The Australian ID Card

Nobody is contemplating the whatifs, what if an extreme roght-wing government gets in (is concieveable with the way spin doctorsdoctor things)
Whatif a large multi-national concern gets a contract to administrate such things, remember computers don't use this information people do, people with the same greedy, small-mindeness, and avarious ways that we see everyday in all walks, look at AWB fer chris' sake. Nah even if it was for real (it's not, look at what else is being put throught the senate atm, it's exactly the same paths that all past facists regimes and so-called "communist" represives have taken as Grunt boy stated, he's one smart pooch that.
It's dangerous to put your life in politicians or even the law enforcement (sorry Dan, but we both know it's true) agencies hands, cause they are only made up of people, same as us not super-ethical, but normal Blokes & Blokettes who will use any argument to justify an action.

Sorry this is not conjecture as I remember being a non- influential teenage union member in QLD during the JOH years, and while not ever proven it is highly suspected that members of the government and other authorities had people "disappeared" if they could be a problem. Check the newspaper articles from the time then the royal commission stuff.

Civil Liberterians are not anything more than people who have the conviction to stand up and fight for what they consider to be morally& ethically correct, they put themselves and their livlihoods in jeopardy everytime they publicly denounce popular opinion, can we say the same?

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Originally Posted by E. maculata

Civil Liberterians are not anything more than people who have the conviction to stand up and fight for what they consider to be morally& ethically correct, they put themselves and their livlihoods in jeopardy everytime they publicly denounce popular opinion, can we say the same?

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Well said Bruce.

I don't know. I tend towards the conservative side of things. I'm in favour of a tough stance on crime, terrorism, illegal immigration etc. I'm not without compassion and I'm a bit sceptical that any government ever has our best interests at heart.

However, I do believe that a lot of the problems we are facing at the moment are occuring because we have gone soft on a number of things. A crack down is required every now and then to put things back on an even kilter. I doubt that an ID card is going to help at all in that regard though, for many of the reasons mentioned above. Neither can I see that it will be a tremendous invasion of our civil liberties.

If you earn an income (legally) they already know who you are. If you don't you probably have a social security number. I can't see an ID card being any more revealing than these two things. Whether a future government might or might not abuse it at some point in the future is speculation. Perhaps they might - is that enough reason to kybosh the idea? I suppose there are a great many things that a future fascist dictatorship might use against us - including the defence force and the police.

At the end of the day, there are pros and cons. Perhaps the potential cons outweigh the known pros?

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I have not yet and don't think I will hear a sensible and coherent argument against the ID card.

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Cost.

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Think how much easier it would be if a natural disaster such as the tsunami were to hit, to identify people killed. Or car accidents, or any number of things.

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I am no more likely to be carrying my ID card than I am my drivers licence. Invalid argument.

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Those who say that civil liberties are curtailed by an ID card are idiots (as are all civil libertarians).

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Invalid argument - Emotional.

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The only people with something to fear from being identified are those who deserve to have their liberties removed.

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My g...d. This from authority. NO wonder we are worried.

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If you do nothing wrong, you will never have your DNA see the light of day.

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Until the Gov has a new interest in it. (disease profiling. Reduce pensioners.

Generally, so-far, there is NO valid argument in favour of a card that justifies the cost.

Please provide valid arguments. No emotions.

1. Identify terrorists - Invalid. Terrorists use their real ID.

2. Identify the dead and injured in a disaster. Invalid. Card may not be on owner. Still have to do all tests. ps How many times would this be required???

3 Identify victims of crime. Invalid see 2.

4 Identify illegal immigrant workers. Valid but at what cost.$

Regarding civil libertarians, I think there is a rabid ratbag element there but it's like everything else - you need a balance and these guys are there to oppose the hardliners at the other end of the spectrum. Somewhere in the middle, we should have enough control to be secure and enough freedom to be happy.

Except for that guy on the pedestrian council (Harold Scrooby). We could do without him. :rolleyes:

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However, I do believe that a lot of the problems we are facing at the moment are occuring because we have gone soft on a number of things.

