CoronaVirus ==> Empty Shelves

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Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

Sorry to quibble Neil, but formulae can be critical. According to the WHO Brew sheet that Bob posted a while back (reattached here), it should be 4% volume (actually 4.17% but...) of Hydrogen peroxide of 3% concentration (which is why I nominated 2% of 6% concentration, being much cheaper to purchase than 3%).

Peroxide and Glycerol quantities are the same for either alcohol type.


The two formulations are on the 3rd page of the PDF (nominated as page 2 of 9).

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OK, Brett, let's get this right.

Here are the concentrations within the individual ingredients before mixing and the recommended amounts of each at those concentrations, other than the water. The added water will bring the total amount up to give required total volume.

Attachment 471295

I should have also given those WHO mixing proportions in my reply, which would have been far more useful for anyone wanting to making up an Isopropyl batch.

Here are final concentrations of the active ingredients once all the ingredients, including the water, are added in the recommended proportions.

Attachment 471294

As I understand it, % v/v (% volume in total volume) are measures of the concentrations of the active ingredient in a solution. So, a 3% concentration of H₂O₂ when added in the recommended proportions (eg. 41.7 ml in a 1.0 Litre batch) will give a 0.125% by volume of active H₂O₂ ingredient in the total (100%) volume of batch. Those % v/v are given so the concentrations can be tested before use in WHO field operations. Not so relevant for our context.

And, yes the proportion of diluted H₂O₂ ingredient at 3% concentration to be added to the batch to achieve that is about 4% of the batch mix or 41.7mil in 1Litre or 417mil in 10 litres, as recommended by WHO.

And here according to WHO is the role of the H₂O_2.

Attachment 471296

Thanks for the quibble, Brett. I think we have that right now.

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Originally Posted by NeilS

OK, Brett, let's get this right.

Thanks for the quibble, I think we have that right now.

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Goodo Neil. I see the (my) confusion with v/v, and I'm not even sure I looked at the "final concentrations" because I was just working off the mls/litre recommended amounts (which as you say are more useful).

This is a useful series of small graphs which easily compares "growth factors" around the world (Australia's is at the top of the article)
One coronavirus number will let us know if Australia’s outbreak is getting worse - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)

The growth factor (by that measure) is simply today's new cases divided by the average cases over the previous 5 days. Below 1.0 is good (decreasing) above 1.0 not so good, and consistently above 1.0 means that cases are growing exponentially.

Very interesting to note that the vast majority of the countries show had their worst day in mid-March, with March 13th being the most common with 12/25 countries (and in radically different parts of the world, but most commonly in Europe)

I am mindful of Greg Ward's post (#1337), which cautioned us about attacking other nationalities and in principle I agree that it is not constructive. Indeed, our time may well be better spent solving our own issues.

However there are some things that to my mind cannot be ignored, particularly if they point towards a general trend or way of thinking. Yesterday I heard Donald Trump criticise the WHO for handling the Covid-19 situation badly and being biased towards China. As it happens I think the WHO might have done a better job at times and there appeared to be a political influence in the early days. They didn't declare an "emergency" or pandemic status soon enough, but there again we are all guilty of the benefit of hindsight. However, Trump's accusations towards this organisation, towards China and indeed his whole attitude made me see red. The full story is here on a BBC link:

Coronavirus: Trump attacks 'China-centric' WHO over global pandemic - BBC News

Now these comments are coming from the leader of a nation that had the opportunity to see what was happening in the rest of the world and benefit from their situation, but did nothing. These are comments from a nation that has now hijacked medical supplies destined for other countries (US hijacking mask shipments in rush for coronavirus protection | World news | The Guardian) in their desperate and undignified (OK there is nothing dignified about Covid-19) rush to make up for lost time and demonstrate their rich kid tactics.

