We Need To Make A Stand

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2nd August 2007, 02:21 PM
Cliff Rogers

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bleedin Thumb

......come on Cliff make yourself useful and refresh my memory.

I can't find it in the script.... I think you made it up. (or remembered it from Kingswood Country :D )
2nd August 2007, 02:21 PM
Sebastiaan56

The meek dont want it,

Sebastiaan
2nd August 2007, 02:23 PM
Cliff Rogers

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grunt

Is it Friday already?

Almost I'd say. :rolleyes:
2nd August 2007, 02:23 PM
AlexS

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sebastiaan56

The meek dont want it,

Sebastiaan

So give it to the cheesemakers.
2nd August 2007, 02:24 PM
Ruddigar

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grunt

Is it Friday already?

What happens on Friday? :? :?
2nd August 2007, 02:25 PM
silentC

Quote:

why not people are free to change their minds

OK, well let us know how you go with your evangelism :wink:

Quote:

too much quiet respect

It's not so much that religion is given too much respect (in fact it's quite the opposite I reckon) it's that the debates inevitably become heated and it all comes down to a person's right to believe what they want. I'm all for it personally, I agree 100% that too much religious interference in day to day life is a bad thing.

Quote:

how exactly ?

Because an atheist has no more proof that god does not exist (or is dead) than a theist does that he exists (or is alive). So making absolute statements one way or the other without proof is, to me, illogical. It's like saying "there is/is not life on other planets" rather than "there could be life on other planets".
2nd August 2007, 02:34 PM
Ruddigar

Quote:

Originally Posted by silentC

Because an atheist has no more proof that god does not exist (or is dead) than a theist does that he exists (or is alive). So making absolute statements one way or the other without proof is, to me, illogical. It's like saying "there is/is not life on other planets" rather than "there could be life on other planets".

:?
I'm confused. Is there life on other planets or not?

Don't theoretise (new word?) this time, Darren. Just a simple answer. Life on other planets: Yes or No?
:?
2nd August 2007, 02:35 PM
Grunt

God is a 6000' tall Red Jelly Bean.
2nd August 2007, 02:36 PM
silentC

Quote:

Is there life on other planets or not?

I don't know. Do you? :p

I've met a few people who seem to be from another planet, so it could be true.
2nd August 2007, 02:37 PM
Grunt

Quote:

Life on other planets: Yes or No?

The answer is maybe. We will never have a definitive 'No'. We might have a definitive 'Yes'.
2nd August 2007, 02:40 PM
Cliff Rogers

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ruddigar

...Don't theoretise (new word?) this time, Darren. Just a simple answer. ....

Uh oh.... I smell a petard... look out for your hoist!!!
2nd August 2007, 02:41 PM
Wongo

God is in jail.

That’s where Paris Hilton found him.
2nd August 2007, 02:44 PM
Ruddigar

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grunt

God is a 6000' tall Red Jelly Bean.

Pish. The closest thing we have to a God is the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Surely you've been touched by his noodly appendage?
2nd August 2007, 02:48 PM
Cliff Rogers

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ruddigar

....Surely you've been touched by his noodly appendage?

I use a spoon.
2nd August 2007, 02:49 PM
Gra

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wongo

God is in jail.

That’s where Paris Hilton found him.

didn't know he was lost....

He seems a bit like Wally, everyone seems to be finding him all over the place
2nd August 2007, 02:53 PM
Gra

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cliff Rogers

I use a spoon.

oh no Cliff is THE FLEA
2nd August 2007, 02:59 PM
Brown Dog

Quote:

Originally Posted by silentC

OK, well let us know how you go with your evangelism :wink:

edit: I dont think evangelism is the correct word to decribe my argument I have said nothing in relation to the the gospel and its teachings.

I prefer to think of it as consciousness raising...as I said before :wink:

It's not so much that religion is given too much respect (in fact it's quite the opposite I reckon) it's that the debates inevitably become heated and it all comes down to a person's right to believe what they want. I'm all for it personally, I agree 100% that too much religious interference in day to day life is a bad thing.

with that point Im not debating a persons right to belief in anything....just (as I have already said ) the right to debate and question that belief. Examples can be given where religion does get preferential treatment.

debates inevitably become heated

that applies to anything, its not just religion specific as we have seen from the great sharpening debate :wink: . I certainly have no intention of becoming heated :) . Its all just in good fun

Because an atheist has no more proof that god does not exist (or is dead) than a theist does that he exists (or is alive). So making absolute statements one way or the other without proof is, to me, illogical. ".