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I believe a lot of our problems are due to certain decisions that our govenment made in blindly following the U.S.

Canada which is demographically close to Australia does not have a problem with terrorism.

I wasn't really thinking of terrorism. I don't believe we have a problem with terrorism in this country either. There have been one or two bombs over the years and some people accused of planning things. No-one has attempted to run a container ship into the Opera House or anything yet though.

I was thinking more about crime, gang related violence and so on. You know, boring day to day stuff.

I say no. We have enough in the way of cards to carry around to prove or disprove who we are, and all of them are open to forgery anyway. A bit the like saying that by banning all firearms less people will be shot...maybe by law abiding folk, but the criminal element will still obtain one. Does any learned forum member know the stats on firearm-related crime before and after the nationwide ban on firearms? My bet is it hasn't changed a thing.

Cheers,

[quote=silentC]

If you earn an income (legally) they already know who you are. If you don't you probably have a social security number. I can't see an ID card being any more revealing than these two things.

Why do they want it then?

I'd make two points, firstly it is a lot easier to lose a right or a freedom than to re-gain one. Anyone fancy their chances of getting rid of the ID card if it is abused?

Secondly, whats the rationale? Anti-Terrorism? Oh please! Remember Hawke's attempt to introduce the Australia card? As if an ID card would make any impact on terrorism. Would the 'occupation' field say 'loony, rag-head suicide bomber'?

I think this is just another factor in Government getting bigger and wanting more control over the punters. We are already atrociously over regulated in OZ. Having to carry and produce an ID card is just another freedom out the window and another intrusion by the Government - left or right - they all want more power.

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Why do they want it then?

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I don't know and don't pretend to. If I was to hazard a guess, I would say that someone in the public service has been waiting for a good opportunity to dust the idea off and try again. They probably have entirely different reasons for wanting it to what most people are assuming here.

Still on the fence. Don't care if they do or they don't.

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Originally Posted by AlexS

Well, perhaps it wouldn't worry me if I was sure we had a law abiding government.

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Of course we do! Remember who makes or repeals the laws?....

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Originally Posted by Grunt

Nazi Germany, Russia

.

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That's grasping at stwas. Hardly good examples - they've gone. Got any in a in a democratic country like ours.

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Originally Posted by Grunt

I believe a lot of our problems are due to certain decisions that our govenment made in blindly following the U.S.

Canada which is demographically close to Australia does not have a problem with terrorism.

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Mate, if you think terroists would leave us alone if we didn't go into Afghanistan or Iraq with the US, then you are dreaming. They want ALL western civilisation gone! The left wings, the greenies, the do-gooders and the far right. The lot. To them we are infidels and nothing more than pond scum. You have to stop them somewhere. Better over there than here.

All this civil rights stuff just leaves loopholes for people who want to do harm to us to jump through. They must be absolutley pissing themselves laughing.

<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

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And by the way, Nazi Germany and the old Russian communist state have gone. In case you hadn't noticed.

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Yes, but it was quite unpleasant for some while they were going on.

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Mate, if you think terroists would leave us alone if we didn't go into Afghanistan or Iraq with the US, then you are dreaming. They want ALL western civilisation gone! The left wings, the greenies, the do-gooders and the far right. The lot. To them we are infidels and nothing more than pond scum. You have to stop them somewhere. Better over there than here.

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Explain why Canada doesn't have the same concerns and out and out threats on terrorism that we do.

If you want a reason try about $700.00 to $800.00 per man women and child covered by the system plus ongoing costs and business compliance costs.

ie Less tools, more tax.

Do a proper cost analysis and I will follow the outcome.

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Originally Posted by Grunt

Canada which is demographically close to Australia does not have a problem with terrorism.

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Hail the mighty Grunt, He's in the zone today, Grunt for P.M.:D
I've always found Kiwis, Aussies, the Irish, Scots and Canadians to be very similar peoples, I've known and worked with quite a few and the comraderies is almost instant, however many others have disturbed me as I fear that which I cannot comprehend.