But mostly it is the public comments perpetuated by Trump in the preceding months that stick in the throat. Have a look at this for the timeline and to my mind disgraceful sequence of comments culminting in the attack on the WHO (not in the calendar but reported in the link above):

Trump'''s Coronavirus Calendar

If our Australian politicians make a single slip up five years ago our media is right onto them. How is it that Trump can get away with such blatantly incorrect comments and then do such about turns and nobody is pulling him up on these inconsistencies? Sure we all make mistakes and, reputably, it is the measure of a man that can admit to these. However, in the first place Trump does not admit to them, but proceeds as if they were never said. Secondly, if the populace goes along with what he says, and I am led to believe that his popularity has not waned during this time, he is at least partially responsible for the dire straits in which the Americans find themselves: Namely, the worst affected nation in the world.

How can he have misled his nationed so disastrously?

Regards
Paul

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Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

We established a while ago that the 20 seconds of hand washing is just the lathering part of the process - i.e. not including the time it takes to rinse off the lather. This is because it can take 20 seconds to denature/disrupt the lipids that protect the virus.

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Not quite. I understand that it takes 20 seconds to remove (break up) the grot on our hands and to get through that right down to our skin surface. We all have a fatty layer on our hands even when they look clean, otherwise we wouldn't leave fingerprints.

Put more succinctly by Norman Swan, ".... handwashing with soap is probably best, because it removes the fat layer on your skin which holds the virus. But hand sanitiser is a very good runner-up."

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Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

So what use is just wiping down hard surfaces? Surely the same metric should be applied, and all of the surface needs to have a lather on it for a full 20 seconds before a rinse wipe down? AFAIK, the lather needs to be agitated too, to completely disrupt the lipid coating - in other words each part of the surface needs to be rubbed with the lather for 20 seconds. That could take *some time*.

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Door handles and the like may need a bit more attention because we are more frequently transferring some of the fatty layers from our hands onto those, but again according to Norman Swan, other hard surfaces that are cleaned relatively frequently, like bench tops, can just be cleaned with a regular detergent in a regular fashion. No need to be so OCD with that!

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Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

This is even more difficult to achieve when wiping down groceries (which I have not been doing). I have been more relying on the virus "dying" within 24 hours on cardboard, and 72 hours on plastic or steel.

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We are using the same protocol of putting whatever we can into quarantine for the recommended periods and only giving the fridge/freezer items immediate attention. A quick detergent wipe over and dry for those. Fresh produce is either cleaned immediately or before use as we would normally do.

This week we had our first supermarket home delivery. That is going to be good, but introduced plastic bags (which we haven't had for well over a decade) so that has introduced another component. At this stage they have just been put as they are into quarantine before being returned at the time of the next delivery, which will be after the quarantine period has expired.

We have a similar protocol for pharmacy items.

Also had our first tele-consult with our doctor last week. That went well for the purpose of renewing scripts, although filling some of those has been a bit tricky. My asthma preventative med has become rarer than toilet paper. Suddenly all those people who have been prescribed asthma preventative medication but not bothered to keep that up until now have become zealous!

Only face to face contact this week was to get our (early) annual flu shot, the seniors one, which is a stronger brew to compensate for the weaker immune response in oldies. It's free, but we may have to get a boost later in the season depending on whether the flu makes a come back after a very slow start this year, presumably due to our collective preventive measures for Covid-19. The Doc who gave us the jabs was fully kitted out in PPE to remind us that it is on out there.

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Originally Posted by Bushmiller

How is it that Trump can get away with such blatantly incorrect comments and then do such about turns and nobody is pulling him up on these inconsistencies?

How can he have misled his nation so disastrously?

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I don't know that he does get away with them Paul, and that will be determined and revealed in November. It is exactly why he has such an apPauling relationship with the press. You have only to watch the Q&A part of his daily press conference to witness that. If someone questions his actions he attacks them, continuing to mutter under his breath when the next person starts their question. When someone else takes up the same line of questioning he really goes for them, cuts them off and then selects a "friendly" questioner from the far right press such as One America. When the social distancing first started in the James Brady Briefing Room, I even saw him say that he would prefer it if 80-90% of the journalists that remained were removed, and "that would just leave 2 or 3 that I like". I did not get the impression that he was joking.

