Probably not and I doubt they've even thought of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by NCArcher
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Probably not and I doubt they've even thought of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by NCArcher
Markkr, how's the grass at your place? (he has the greenest thickest grass I've ever seen, on an ex-dairy farm, so I'm interested to see what drought effect there is)
Paul, I can assure you, from first hand experience, those 747's are the best thing since sliced bread. I lost count on how many loads they dropped over our area on S#*t Saturday but it was dozens. There is absolutely no comparison between the planes and the choppers. Loaded with pink retardant they are the most decisive thing against fire we have at our disposal. Many houses were saved only by the amount of water that could be dumped at a time. The fire was so intense, lesser amounts were not reaching the ground due to the heat and evaporation. If a method can be devised to fast fill these planes we will be much the better for it. Unfortunately, our Premier has decided we dont need any more planes. Can someone please tell me why we have politicians.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushmiller
Perhaps this belongs in the Electricity thread, but this thread is active, and it's all related.
Monash Uni seems to have made a very exciting battery breakthrough.
G'day Ken, I've been wondering how you fared. Yes, that illustrates exactly what I meant by the two different approaches being needed - nothing like a big dump. Where were they taking off and landing from? Richmond? That's only 20kms from you, as the Jumbo flies...Quote:
Originally Posted by rustynail
Brown Brett, utterly brown.
I don’t know but I know South Australia monitor and open and close their outback roads due to inclement weather via satellite observationsQuote:
Originally Posted by NCArcher
Without them to blame, we'd have to blame ourselves....Quote:
Originally Posted by rustynail
Paradoxically, about the last thing we need RIGHT now is heavy rain.
The risk of heavy rain triggering catastrophic flooding is just too great.
From Canada we've been following the situation back home.
What we need is a prolonged period of gentle steady rain. Something like 600 to 900 mm spread over 3 to 4 months.
All heavy rain will do is run right off the current bone dry ground.
Unfortunately, I expect what we will get is heavy rain that runs off more than it soaks in ...
G'Day Bret, Yes they are stationed at and flying out of Richmond RAAF base. A good location for them as it is pretty central for the rest of the State. They were a Godsend for Bilpin, I dont think there would have been much of the district left without them. IMHO we need enough of these planes to allow for the down time in refilling so when one leaves another takes it's place. So much of our current fire defense is only penury. If we are going to prevent something like this happening again there are going to have to be many changes made. I think the 747's was the best idea so far.Quote:
Originally Posted by FenceFurniture
are you sure the fire bombers are 747sQuote:
Originally Posted by rustynail
The one's I've seen look a lot like the much smaller 737s to me
Since in the minds of our current pollys "its already happened so there is no need to worry about it", as it probably won't happen again in their political lifetimes, there is little chance that any really effective changes will occure.Quote:
Originally Posted by rustynail
What we need is a way of communicating our displeasure en-mass. A petition? I wouldn't expect the Morrison supporter to sign it, but everyone else could.
BTW, does anyone know who the Morrison supporter is, or where he or she lives?
Remove humans, nature rebounds.... Study shows animal life thriving around Fukushima
I will put my hand up for that in light of the current alternatives. We don't really have much choice right now do we?Quote:
Originally Posted by FenceFurniture
Your sacrifice is legendary Doug.
Quite right. If we get heavy rain it will run off, taking a lot of ash and topsoil with it. This will effect the turbidity, which can reduce the effectiveness of water treatment plants, and also increase dissolved solids. These can effect invertebrates and fish.Quote:
Originally Posted by ian
It would be nice to get a week or so of 20mm a day, then a break to allow a bit of cover to grow, before we get heavier heavier rain. If only we could have weather to order.
Quite right Alex -- we need to get weather to orderQuote:
Originally Posted by AlexS
Be careful reading this:
BOM review shows 2019 was a year of weather extremes - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
Or simply choose to ignore it?
This is a fascinating short read on Cultural Burning, and the 10 minute HD video at the bottom is excellent. Everything they say makes complete sense.