G'day,

Can I wade in here again and say some of the posts are getting a bit personal by way of attacks against fellow woodies. :(

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Originally Posted by Grunt

Explain why Canada doesn't have the same concerns and out and out threats on terrorism that we do.

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please show me where you get the information that Canada doesn't have concerns about terrorism.

Have you flown in there lately ?

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Originally Posted by Waldo

G'day,

Can I wade in here again and say some of the posts are getting a bit personal by way of attacks against fellow woodies. :(

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Chris, don't mistake good debate for personal attacks. that's not we are on about here.

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Originally Posted by DanP

I have not yet and don't think I will hear a sensible and coherent argument against the ID card.

I have been saying for years that we should have an ID card that everyone over 15 years old has to carry. Think how much easier it would be if a natural disaster such as the tsunami were to hit, to identify people killed. Or car accidents, or any number of things. Those who say that civil liberties are curtailed by an ID card are idiots (as are all civil libertarians).

But then I also say the same of DNA. Everyone should be DNA profiled at about 2 years of age and their DNA filed. You could even put the DNA profile in code on the ID card. Added security.

The only people with something to fear from being identified are those who deserve to have their liberties removed. If you do nothing wrong, you will never have your DNA see the light of day. I see DNA profiling as a bigger deterrent to hideous sex crimes and offenders than the poxy sentences handed down by judges. If someone is caught after they are profiled then they obviously have to be removed from the community and locked up forever, because they obviously can't help themselves.

Dan

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Dan,

I broadly agree with everything that you've said.

As well, there is the small (not!) matter of having linked medical records which such a system would facilitate. Currently, there is very little (if any) linkage between the records of any given person and the various GPs and/or specialists/hospitals/clinics that they might have presented to.

In a previous life I was with an IT consulting firm, doing a lot of work with NSW, Vic, Qld, etc Health Authorities and various organisational subdivisions - and the issue of a coherent linkage was always present, but unresolvable because of current privacy laws. This represents an annual waste of billions of $, and regrettably often less than ideally effective treatment.

As an aside, I note that the National ID system being championed in the UK by messrs Blair & co has fallen foul of the House of Lords.

I don't know why people have such an anti-ID fixation. Virtually every European (mainland) country has had one for really quite some time.

We are all members of a society, and as such should be quite willing to be identifiable individuals in that society.

Hops off barrel and heads for a cold one:p

G'day Gumby,

I know but it's a losing battle those for and against. :)

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Originally Posted by Gumby

That's grasping at stwas. Hardly good examples - they've gone. Got any in a in a democratic country like ours.

Rebutal
Actually pre-war germany was a democratic country, Adolf was elected by due process as a "national socialist". The good people of germany many of them years later after armistice stated they didn't believe he would use his powers, or they didn't realise what was at stake



.

All this civil rights stuff just leaves loopholes for people who want to do harm to us to jump through. They must be absolutley pissing themselves laughing.

I believe you are a small business person, it's not state owned is it?, could be forfeit to the state if you break certain laws, like not carrying you ID in the future, couldn't it? I don't often trot this out as patriotism is usually the last argument for those who can find no justification in their actions, but I believe our grandads fought pretty hard for the freedoms their children and us to a lesser degree enjoyed, now some want to through alot of that away for what?, how long did the IRA & England belt each other and did the Poms resort to this cwap.

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Confusion is the name of this game.

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Originally Posted by Gumby

Mate, if you think terroists would leave us alone if we didn't go into Afghanistan or Iraq with the US, then you are dreaming. They want ALL western civilisation gone! The left wings, the greenies, the do-gooders and the far right. The lot. To them we are infidels and nothing more than pond scum. You have to stop them somewhere. Better over there than here.

.

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Your right. the biggest act of terrorism againsed australia was the bali bombings and amrossi told the court his main issue with australia was our involvment in east timore. it had nothing to do with our involment with america or afghanistan or iraq.

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Originally Posted by E. maculata

Confusion is the name of this game.

