first few years. Some still earn more than I do. I however knew very little when I came straight out of uni. I appreciated and valued the 'on the job' education. Your attitude is short sighted.

The shop assistant and office junior will not progress at anywhere near the rate of an apprentice in terms of income. I know which one will earn more within a relatively short time.

I've never been a "Union Man" and probably never will. But on the other hand I'm not anti union either.

You may or may not have heard that the script writers for TV shows have gone out on strike in Hollywood and New York. The strike is about residuals on DVDs and digital downloads. According to published reports, on a DVD that sells for $19, the producers (a.k.a. Studios) get $9 of the sale price. The writers get $0.05.

In other words, the producers get enough from the DVD sale to go to the theater and see the movie. The writers get enough money to pay for the time on the parking meter to view the opening credits, but only if the writers car pool.

I think the premise for unions is fine, the problem is some of the individuals involved and how they react to the power of the position they have. Let's see if K07 can maintain a balance and get rid of the bad apples....only time will tell.

HH.

I reckon the problem is the attitude of members who believe that non-members are scabs.

The problem with what we have here is that it is not a workers struggle....its a class struggle......comrade.

Come the revolution and all counter revolutionary or just plain silly threads like this one will be exterminated.:no:

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Originally Posted by Bleedin Thumb

The problem with what we have here is that it is not a workers struggle....its a class struggle......comrade.

Come the revolution and all counter revolutionary or just plain silly threads like this one will be exterminated.:no:

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BT,
I think it's done well on the "Rantometer". I thought that was its aim.
I'm not sure how it rates on the "Spleen ventometer" though.

Rob

I reckon this thread should be in the drivelers forum ...and the election one as well ...both are a load of drivel.
Pete

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Originally Posted by boban

You have got to be kidding. An apprenticeship is a paid education system. Many apprentices cost their employer money, especially at the early stages. Is that education not worth the $100 per week you imply they are being short paid.

Most of my peers went into the construction industry and were earning more than I was for my first few years. Some still earn more than I do. I however knew very little when I came straight out of uni. I appreciated and valued the 'on the job' education. Your attitude is short sighted.

The shop assistant and office junior will not progress at anywhere near the rate of an apprentice in terms of income. I know which one will earn more within a relatively short time.

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True usually a 1st yr apprentice cost an employer but at the same time the employer is compensated by the government to the tune of approx $6k while the employer charges at normal rates for the work done. This goes through to 3rd yr when most employers get rid of apprentices even in union shops.

Minimum wage is set by either Unions or government dept's. but there are always those who take advantage and those who respect a persons value.

So the horror stories of how bad the unions are surface quickly. It's not unions per se but the misuse of power and that should be in the hands of the rank and file. An example of a power struggle here in Vic at the moment is the Police Association (read union but association sounds better) Here the accusations fly that "Senr Serg Mullet is a megolomaniac. He is the highest paid union official in Vic, etc etc." No one outside of the police force can assess his value or otherwise to the force. It's up to them to sort it. The AMA is a very closed shop union but are they bullies?

I have just finished reading an economic review written by a self confessed right winger and his comments are worth noting. Greg Combet is a very astute negotiator respected by both sides of business and politics. And thuggery is not confined to unions. The writer cites the Bernie Banton case as a disgrace where the unions fought hard for justice and another case where a worker was severely injured in a coal accident working for BHP and after ten years still has not received compensation. Union Thuggery?

I have worked on the factory floor and in management and know that properly managed unions are vital for workers. I've fought for the union yet at times have stood against them when I saw what I considered wrongful action. It can be bloody hard to be the only one out of step and you often cop it from both sides.

No. The core of this argument should be the temptation and misuse of power, it applies everywhere. Just to cite unions, and practically all of one strata, is to distort this discussion into a ranting, shouting match.

Jerry

Misuse of power applies across the board.

The problem with the union movement is that to be effective, everyone has to be a member. If you have members and non-members working for the same organisation, problems arise. One side says "why should I join a union, they do nothing for me, it should be my decision?" The other side says "why should you benefit from the activities of the union when you are not a member?"

That gives rise to the closed shop, and that's where the problems start. Get rid of unions altogether and replace that system with something funded by the government that addresses employment issues on behalf of ALL employees.

ch chk ch chk ch chk...

:)

They did that,
think it was called workchoices.

Very simple question guys, only requiring a yes or no answer.
Would any of you feel safe working on a skyrise, mine, or on the docks(and Im not talking about subbies) without any union representation or presence?

astrid

Where is the rats ring option?

Silentc,

I thought I had said misuse of power is across the board.

Problem with giving control of workplace to civil servants (why civil servants? Often they are neither civil or servant. cheap shot but couldn't resist it) is that they have no close understanding of the workplace. Their main aim in life is to avoid responsibility which they often do by burying action in masses of legislation and rules that only they can interpret. I believe that the best way to kill an idea is to give it to a committee and let them talk it to death and they do that extremely well.

Government and Opposition by their very nature have ideologies that are different. So to give control to Government agencies is to disrupt the workplace with every change of Government or have I misread the last few years?

Jerry

I was a Union site once and they were the biggest bunch of bludgers I have ever met! I know of one simple task a person could do by himself but the union delegated 4 workers to do the job so what happened all 4 did a paper scissors rock play off to see who was working for the day and the rest went and had a sleep and played ping pong and got paid for it unbelievable!and this was their job everyday

Hi Astrid

I think if you want to join a union then you should have that right. Dont wont to join a union then you should have that right.

Live and let live I say.

Unions and business are like Labor and Liberal. The further away from the middle the more fundamentalist they become, hence what we have seen politically in the past.

Labor gets in, the left and the unions take power, country gets treated like a cash cow and we go into debt and the employers get screwed.

Liberal gets in, business gets power, treats the workers like thier own personal serfs, serfs get the sh**s and the country ends up with workchoices or similar.

Both get turned over by the population who are happy with the middle.