The number of times I've seen him belittle and harangue a reporter is ridiculous. "Why don't you ask a nice question instead of a nasty, snarky question?"
I suspect that many of the reporters enjoy asking him the questions that they should be asking, knowing that he will blowtorch them.

You can catch the daily briefing in the Guardian blog at about 7.30-8 am AEST, but even easier on C-SPAN where you have the choice of watching it live or "from the beginning" which means you can skip through the boring stuff and cut to the Q&A. Look for the panel "White House Coronavirus Task Force Briefing"


As I've stated before, he is not just misleading the USA, but the rest of the world. Pharmacists here in Oz had to be directed not to dispense HydroxyChloroquine a few weeks ago when he first started touting it. Fauci is in a very difficult position, where he knows he has to correct Dr Duck more or less every day, but can't go too hard because he (Fauci) knows his work is too valuable for him to be sacked in a fit of pique.

Trump surrounds himself with largely incompetent enablers, yes people, and ego feeders and soothers, and there are very few adults left in the room. He is only in it for himself and his own glory.

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Originally Posted by NeilS

No need to be so OCD with that!

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No, I haven't been! :D Too much bloody work.
It was just a thought bubble that came to me yesterday, which I figured deserved an answer. (primarily because, as with the WHO Brew formula, it's really important that we get these things right, clear, and without any obfuscation - it can risk being pedantic, but better that than ambiguous or wrong)

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Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

The number of times I've seen him belittle and harangue a reporter is ridiculous. "Why don't you ask a nice question instead of a nasty, snarky question?"
I suspect that many of the reporters enjoy asking him the questions that they should be asking, knowing that he will blowtorch them.

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Almost sounds like the woodwork forum for the past couple of months. :oo: :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by doug3030

Almost sounds like the woodwork forum for the past couple of months. :oo: :rolleyes:

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This thread alone and a lot of the comments within has made me want to come back here a lot less lately. I come here for woodworking discussion, this ain't it.

Has anyone done a graph on the number of posts here each day and whether the curve is flattening out. That would be useful. :D:D

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Originally Posted by Chesand

Has anyone done a graph on the number of posts here each day and whether the curve is flattening out. That would be useful. :D:D

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Yes, it appears that by "socially isolating" people who are "infected" with opinions that may differ slightly from their own, some have definitely succeeded in flattening the post count curve. :D

deleted after reviewing

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Originally Posted by Bushmiller

. How is it that Trump can get away with such blatantly incorrect comments and then do such about turns and nobody is pulling him up on these inconsistencies?
Regards
Paul

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I think if you take a look at CNN and a few other reputable news organisations in the US you'll see that he is being held to account for his, let's be generous and call them 'misleading', statements. It is only Trumpcentric organisations such as Fox News which are acting as apologists for his pronouncements and continuing to disseminate the lies. It's also a truism that Americans tend to rally around the flag during times of crisis and this can show up as support for the governing regime. It doesn't always translate into success at the polls come election time. I believe and hope that, come this year's Presidential election, the American voters (the majority of who are intelligent, sensible people) will ensure that Trump's pigeons come home to roost.
Pete

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Originally Posted by woodhutt

It's also a truism that Americans tend to rally around the flag during times of crisis and this can show up as support for the governing regime. It doesn't always translate into success at the polls come election time.

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Trump Keeps Talking. Some Republicans Don’t Like What They’re Hearing. - The New York Times
“He can’t escape his instincts, his desire to put people down, like Mitt Romney, or to talk about his ratings,” said former Representative Carlos Curbelo, a Florida Republican. “That’s why he’s not getting the George W. Bush post-9/11 treatment. A leader in this sort of crisis should have a 75-to-80-percent approval rating.”

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Originally Posted by doug3030

Yes, it appears that by "socially isolating" people who are "infected" with opinions that may differ slightly from their own, some have definitely succeeded in flattening the post count curve. :D

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All opinions are welcome, just be prepared for responses that don't share your opinions.