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Bruce, things change. If it means we have to give up some freedoms which as you rightly said were hard fought, then so be it. We have to win this war, and that's what we are in. Like it or not. If you take the Germany example, people waited way too long to confront Hitler. France and England both thought they were safe. Remember Chamberlain - peace in our time. No, hit them now. Not later. If they get the bomb..........or if they had it now. Can you imagine the world if the rougue middle eastern states had the power the US has. Good night Charlie, we wouldn't be here now.

It's just that I do not share the view that governments can't be trusted and we'll end up in some controlled state. I agree with Dan, we should have a DNA register as well. The badies would suffer, not us.

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Originally Posted by redwood

Your right. the biggest act of terrorism againsed australia was the bali bombings and amrossi told the court his main issue with australia was our involvment in east timore. it had nothing to do with our involment with america or afghanistan or iraq.

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Some consider Amrossi, a bumbling fool who took a fair amount of the rap.

A refresher in terrorism on Aussie soil, everyone seems to have forgotten

http://www.abc.net.au/gnt/history/Tr...s/s1202891.htm

Old internet truism "as soon as Nazis are mentioned in a thread all hope of rational debate is lost..."

Well, true since the early '80s anyway.:rolleyes:

Look at is as a cost benefit amalysis.

Cost $15 billion - of our taxes

What exactly are the benefits to us that are paying for it?

How exactly does it help in the fight against terrorism?

All those blokes that were picked up in Sydney and Melbourne a couple of months ago were Australian citizens for the most part.

How would them having an ID card have stopped their alleged plotting?

Actually I agree with Bruce in that it's largely a smoke screen. Especially with all this AWB stuff that's going on at the moment.

I don't believe either side of this debate is arguing that terrorism isn't prevailent, or a "real & present danger", we're debating whether an Identification card is a apt step to take to counter this likely threat to our way of life. Therein lays the problem, "papers" to be carried at all times smacks of repression to me, panicking and not keeping our unique "aussieness" throughout this period is a huge issue. When we come out the other side of these current troubles, will we be proud of our stoic nature as individuals & a nation or will we be snivelling cowards and asquiesce to whatever our drama queen, fearfully scared leaders want, what freedoms will we have traded away with no effect, never to be regianed again, or worse still our grandkids grow up in an Australia that our grandparents would be ashamed of.

I probably am one of those left wing bleeding heart civil liberterians, actually no secret I am:D .

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Originally Posted by Canadian Justice Department

4.3 Level of Threat to Canada

Participants were divided on the issue of whether the risk of a terrorist attack in Canada is increasing. On one hand, there is no hard evidence in the public domain indicating a higher level of risk since 9/11. On the other hand, Canada's involvement in Afghanistan was viewed as increasing the threat to Canadian troops. Also, while several participants stated that Canada is not a primary target, more attacks have been unleashed recently against "soft" targets. Whitaker notes that the recent targeting by Al-Qaeda and associated groups of softer targets such as Bali, Morocco, Saudi Arabia, and Turkey ought to be a warning for Canada. Also opportunistic attacks on soft targets could threaten Canada. Furthermore, Brynen notes that neutrality may be less of a protection than in the past as UN and humanitarian personnel have been attacked in Iraq and Afghanistan. Charters notes that several individuals with Canadian backgrounds and possible connections to Al-Qaeda have been captured, arrested, or detained here or overseas and some remain at large. Some of those detained have eventually been released owing to lack of evidence. He adds: "None of this makes Canada a 'haven for terrorists' or a primary target for attack. But it introduces an element of doubt about its immunity from terrorism."
Martyn adds that greater access to information increases the potential for the use of more destructive weapons, such as chemical and biological weapons. The scarcity of these weapons, however, makes it less likely they will be used against Canadian targets.
Wark asserts that public statements by CSIS indicate a "significant terrorist presence" in Canada. That presence can include fund-raising and other activities that might not be related to attacks on Canada. It would be imprudent to assume that we are immune from attacks. Canada may not be a first tier target but the risks increase as transnational groups seek new bases and targets. Stribopoulos believes that Canadian interests overseas are at greatest risk. Attacks in North America are likely to be launched against the US.