Indigenous fire practices have been used to quell bushfires for thousands of years, experts say - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
They speak of getting the country healthy again, and it seems to me that if CBs were pursued as potentially the main "tool in the bag" then it would also greatly strengthen the Black Fella's bonding with their land, and greatly improve their own health at the same time. We've tried to "help" them to be white for too long now, so maybe it's time to just let them be black?
On cultural burning you have to understand the RFS in NSW. it has been a knigdom building political exercise from the Waterfall incident where many firefighter lives were lost (8?) due to the poor equipment in use at the time. A decision was rightly made that the RFS needed a total overhaul in all and every aspect and the government swallowed hard and did it. At the same time certain figures saw the opportunity to expand their political and departmental influence and in some cases that was repeated at a lower level as well. The RFS as a philosophy does not believe that low intensity burning works unless they have changed their mind and more importantly they believe they are always right and no one else can be. For many years they refused to believe that aerial water bombing could work in Australia and opposed its introduction. I am not sure when they changed on that or even if they did but it might have been around the turn of the century fire season we had.
I have not been directly involved for many years so some of the above may have changed. The on ground people who deal with the fire holding the hose are heroes, it is the upper echelons that caused the problems when I was involved and a lot of it was inter service rivalry which is not a good thing. Add the NP&WS to the mix and no one can agree on anything.
IanQuote:
Originally Posted by ian
Unfortunately, I think you may be right. A quick look on the net indicates that only three 747s have been built and only a single version remains in service so it is probably unlikely that current government would have taken any steps to hire it even if it was available. The 747 requires a 2400m runway to take off.
It seems likely that the aircraft Ken saw was a 737 as NSW apparently owns such a beast. It was probably obscured by smoke so difficult to identify.
NSW buys Boeing 737 large air tanker for firefighting - Australian Aviation
If the 737 ability was so dramatic, imagine how effective a 747 would be. More than three times the capacity! For example, from where we are the flying time would be about 20 minutes from Brisbane and probably 15 minutes return assuming priority would be given for take off and landing in Brisbane. I take Brett's point about the turn around times of small aircraft and choppers, but you also have to have water. Remember that country areas are in a drought. There is very little stored water in many regional areas of Australia.
Perhaps we need some more aircraft: Of all types.
Regards
paul
The defence forces are so named because their job is to defend us against danger.
I don't see why our air force couldn't operate a fleet of water bombers which would actually defend us against the real dangers that exist today.
They are supposed to have the skills to bomb targets and the extra practice wouldn't hurt.
The military are helping now but it shouldn't have required an 'on leave' PMs action to get their help.
They should be available whenever needed.
I cannot say for sure how it is now, but back in the day ...Quote:
Originally Posted by Bohdan
When I was in the Army all they had to do was ask. State governments, local councils and even individuals could ask for assistance.
Over 30 years ago when I had not yet even risen above the rank of Sergeant, I was on duty one Sunday and a local farmer who lived opposite the base drove in the gate to advise of a grass-fire on his property and asked if we could help him. I got the fire team mobilized and the fire was quickly dealt with.
I recorded the incident in my Duty Log Book,which I presented to the Adjutant on dismounting duty on Monday morning. His only comment was "Well done Sergeant".
Prime minister at the time was Bob Hawke. I doubt that he was ever aware of this action to his dying day.
I authorized it as a duty person without reference to any higher authority at the request of a citizen.
If I had been asked to justify my actions, which I was expecting to have to do but was not, I would have said that the fire may have posed a risk to military assets if it had not been extinguished.
Doug
I went looking for the tab that says "Really, really REALLY like" but as you are aware, there isn't one. So suffice to say that even if common sense is no longer with us, there are still a few people around who remember what it was.
Regards
Paul
Yes, my mistake they were 737. I have thick fingers and often strike the wrong key. Mind you, 747's would be even better but probably require more advanced runway facilities. Size is not critical, so long as we have the numbers. The difference they make to fire fighting is remarkable. On S#*t Saturday I saw six houses in a row saved by one pass. Very impressive.Quote:
Originally Posted by ian
So Bilpin now has quite a few "pinked" houses in the district. We refer to the owners as the "Anointed Ones." We also have a pair of pink donkeys who, prior to their anointing, were the best of mates. Now they won't have anything to do with each other. What ever happened to colour me happy?