As long as we play the ball and not the person, and abide by the forum rules, then it is fair play, IMO.

But, also keep in mind that many of our opinions come out of our values and any attack on those feels like an attack on us personally. We all need to be respectful of other forum members' values (which are rarely stated, but implied, correctly or not) even if we don't share those values. If we concentrate on ideas we avoid trampling on other's values. If done politely, dumping on an idea is not an attack on that person's values.

The places to challenge values is elsewhere, like in political movements, think tanks, religious outfits, ethics committees and in my, and possibly in your, family...:U

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Originally Posted by rwbuild

deleted after reviewing

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Sounds like a smart move.

But, I bet it felt good writing it even if you didn't post it!

I believe that George Dubbya failed to be re-elected as a result of his poor handling of the New Orleans floods following Hurricane Katrina. Until then, he had enjoyed reasonable approval ratings. Hopefully something similar will happen later this year to DT.
Pete

Katrina was in 2005, which the first year of his second, and last allowed, term.

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Originally Posted by woodhutt

I believe that George Dubbya failed to be re-elected as a result of his poor handling of the New Orleans floods following Hurricane Katrina. ....

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Not quite true. Bush served the maximum allowable two terms of four years.

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Originally Posted by bueller

This thread alone and a lot of the comments within has made me want to come back here a lot less lately. I come here for woodworking discussion, this ain't it.

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Yes, well, this thread is in the NOTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH WOODWORK forum, Bueller.

No, need to visit it if it's only woodworking you're after.

And, what a good time to be woodworking.

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Originally Posted by NeilS

All opinions are welcome, just be prepared for responses that don't share your opinions.

As long as we play the ball and not the person, and abide by the forum rules, then it is fair play, IMO.

But, also keep in mind that many of our opinions come out of our values and any attack on those feels like an attack on us personally. We all need to be respectful of other forum members' values (which are rarely stated, but implied, correctly or not) even if we don't share those values. If we concentrate on ideas we avoid trampling on other's values. If done politely, dumping on an idea is not an attack on that person's values.

The places to challenge values is elsewhere, like in political movements, think tanks, religious outfits, ethics committees and in my, and possibly in your, family...:U

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Neil

Thanks for bringing us back on track. There is little I could add to your ethics, but there are a few points I would mention as a result of this thread. I should point out to begin with that I am not a creature of the modern social world in so far as I don't use a mobile phone and I do not participate on Facebook, Twitter or whatever other social forum there is available out there. I only participate on the Woodwork Forums, although I am a member of another two or three. I am reminded once a year that I belong to these when I receive an email reminder that say I have become one year older (thanks a bundle). Actually I don't mind at all. Every day you wake up is a bonus a colleague of mine at work used to say.

So to all intent and purpose this Forum is my internet social world and an extension of my woodworking interests. I raise and participate on this section on subjects that catch my attention. It is and I have to emphasise this, "Nothing to do with Woodwork." It is not compulsory to visit this section and nor is it compulsory to continue visiting. Anybody can "unsubscribe" so they don't continue to receive email notifications.

With regard to this particular debate I believe it has been allowed to continue, despite the political connotations at times and despite the testiness we have seen (actually I think this is understandable owing to the serious nature of the subject, although it would have been better if it had not occured) because it is a world wide issue. It is on the same level as a world war, but without the hand to hand combat. Strictly speaking is does not comply with the Forum regulations so my thanks to the moderators for allowing this despite everything.

I would like to tell you that I have never been guilty of transgressing the rules of the Forum, but that would not be true. I congratulate those who have stepped back and moderated their language as that is easier said than done. I can absolutely forgive that. I find it more difficult to forgive deliberate baiting and otherwise mischievous behaviour. A little banter is quite acceptable. I like the occasional digression (if that becomes illegal I would have to delete half my posts) and I like some humour to lighten the mood when everything starts to get a bit fractious.

