It's more like it's not illegal, rather than being legal. I think it may just be an oversight in the legislation. That said, and without wanting to start the whole debate again, I think there is a place for education and some form of limited occupier license, subject to inspection.
Mick
That's correct Silent. As long as you are deemed "COMPENTENT" you can do your own repairs on an appliance that has a plug on the end of the power lead.Quote:
Originally Posted by silentC
However, I wouldn't advise it.
Btw, does anyone have any idea how many people have died in the past year by carrying out this type of work?.
I haven't read about anyone dying because of it. A bit of a shock to me:rolleyes: :D.
Mick,
Ooopppss...did not see the original date of posting, being a new member will have to take more notice of these things!
Just for the point of discussion, if anybody has a formal electrical qualification from outside of eg. QLD, they can complete at TAFE a subject called "ELC-001 Electrical Installation, Inspection & Testing" as a 80hr subject partime. This will then able you to apply to the Electrical Safety Office to prove your competency and proof of previous work undertaken.
But getting through the QLD TAFE sysytem is a nightmare, anything from general questions or subjkects to gain "Contractors License" is almost impossible without being about. Good luck guys
Not wanting to throw fuel in the fire, but all these threads about certain death if you mess with anything 240V related?
Has anyone actually touched a live 240V wire ?
I know I have at least 4 or 5 times, starting when I was 10 and I'm here to tell the tale...I'm not talking about having feet in the bathtub and putting your fingers in the plug.
With the amount of miss information that goes around though I'm not surprised that people would kill themselves. Working with electricity is not dangerous (I'll get flamed for this) IF you have some basic understanding and follow simple basic rules.
As some else said, it's no more dangerous than having a DIY builder build a 2 meter high deck with a doggy fence.
I'd strongly agree with any kind of basic information (like what I was taught in high school in Europe) to educate people.
What ever you legislate or ban,people will always want to fix stuff themselves, besides has anyone actually tried to get a sparky out for a 20 second fix it job ?
Take care
Nic
Once upon a time... I wired in a new stove. It was as straightforward as could be, no upgrade etc, switch where it should be. Put the fuse back in and "nothing" Dead. Checked the wiring, felt real bad, wondered . Got drill to take back off again - drill dead..... Ohhhh, blown the house circuits and transformer have I? Walked down drive and started at transformer up the pole.... looked OK - they generally do. Felt terrible now - took the whole district down did I? Couple of hours later the power went on again... tree across line back towards the source (is there a "source" for volts, amps and watts?). Stove worked OK after that. Whew......
Nobody is saying that it's certain death to mess with 240v. We are saying that it is dangerous if you don't know what you are doing (or think you do, as a lot of people seem to). The funny thing about topics like this is that until you really delve into them (by which I mean go and study, get hands on) you probably don't realise how much there is to know and how much you actually don't.Quote:
all these threads about certain death if you mess with anything 240V related
I think you need more than basic understanding and basic rules to work with electricity. Anyone can wire a plug (but probably not to Australian standards as discussed a couple of pages earlier). But beyond that, you really need to know what you are doing - and as far as I'm concerned that goes beyond the basic instruction that you might have received in high school. I learned to wire a plug in high school too but it doesn't equip me to wire up a house.
Yes I have had a few kicks in my life, some my fault and some not. I'm still here too but there are plenty of people who are not. I don't think there is any debate at all that electric shock will kill you. You and I are lucky.
They r not hard wired anymore, havn't been for many years, all through an iso switch, another reason why anyone not in the game doesn't know the current regs, which I might add are not freely available, everything costs dollars and if your not part of the system your not contributing to the club, an elite club it is, you don't have to be smart or have any major degrees, just do the apprenticeship, conform and don't buck the rules, pay your fees, and your welcome, no outsiders allowed!.Quote:
Originally Posted by silentC
Plumbing is exactly the same......
Sounds like a gang ... I thought it was for safety ... :? :?Quote:
Originally Posted by lnt9000
Nic
Last floor standing electric stove I had installed was hardwired - no plug. That was about 11 years ago. I think the oven we put in the new place might have had a plug.Quote:
They r not hard wired anymore, havn't been for many years
The worst of it is that others can be injured instead. Let's say you wire in a cook-top, turn it on and it works. Does this mean that everything is hunky-dory? Well... let's further assume that someone else comes along a bit later, wipes down the benchtop with a damp rag and gets a nasty shock when they brush against the cooktop 'cos you mixed up earth & neutral.Quote:
Originally Posted by silentC
Still hunky-dory? No way! Fatal? Rarely. A bloody nasty thing to happen? Definitely! Not something I'd wish on a loved one...
Not to nit pick but if you ever have more than a few volts between earth and neutral you have some serious problem with your house wiring.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skew ChiDAMN!!