Proof is such a finite word....I prefer evidence. It might be symantics to some, but in my argument it is important. I never said I have proof that god does not exist...I said evidence points too or is more on the side of, ie more probable that he doesnt. As an agnostic you sit on the fence, as a confessed athiest I stand on the side of the fence that currently has the most evidence. When or if the evidence swings the other way I will believe in a creationist god. My beliefs are by no means what could be called fundamentaly athiest....I have already admitted that by saying I agree there is no conclusive proof god does not exist, without that proof I cant definitivley say there is no god, I believe no one can

It's like saying "there is/is not life on other planets" rather than "there could be life on other planets

On that point I am agnostic :D :rolleyes:

who said religion cant be argued logically
2nd August 2007, 03:05 PM
silentC

Then you are a 'weak atheist' which is more like an agnostic than a 'strong atheist'. A strong atheist denies the existence of god/s.

Evidence is not proof. You cannot say this is because I have evidence. You can use the evidence to attempt to prove or disprove your hypothesis. There is evidence for god, there is evidence against. I find the evidence against more compelling but there is no proof (nor do I believe there ever can be). You can call that sitting on the fence if you want, but I wont be compelled to make a decision one way or the other.
2nd August 2007, 03:06 PM
Bleedin Thumb

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cliff Rogers

I can't find it in the script.... I think you made it up. (or remembered it from Kingswood Country :D )

No I looked it up and couldn't find either...Looks like it must have been Ted.:(

And also if there is not life on other planets who the hell was driving that flying saucer?
2nd August 2007, 03:12 PM
Ruddigar

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brown Dog

IMO religion gets a little to much quiet respect. Whats wrong with asking questions ? and debating the answers you are given ?

I also dont see how respectful debate is against the rules.

'Snot the debate that's against the rules. It's the subject matter that ruffles a few feathers.

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com...ad.php?t=11512
2nd August 2007, 03:13 PM
Ruddigar

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bleedin Thumb

And also if there is not life on other planets who the hell was driving that flying saucer?

funkychicken :D :D
2nd August 2007, 03:13 PM
silentC

The way I see it, the whole debate is pointless because what you are asking a religious person to do is to forgoe the very thing that makes them religious, which is the faith that their invisible friend does exist. And what they are asking you to do is to accept that he exists. Neither of those things is going to happen. All the debate about the truth of the bible, the age of the earth, evolution vs creationism that is used to try to win the argument would crumble away if you remove the idea of faith. Without faith, there is no longer anything to argue about.

I find it amusing that you have creationists trying to find evidence to counter evolutionist theory, Trying to use science against itself. Science would drop evolution theory like a hot potato if someone came up with something better. It still doesn't prove the existence of god.

And vice versa. Say you could prove that the bible was actually complete fiction. Do you think that would bring an end to christianity?
2nd August 2007, 03:23 PM
Zed

Too many greenies to hand out in this thread.

I quite like Douglas Adams take on religion Ie the bit where he indicates that without faith god is nothing, and proof belies faith thus if you get proof it negates faith and removes the need for faith therefore god cant exist and thus vanishes in a puff of logic. or some such thing...

I love it. He must a spent some time navel contemplating over that one...

all th god botherers should keep it to themselves, there'd be less war and swearing at the front door.

Anyone watch that show on SBS about the freak Mormon polygamists ? I wonder how truthful that is... surely they cant be THAT good looking, I imagine polygamy is so ugly people can get married but at least the spouse doesnt have to shag an ugly person too much due to having to spread themselves around...
see my auto signature...
2nd August 2007, 03:34 PM
Brown Dog

Quote:

Originally Posted by silentC

Then you are a 'weak atheist' which is more like an agnostic than a 'strong atheist'. A strong atheist denies the existence of god/s.

You can call it what ever you want. But I agree there are levels to theism and atheism. In fact Dawkins (who I agree with) suggest there are 7 levels or spectrum of possiblities

1. strong theist 100% pobability of god

2.Very high prob. but short of 100% ie " I stongly believe in God but cant be certain. I live my life on the assumption that he is there"

3. Higher than 50% but not much....technically agnostic but leaning towards theism ie "Im very uncertain but im inclined to believe in God.

4 50 50 "gods existance and non-existance are equally fesible"

5. less than 50% technically agnostic but leaning toward atheism

6. Very low probability, but short of 0% ie "God is very improbable and I live my life on the assumption that he is not"

7. Stong atheist "I know there is no God"

I would call my self a 6 leaning towards 7...so on the scale of things I wouldnt call it "weak" maybe more defacto Atheist :)

Evidence is not proof. You cannot say this is because I have evidence.

Why not, isnt that how court cases are decided every day...why cant I apply the same logic to the religion debate ?

There is evidence for god,
What evidence ?
I dispute that there is any evidence for God. Hence my atheistic stance
.
2nd August 2007, 03:38 PM
MurrayD99

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ruddigar

What happens on Friday? :? :?