Something that I particularly take from discussions in this section of the Forum and this thread especially is the wide range of background that the participants have and the skills they bring to the debate. I am wiser than I was because of your contributions, your web links, your viewpoints and your opinions.

Keep informing us all.

Regards
Paul

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Originally Posted by Bushmiller

I am wiser than I was because of your contributions, your web links, your viewpoints and your opinions.

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Yes, I have been better informed, and therefore better prepared as a result of many of the posts in this thread. :2tsup:

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Originally Posted by Bushmiller

How can he have misled his nationed so disastrously?

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Demagogue - Wikipedia

Because, simply, he is a demagogue.

He is dangerously irrational, disastrously incompetent, a kiss-up kick-down manager and profoundly stupid.

He represents the collective total of the very worst traits of Americanism.

What a shameful, deeply shameful, episode that democracy has suffered.

Don't know if any of you have seen the ABC comedy skit on corona virus armchair experts, their degree gained in 2 days from a study of Wikipedia, their knowledge broad and their competence unalloyed.
Worth a look

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Originally Posted by woodPixel

He is dangerously irrational, disastrously incompetent, a kiss-up kick-down manager and profoundly stupid.

He represents the collective total of the very worst traits of Americanism.

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But other than that he's a stable genius? :D

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Originally Posted by NeilS

The places to challenge values is elsewhere, like in ... my, and possibly in your, family...:U

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This is why Festivus was invented! Festivus - Wikipedia

Specifically, there is Airing_of_Grievances and Feats_of_Strength

This lets the wind out of a lot of peoples sails :)

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Originally Posted by GraemeCook

Not quite true. Bush served the maximum allowable two terms of four years.

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Quite right Graeme. I should have said it was the Republicans who failed to get their nominee elected following Dubbya, probably as a result of his poor performance. I stand corrected. Pete

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Originally Posted by woodhutt

Quite right Graeme. I should have said it was the Republicans who failed to get their nominee elected following Dubbya, probably as a result of his poor performance. I stand corrected. Pete

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Pete, that was John McCain and I think he would have made a good president - like Romney he was a decent human being. I suspect it was his running mate that did a lot of damage to the campaign - Sarah Palin came across as an airhead. AND they were up against Obama & Biden who got 53% of the vote and 365/538 college votes (those figures were reduced slightly in 2012 against Romney).

One thing I remember about McCain was that at a rally, one of his supporters started slagging off Obama, and he said "I won't have that M'am, he's a good man."

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Originally Posted by Greg Ward

Don't know if any of you have seen the ABC comedy skit on corona virus armchair experts, their degree gained in 2 days from a study of Wikipedia, their knowledge broad and their competence unalloyed.
Worth a look

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Here it is. Select the Thursday 9/4/2020 episode. It's near the end and starts at 29min.

7.30 : ABC iview!

And, yes, very funny!

This 30sec clip presents the argument for distancing very succinctly, I thought.


YouTube

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Originally Posted by NeilS

This 30sec clip presents the argument for distancing very succinctly, ....

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Or "... Madam, if you can smell the phart then you are standing too damn close."

The thing I’ve found with this forum, after becoming more active and interested in the past few months, is that there’s no compulsion to read anything, unlike social media platforms like Facebook, which decide for you what posts you see, which is one reason why I deleted it. If you don’t want to read a thread here, simply don’t, there’s plenty of others to read through, and almost 20 years of past threads and other information to look at. What I do like, is that when you ask a question for information, there’s a great range of scope of different experience coming back in the answers, sometimes the most obvious and sensible things come from people who are relatively new to the whole hobby(?) and the forum. I like the fact that newbies are welcomed in and treated with respect, after all, we all had to start somewhere, whether it was last week or, like me, when I was old enough to walk.
Everyone stay safe and enjoy the camaraderie we have here, it’s quite unique. Peter.

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Originally Posted by GraemeCook

Or "... Madam, if you can smell the phart then you are standing too damn close."