Back to the deck, imagine kids are playing and the barrier breaks and one of the kids falls and become paraplegic... Just as bad no ?
What I'm getting at is that there seems to be all this hocus pocus don't touch or you will probably die around electricity (and plumbing to a point) when in fact it's not more dangerous than many other activities we just do without thinking.
Look at the sharp/dangerous (jointer, shaper comes to mind) woodworking tools we have in our sheds, a child could turn a power tool on cut a big chunk of flesh out and bleed to death.. It's a stretch but not impossible.
Now imagine if there was a powerful woodworking union, that lobbied the gvt so all woodworking equipment could only be installed/used in registered business presimses by qualified people...
Nic
People aren't allowed to build their own hand rails either - they are supposed to be built by a licensed builder or owner builder and subject to approval - there are standards that must be followed to ensure they are safe and the builder is liable for the result of any negligence.Quote:
imagine kids are playing and the barrier breaks and one of the kids falls and become paraplegic
Not to take anything away froim what Silent C said, the problem with electricity is that there's generally no warnings. You can't see or smell it. A badly built handrail or stairs will be noticeable as will a leaky sewer and you can smell a gas leak. A dodgy bit of wiring that makes your sink live (and you dead) won't be. I'm a chippy by trade and it would be in my best interests,financially if carpentry was controlled to the same degree that electrical work is but I don't see the need. I'm quite confident in my ability to work with it and have done some electrical work (under supervision) but there's no way that I would rate the risks as equal.
Mick
If something is wired incorrectly it won't become dangerous after a settling in period, it will be alive and kicking, literally, from day one.
If in any doubt about live appliances just grab one of those little neon screwdrivers and touch it, if it lights up, don't touch.
I am not condoning amateur wiring but an earth leakage device can certainly negate a lot of the problems too, if the power snaps off every time you touch something, it is surely time to stop touching, and call in a sparky.
No warning I kind of agree, fuses blowing, breakers tripping, tingles when you touch apliances, brown outs are all signs, and you can measure the risk easily (using a volt meter) if you see a potential danger it won't hurt anyone as long as you don't touch it.Quote:
Originally Posted by journeyman Mick
Just for the record I wouldn't think it's wise for anyone to do anything with mains electricity if they don't at least have a reliable voltmeter/multimeter and know how to use it.
Nic
What exactly are you going to measure with a voltmeter Nic.Quote:
Originally Posted by nic
"If you see a potential danger it won't hurt anyone as long as you don't touch it" That's the whole point. You cannot see electricity.
Having a voltmeter does not make it ok to work on hard wired mains equipment.
And a stove wired through an isolating switch is still hard wired. Many new houses have stoves with high amperage plugs because the hard wired stoves were being stolen before the house was finished. Now the builder just plugs it in and hands over the keys.
Exactly, hence why you need at least one basic tool aka the voltmeter, without it how would you tell if there is any danger ?Quote:
Originally Posted by NCArcher
Once you have switched off mains how will you know if it's really off ? (voltmeter will tell you)
If you wire-up your stove how would you know if the carcass isn't at 240 V potential ? (voltmeter again)
In fact I can't think of a single thing you can't do without one, with gas you have you nose, plumbing well.. you get wet.
Nic
I take it Silent we are talking about wooden hand rails here?. Because it would be illegal to put up metal ones unless they are made by a certified welder:D.Quote:
Originally Posted by silentC
Why not use a volt stick before using a volt or multimeter. If it lights up - when it shouldn't - then you can further investigate with the above mention equipment.Quote:
Originally Posted by nic
Btw, when would one use the 10A (not fused) connection on a multimeter instead of the fused one?.
Cheers
MH
We have pretty strict licensing of building trades in Qld, but builders and owner builders may weld on their own jobs and those licensed as steel fabricators obviously can weld on any job. However, the welding must meet the relevant standards, not that most building inspectors could tell.Quote:
Originally Posted by Metal Head
Mick
But why should builders be any different?. Poor welds could result in a structure failing that could result in many deaths. Thus only those who have the revelant welding certificates should be allowed to weld anything structure wise including hand rails. What is good enough for electricians should be god enough or other trades.Quote:
Originally Posted by journeyman Mick
MH
A builder in Qld may carry out any work except those for which an occupational license is required:
HOWEVER, if you perform any building work within one of the following classes regardless of the value, you must hold the appropriate licence:
Plumbing and Drainage
Gasfitting
Building Design
Completed Residential Building Inspection
Termite Management - Chemical
Site Classifier
Fire Protection
Carrying out or undertaking to carry out building work includes:
directly or indirectly causing building work to be carried out;
providing advisory, administrative, management or supervisory services in relation to building work; or
entering into a contract or submitting a tender for building work or offering to carry out building work.