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They don't believe that they are a primary target. Plainly we are.

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Grunt for P.M.:D

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I'd never make PM because I am not very good a lying and I have ethics.

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Originally Posted by Grunt

They don't believe that they are a primary target. Plainly we are.

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So now we are defing primary and non primary targets. That's not what you said earlier.

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Originally Posted by Grunt

T
I'd never make PM because I am not very good a lying and I have ethics.

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That is a very sad outlook to have.

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Originally Posted by E. maculata

... we're debating whether an Identification card is a apt step to take to counter this likely threat to our way of life.

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what he actually said was "A lot of other countries have ID cards , and with the changing times, international terrorism etc do we need ID cards or can we stay the same as we are.", which is not the same thing. terrorism was only part of the question. There is a greater need for a unique identification method for other reasons - health, legal, financial, gov't benefits etc.

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Originally Posted by E. maculata

Therein lays the problem, "papers" to be carried at all times smacks of repression to me, panicking and not keeping our unique "aussieness" throughout this period is a huge issue. When we come out the other side of these current troubles, will we be proud of our stoic nature as individuals & a nation or will we be snivelling cowards and asquiesce to whatever our drama queen, fearfully scared leaders want, what freedoms will we have traded away with no effect, never to be regianed again, or worse still our grandkids grow up in an Australia that our grandparents would be ashamed of.

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That's a bit emotive and unfair don't you think? You claim to be a libertarian, but label those with opposing views as "snivelling cowards". Maybe, just maybe, sometime in the future there is a tiny, slim, possibility they'll say "it was a wise move". We have had identification documents before, and they did go away once they were no longer necessary.

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Originally Posted by E. maculata

I probably am one of those left wing bleeding heart civil liberterians, actually no secret I am:D .

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Not that there's anything wrong with that...

Groggy, problem with just written word, it doesn't convey the full message, I don't mean anyone whom opposed my view is a snivelling coward, although I do believe anyone who doesn't take a real interest in our countries actions may qualify, you know the type doesn't watch any news, reads only the sports section, doesn't attend any meetings, hates the abc, wouldn't know his local member if he fell over them yet somehow still KNOWS everything about what ails the country and how to fix it, probably just as infuriating is those whom blindly believe either side of politics without questioning the motives. I don't think (in itself a truism) that many here would fall into those categories, for just to read this thread implies interest and a questing mind.

I thought we were supposed to improve societies freedoms not repeat historical mistakes, no matter whom wants to terrorise us and definitely not head down any sort of Orwellian path.

Thanks for the clarification. I won't be commenting further.

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Originally Posted by E. maculata

the type doesn't watch any news, reads only the sports section, doesn't attend any meetings, hates the abc, wouldn't know his local member if he fell over them yet somehow still KNOWS everything about what ails the country and how to fix it

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sounds like me:o

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That is a very sad outlook to have.

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Just a realist. Have a look at our current and recent past PMs. They'll do or say just about anything to stay in power. Use fear as a political tool.

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Originally Posted by Groggy

Thanks for the clarification. I won't be commenting further.

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Me either. It's a no win situation all round. There's no value in continuing. We've all had our say. Let's all agree to disagree and get back to the bond that links us together - woodwork. ;)

I started this thread after seeing an item in the news saying an ID card was again on the political agenda

It will not stop terrorism international or domestic
It will not stop crime
It will not stop tax fraud
It will not stop crimes against children
It will not stop illegal immegrants,( coming to this country or working here)
It will not stop farting in church

However it may help authorities cut back on crimes etc
I would love to see an Australia where every one played the game by the rules, where every one paid their fair share of taxes, where the riots seen in sydney were stopped earlier or did not happen because police had the power and backing to stop such strife in the early stages
perhaps an ID card may have helped
On the other side of the arguement as has been previously said it is easier to loose a liberty than to regain one. and the cost, who knows

Does anyone here think that the cost of an ID card would be greater than politicans travel allounces for a five year period

The question comes down to what are we loosing , is there anyone out there who isn't on a medicard card , whats wrong with a card that is more difficult to forge that holds that information pluss a bit more
I personally cannot see a reason against the Aussi ID card Its not going to make the world or Australia right overnight but it may help to keep people in Australia less subject to fraud may make more pay the taxes they should and may help Police solve more crimes,

2 bob bet-

There will not be an aussie card and the current activity is a smoke screen to cover the new medicare smart card which will be released soon.