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I note that Fence Furniture has requested pix for this post. Hopefully "Madam" is easy on the eye. As to the offending flatulence, I think it will be difficult in pix to capture the essence.

Regards
Paul

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Originally Posted by Bushmiller

As to the offending flatulence, I think it will be difficult in pix to capture the essence.

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Not if you have a cigarette lighter handy.

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Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

Not if you have a cigarette lighter handy.

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Now that would be an emission worth a pic request.

Regards
Paul

Today's spreadsheet attached.

Points to note:

• USA will go to the top of the deaths list some time today - 500 more will send them past Italy
• Australia is at the bottom of the 3 day gain in cases :2tsup: ignoring China & S.Korea (been at it for much longer), and ignoring 7 new entrants with no previous data
• Australia's death rate is approaching 1% (expected, takes a few weeks to die), but still almost at the bottom of the list
• Australia has slipped down from 22 to 26 in total # cases
• 6 European countries all have death rates over 10% (Italy, UK, Belgium, Netherlands, France, Spain)
• Europe has 68% of the world's deaths, USA 18%, leaving the rest of the world accounting for 14%
• Europe has 48% of the world's cases, USA 29%, rest of the world 23%
• American countries have very high 3 day gains in deaths (Canada, Ecuador, Brazil, Mexico, Chile, USA)
• 51 countries, accounting for 71% of world pop, have 2000+ cases

There will not be much that is new in the following article for those who have been following this thread, but posted here as it puts pay to any assertion that any country wasn't forewarned about the need to prepare for a respiratory pandemic.

Jennifer Nuzzo: “We’re Definitely Not Overreacting” to COVID-19

Nuzzo was the lead author on the report released three months before the first reported Covid-19 case. At just 75 pages long (without the long reference list), it's not a difficult read and should have been understood and acted upon by any government that thought it applied to them.

Preparedness for a High-Impact Respiratory Pathogen Pandemic

Evidently the US has thought preparation for such pandemics is not such a priority for them, closing its 'global pandemic response' unit of the National Security Committee in May 2018 and disbandoning the companion unit in the Department of Homeland Security the moth before. Neither the NSC nor DHS epidemic teams have been replaced a such, but according to this fact check some staff were reassigned.

The Global Health Security Index gave Australia a rating of 75.5 for preparedness in 2019, 4th out of 195 countries. But, some of the countries with even higher ratings have not done so well (so far). As Nuzzo explains,

"the overarching finding of our study was that no country is fully prepared. This has not been misinterpreted. But, if you just look at the scores, the United States comes out on top. Clearly, just given current experiences, there is no evidence that the United States is the most prepared. We are way behind other countries on a number of fronts. And even though the president held up our index at a press conference and said, “Look, you know, Johns Hopkins found that the U.S. is prepared,” that’s actually not what we found. What we found was that no country is fully prepared, and many countries have deficit in their health systems. That is very much playing out across the globe right now."

The warning about the availability of a vaccine when found and fully tested in the volumes required for broad community immunization is sobering.

"I think vaccines are not going to be a realistic solution for years. The 12-to-18 month timeline that you’ve likely heard assumes that the science works in our favor. But it will take years to get the quantities that we need. I don’t see vaccines being a viable solution for a long time."

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Originally Posted by FenceFurniture

Not if you have a cigarette lighter handy.

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That reminds me of a mate whose bench was in line of sight of the foreman and would occasionally light one.
The look on the boss’s face brought nearly as big a laugh as the incendiary display.
H.

c1978 my father didn't believe me when I said they were flammable.:firedevil:

It was evening.
"Righto Dad, you operate the light switch, and I'll operate the lighter".

BOOM! Seriously....best one ever....spectacular display in a darkened room.
:ft:


Dad dissolved to the floor with laughter and surprise.

This little number chugging ever upward makes the whole "100k dead" thing seem all rather trivial....

World Population Clock: Daily Births - Worldometer

We are a plague:

World Population Clock: growth