I sadly shake my head when reading the related comments above. While aerial firefighting is a welcome addition to the tactical firefighting methods, its not a panacea, but many are now latching onto this as the silver bullet that will save us. Yes - some property will be saved by tactical use of these very expensive machines. However there are many issues arising from the growing calls for a dramatic increase in spending on this approach. And as far as effectiveness is concerned, the upper limit of intensity for fire suppression for even the biggest of these machines is about 5000kw/m - the recent fires have been burning with an intensity in excess of 150,000 kw/m.Quote:
Originally Posted by rustynail
The reality is that there will always be a limit on the budgets available for fire management. The question is how to maximise the effectiveness of the funds available. Buying or leasing more bombers will make for great political mileage and be seen as a win for those providing the funds. However, better use of this money would be a massive increase in proactive fuel load management, and better infrastructure for those with boots on the ground when fighting fires - ability to more rapidly construct mineral earth containment lines, better manage back burns, updated ground equipment and funding for income support for those who are fighting the fires. But this is not sexy and not suited to quick political soundbites. The huge focus on aerial suppression is a distraction.
I'm not saying that there should not be some increase in aerial firefighting capability, particularly given the northern and southern hemisphere fire seasons increasingly overlap and we can not rely on previous machine sharing arrangements; we will need to acquire some additional capability. However the conversation in the media and elsewhere seems to be ignoring many realities in favour of technology as the solution.
See the following for a well articulated discussion. There are many, many more in similar vein from those who have expertise in this area:
Water Bombing and Magic Bullets
Doug, I hope I'm wrong but I have deep suspicions that such a common sense approach may not be allowed today, and that red tape would be everywhere. Something like:
"But that's OUR job"
"Yes but we were already here"
"Doesn't matter, you should have called us"
and so on.
Re Ross' comment: I think we need to increase just about every aspect of the game, but in particular the preventative side rather than the reactive side.
Let's say these fires are going to cost $5bills, just for argument's sake (it will probably be much more before it's over - did I read $20b off GDP alone?). That money could buy a helluva lot of preventative measures. I wonder how many cultural burns it would cover? (there would need to be a great deal of education done, people hired and resourced etc etc). The big takeaway from that article for me was that White Fella's hazard reduction is just too hot and too blunt hammer approach. CBs are gentle - hell they hardly even had any protective clothing apart from gloves. I'm imagining a national Fire Force with tens of thousands of Black Fellas and other trained people moving around from district to district, doing CBs as required. It wouldn't be long before they would all be hugely experienced in treating all the varieties of country. Combine their millennia of experience with scientific instruments (for say moisture content reading quickly and accurately) and other relevant equipment.
"SmoKo's Fire Force" has a bit of ring to it, doncha think?
No single approach will ever be the universal panacea, but if we can get the prevention game running much better than it is then we don't need to pour anywhere near as much resource into the panicked curative side - something I'm sure the insurance industry would like, just for a start.
The Mega Fire which started in the Wollemi National Park was from a single lightening strike in a relatively inaccessible area. The responsibility of National Parks and Wildlife it was left to burn its self out. Well it didn't. More than 500,000 hectares so far and still going. In this sort of country only air fighting is going to get the job done. If we can afford to waste millions on fireworks displays we can afford a bit of serious fire protection. Yes it is expensive but so to are peoples lives, homes and businesses. If it wasn't for the aircrews up here on S#*t Saturday there would have been nothing left. There were 2000 Firies on the ground. All they could do was try to install containment lines, which failed time after time. Keep in mind, we are not talking your average BBQ runaway here, we are talking fire, the likes of which has not been experienced in Australia before. Drastic circumstances require drastic measures. If Global Warming and Climate Change are the real deal, we are going to be looking at this situation occurring with monotonous regularity. If we are going to lock up vast tracts of bushland for National Parks we must be prepared to take the responsibility of proper management. National Parks and Wildlife are punching well above their weight, with little positive effect on weeds,vermin or fire reduction.