Them's the rules, I don't make them and I don't like them, but I try to abide by them.
Mick
How exactly do you intend to test the carcass of your stove with your voltmeter?Quote:
Originally Posted by nic
I don't think you know what you are talking about and your advise is wrong and dangerous. Please call an electrician so that nobody gets hurt.
The voltstick type testers (non-contact) are a good initial indication if power is available but as metalhead said further investigation is required. They don't always light up and can be activated by static and RF.
Nah you're right I'm ashamed you have blown my cover, I have no clue what I''m talking about. Close to 20 years zapping myself :o with electricity and I still don't have a clue about it, AC/DC is a rock group right ??Quote:
Originally Posted by NCArcher
btw what advice did I give out ? Get a good multimeter and know how to use it ... Yeah right real dangerous...
Nic
10A is fused, that's the rating of the fuse. You're probably thinking of fused leads, which contain in the ends of the leads to prevent excessive current when testing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Metal Head
i'm getting sick of all this elec bashing, we're not the only people in the world who make mistakes. I could go on all day about engineers, fitters, boilermakers, carpenters, mechanics, heck, anyone who have made mistakes.
I can go do a weekend course for first aid, but does that mean I can go play doctor and prescribe meds, and perform surgery? But I've done the course, so why not? yes, it is three wires, red black and green. "hang on, theres a white one, whats this blue one. hang on, they're all the same colour!" not so easy now. A week course won't tell you squat.
just a few quick respones to some posts, i'm not going back to find the original poster for each response;
yes, the regs are freely available, once you've paid for them. Anything you can find as a pdf will not be the regs. A 20 page pdf is not sufficient. To wire a house you'd need at least 3 different ASNZS standards.
yes, you can replace plugtops on appliances, you can't work on an installation. This includes off the grid systems over 50v [off the top of my head].
Yes, Australia has a high rate of electrical fatalities, but we also have a low population density. try getting a sparky in the middle of the outback. A huge proportion of these deaths are on farms where the wiring was DIY. A publication by Energysafe shows a huge rate of deaths from DIY work, as well as from truckies not looking up before they raise their buckets/tipper/thing.
If you are not experienced with the Australian wiring system, please refrain from describing how to install/repair a light or power circuit. It isn't as clear cut as it may seem, and if they need to ask for advice they'll probably have difficutly transferring info between the two systems.
And finally, to answer the original post [i think in seven pages I only saw two or three answers] no, you cannot wire up a stove if it is hardwired and yes it will need an isolating switch.
The 10 amp (non fused) connection on your multimeter is for measuring DC amperage over a short time span 10-15 sec's max , never for AC amperage, for that you need a clamp meter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Metal Head
As for needing an electrician it's like needing a trained pilot in a plane , follow the instructions and have 2-3 hrs on a simulator and away you go , electrical work is covered by laws and legal requirements to protect not only you but anyone who comes after you in an attempt to stop as many as possible deaths by electrution , end of story.
If in doubt ask your local authority if you are or are not allowed to carry out said work or do you need a licenced person?
Rgds
Thanks for that Ashore:2tsup:.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashore
Hey ashore, can you explain why ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashore
I am puzzled by your assertion about the DC only ?
As for the 10A non fused inputs, where did you get such a device ?
I don't think I've ever seen a non fused current input on a multimeter.
You will notice in the specs/manual of your multimeter is has a mention about continuous and peak reading with time limits. That is what you should refer too, your multimeter might only be able to hold the 10A reading for 5 seconds ...
Nic
Why I said not to test AC current was because a lot of multi meters will only play nicely with ac current under 20milliamps and in answering metal heads question the meters I have used that had a 10amp unfused socket were for DC only , I have not bought any good meters for the last 10 years as my old ones are all working and are more than I need, there may be new thecnology in the latest meters that allows you to test high range AC current if there is I haven't seen it , so rather than offer an opinion or give advice that may cause someone to damage their meter I went on the safety side in saying only use a clamp meter to measure AC Current .:DQuote:
Originally Posted by nic
Picture below of two meters both with non fused 10Amp DC current input sockets .Quote:
Originally Posted by nic
You are of course correct you should always read the specs , trouble is very few do until all else fails , and even then may find them hard to understand . My saying 10-15 secs max was from the lower limit of my meters and I should not have generalized as 15 secs may indeed damage a diffrent meter,Quote:
Originally Posted by nic
Rgds
Makes sense nowQuote:
Originally Posted by Ashore
Nic
Quote:
so rather than offer an opinion or give advice that may cause someone to damage their meter I went on the safety side in saying only use a clamp meter to measure AC Current .
that, and it's heaps easier anyway
You can say that again:2tsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by thatirwinfella
Rgds