Friday is the day each week 'pon which the meaning of life is explored. Yer'll need a password and a creative mind.... (no, no pun; well...):2tsup:
2nd August 2007, 03:44 PM
Gra

A monkey and a dog arguing religion, this is a good day
2nd August 2007, 03:45 PM
Ruddigar

Quote:

Originally Posted by MurrayD99

Friday is the day each week 'pon which the meaning of life is explored. Yer'll need a password and a creative mind.... (no, no pun; well...):2tsup:

Sounds to me like a bunch of idiots with too much time on their hands.

:p
2nd August 2007, 03:46 PM
MurrayD99

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ruddigar

Sounds to me like a bunch of idiots with too much time on their hands.

:p

Freaks, actually. Freaks. That is what some say.:C It's hurtful.
2nd August 2007, 03:49 PM
bitingmidge

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brown Dog or is it silentC, I'm confused!

There is evidence for god,
What evidence ?
I dispute that there is any evidence for God. Hence my atheistic stance

I once heard James Morrison (yes, the trumpet player) and well known explainer of things, say that he has a feeling that the more difficult things are to understand the more important they are. He used the examples of (in increasing degrees of perplexity), electricity, love, God.

Perhaps he had a point.

On the other had Douglas Adams had another take:

Quote:

There is a theory which states that if anyone discovers just exactly what the universe is for and why we are here, that it will instantly disappear and be replaced by something even more bizarre and inexplicable. Then there is a theory which states that this has already happened.

or

Now it is such a bizarrely improbably coincidence that anything so mindbogglingly useful [the Babel fish] could have evolved by chance that some thinkers have chosen to see it as a final and clinching proof of the non-existence of God.
The argument goes something like this: "I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing."
"But," says Man, "the Babel fish is a dead giveaway isn't it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own arguments, you don't. QED"
"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.

He hoped and prayed that there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction involved here and merely hoped that there wasn't an afterlife.

Hmmm...

P (resorting to quoting others)
:p :p
2nd August 2007, 03:51 PM
silentC

Quote:

You can call it what ever you want

They are not my terms.

Quote:

Why not, isnt that how court cases are decided every day...why cant I apply the same logic to the religion debate ?

Well, if evidence was proof, then all court cases would get a guilty verdict, would they not?

Quote:

I dispute that there is any evidence for God.

The fact that a very, very large number of people believe in him. Something makes them feel that way. There are documents saying that he exists. There are events which people say are evidence. Like I say, I am more in favour of the negative side.

If there is no evidence, then why are you not a 7?
2nd August 2007, 03:53 PM
Ruddigar

Quote:

Originally Posted by bitingmidge

He used the examples of (in increasing degrees of perplexity), electricity, love, God.

James Morrison never had to decide which table saw to buy under $2,000 did he......
2nd August 2007, 03:54 PM
Brown Dog

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ruddigar

'Snot the debate that's against the rules. It's the subject matter that ruffles a few feathers.

http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com...ad.php?t=11512

Thanks for that Ruddigar :).
... is the boss and he is right that there are problably better places to discuss these things. And of course I will cease and desist if my posts are not wanted or contributing in anyway. I guess it is inevitable that dicussions on this topic so often lead to heads becoming hot :rolleyes: . I just think it is a sad that a theist and an atheist cant have a pleasant, freindly and interesting debate about their beliefs( by that I dont mean just this forum but in general)

cheers
BD:2tsup:
2nd August 2007, 04:03 PM
Andy Mac

A truly wonderous discussion is taking place here, and I'm starting to get the point...
This you say, is indeed god-like, therefore there is a God?
2nd August 2007, 04:04 PM
Gra

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy Mac

A truly wonderous discussion is taking place here, and I'm starting to get the point...
This you say, is indeed god-like, therefore there is a God?

All hail the great and hairy god
2nd August 2007, 04:06 PM
MurrayD99

Does have a personalised plate then?
2nd August 2007, 04:07 PM
Ruddigar

A X E - M A N
2nd August 2007, 04:09 PM
Gra

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ruddigar

Axe-man

You would want to spell that one correct, or you may end up in a Seinfeld episode
2nd August 2007, 04:09 PM
Cliff Rogers

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brown Dog

Thanks for that Ruddigar :). ....

Ignore him, he is a stirrer. :D

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andy Mac

....This you say, is indeed god-like, ...

Picture the biggest.... ugliest... hairiest.... Kindergarten teacher you could ever imagine. :D
2nd August 2007, 04:10 PM
Gra

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cliff Rogers

Picture the biggest.... ugliest... hairiest.... Kindergarten teacher you could ever imagine. :D

So you have met my wife then:U:U
2nd August 2007, 04:10 PM
Ruddigar

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cliff Rogers

Picture the biggest.... ugliest... hairiest.... Kindergarten teacher you could ever imagine. :D

is really Mrs Godfrey!? :oo:

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