The new medicare card will become (given time) the Aussie card.

After doing a heap of googles on "New medicare card" and "ID card australia";)

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It will not stop farting in church

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See, this is why I don't go to church.

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Originally Posted by Grunt

Excuse me for being cynical but I would expect law enforcment officers to want to have more power.
Are you going to arrest people for not carring one?
Maybe not today but as the government gets more paranoid, they'll instruct you do so in the future.

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I can arrest anyone who has committed ANY offence who fails to adequately identify themself. That will not change.

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Originally Posted by Grunt

A study of history will suggest that enforcing people to carry ids and the recent enactment of laws that diminish our civil liberties have a way of being turned around and used against us.

In the '70s, the Charlie Court government in WA enacted a law (54b) that made it illegal for groups of more than 3 people to congregate in public without a permit. It was designed to stop the Hari Krishnas from harassing people. 12 months later the the Court government used this law to instruct the police to arrest anyone who attended a union meeting.

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We still have laws for unlawful gatherings. We just have to find someone to say they are in fear of a gathering of three or more people and the offence is complete. It is normally only used in circumstances such as the race riots in Sydney.

There are a great many of our laws that could be interpreted in such a way that they were never intended to be used. It is usually the common sense of the police member that stops them from being misused.

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Originally Posted by Grunt

I must be a idiot then. :(

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:p


Dan

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Originally Posted by DavidG

Cost.

I am no more likely to be carrying my ID card than I am my drivers licence. Invalid argument.

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Then you commit an offence. You commit an offence by not carrying your licence.

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Originally Posted by DavidG

Invalid argument - Emotional.

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Rubbish. I'm still waiting to hear how your liberties will be affected by you carrying an ID card.

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Originally Posted by DavidG

My g...d. This from authority. NO wonder we are worried.

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Again I say that the only ones to worry about being identified are the criminals. I can't see how my saying this would make you worry. Be careful David, your anti authority bent is starting to show again.

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Originally Posted by DavidG

Until the Gov has a new interest in it. (disease profiling. Reduce pensioners.

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How would DNA reduce pensioners :confused:

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Originally Posted by DavidG

Generally, so-far, there is NO valid argument in favour of a card that justifies the cost.

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I believe that I have stated several very valid reasons.

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Originally Posted by DavidG

Please provide valid arguments. No emotions.

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I have not let any emotions cloud my judgment and I still say that all my arguments are valid.

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Originally Posted by DavidG

1. Identify terrorists - Invalid. Terrorists use their real ID.

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I never mentioned terrorists. I don't think that an ID card will do anything to the terrorists.

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Originally Posted by DavidG

2. Identify the dead and injured in a disaster. Invalid. Card may not be on owner. Still have to do all tests. ps How many times would this be required???

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The possibility of it happening would be enough to justify it. How would you feel if one of your loved ones was one of those killed in the tsunami and you had to wait for months while their body rotted in a shipping container waiting to be identified. If they had an ID card, they would have been identified, with a fingerprint compared to that on the card and sent home for a funeral. The time saved in identifying disaster victims makes it all worthwhile.

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Originally Posted by DavidG

3 Identify victims of crime. Invalid see 2.

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As per last response. However I was talking about identifying offenders who commit the types of crimes where DNA is almost always left behind. Again, consider if one of your kids was touched up by some filthy piece of crap, one had never been caught before. You would change your tune real quick if it meant the difference between your childs rapist being caught or not.

Dan