If we can afford to fly ourselves around the world just for a bit of a holiday why is it that it all becomes too expensive to have some serious fire protection?
I haven't been able to find out anything of the fate of the Wollemi Pines, but unless they gave it a good dose of retardant, it's hard to see how they would have been spared.
Exactly my recollection as a civilian during floods.Quote:
When I was in the Army all they had to do was ask. State governments, local councils and even individuals could ask for assistance.
No doubt about either part of that.Quote:
Originally Posted by rustynail
Technically what you did is called "aid to the Civil power".Quote:
Originally Posted by doug3030
Again technically, an individual can not request that aid -- it has to be some level of the "Civil Power" the local police, council, what ever. But you as the senior duty person can independently mobilise the base fire team to protect the base from the cocky's grass fire.
Great initiative there me son.
So well done.
BTW
Back in '89, 14 Sqn RAE mobilised on their own initiative to aid the Civil Power following the Newcastle Earthquake.
Edit: to add bit about 14 Sqn, RAE.
In respect to cultural burning, the big problem is the weather in the Sydney Basin leads on too many days to the city being clothed in very unhealthy smoke.
Outside the Sydney basin it's more a case of why bother.
Ohhh yes! Well said.Quote:
Originally Posted by rustynail
I have just returned today from a local gathering to address a town issue and the subject of acute and chronic problems was discussed. In relation to the fires we have an immediate problem (acute) and a long term problem (chronic). Whilst our first priority is to the immediate effects to people and property (in that order) we should not neglect the aftermath. Fire through a tourist resort is the kiss of death, certainly this year and probably next year too. Bush fire is to land mass what an oil spill is to the ocean.
Ultimately we are all affected to some degree as in the aftermath it is like taking a wrecking ball to the economy.
It is not expensive to put in place preventative measures and to have resources available for when they fail. It is expensive not to do this.
Regards
Paul
Hi Ian, were you here in Nov/Dec? Unbelievable smoke every damn day in Sydney. I suspect they'd trade that for some less smoky days spread around. I don't think CBs have to be done all that often though - every 3-5 years perhaps?? CBs may not necessarily stop fires but they may well reduce the intensity and make them easier to put out or manage.Quote:
Originally Posted by ian
Somehow we only had two smoky days up here until quite late in the whole event. I just forget now but I don't think we had any but those two days up until about mid-December. This was quite extraordinary given that I could see the smoke billowing out of the Ruined Castle fire - it was all blowing towards Sydney as could be seen down at Echo Point. But even when it wasn't blowing towards the Big Smoke :roll: there were huge clouds of smoke affecting the colour of sunlight, but nothing down on the ground. However, since then (early-mid Dec) it has been smoky to some extent most of the time - but even then it can vary greatly within one day, and I suspect that is our altitude at play.
There have been quite a number of misty days too, looking at it from inside it's actually very difficult to tell if it's smoke, mist, or a Katoomba Special (50/50 of each)
Eh? That might need some expanding upon.....Quote:
Originally Posted by ian
Although it can be counter-intuitive to how we think things work. Aussie bush is the most adapted to recovery from fires (AFAIK). In 1994 98% of the Royal National Park was burnt. The 1995 wildflower season was the most spectacular I've ever seen! I was a very keen photographer of wildflowers in those years and had very good knowledge of the RNP and where to find what. I was very fortunate to live pretty close to the RNP for many years - the Sydney Basin is the 3rd most significant wildflower area in Australia, after the Stirling and Flinders Ranges.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushmiller
Just as a matter of interest for those who may not know - the RNP was the first declared in Australia (1879) and the second in the world, after Yellowstone in 1872.
Bushfire is a bit like a war, there are those who’s world is turned upside down and yet makes the world go around for others.
A lot of work and commerce is generated as a result