How finely do you sand?

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Originally Posted by Lignum

I have a board in my workshop that is divided into three and sanded separately with 150# 320# and 600# with the identifying grits written on the back and not in order. Air was use to thoroughly remove all grit and sanding dust from the pours, then sprayed with four coats of laquer, very lightly sanded in between with 320# and 600# on the second last coat. Every single person that looks at that board can not identify which grit is wich. Its just impossible. Moral to the story for me is dont sand over 150# theirs just no point:)

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G'day Lignum!

I hear what you say, and would agree that lower grit #s are fine for softwoods.

However, with woods like Jarrah, Redgum, Rosewood, etc, I have definitely found that the sheen improves as I step up the grit. For example, I recently received a sample piece of Rosewood. I planed it smooth (to a "silken" touch), then rubbed it with 600, 800 then 1200; at each stage it was quite noticeable how much more sheen was developing. The same thing has applied with RG.

The key question is: does this make any difference after the first coat of finish has been applied, whether it be floorseal, Danish oil, shellac or some other?

It's funny: when I got started in WW again, about 18 months ago, my finishes were comparable to a, ahem, "processed" dog's dinner:eek: Now they're more like the mutt's supper - before he gets to it :rolleyes:

Cheers!

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Originally Posted by Termite

Let's just say that near enough is not good enough for me. ;) and I have already stated what I do.

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I was just hoping you would enlighten us as to why you are shaking your head:)

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Originally Posted by Lignum

I was just hoping you would enlighten us as to why you are shaking your head:)

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Because I have seen too many otherwise fine jobs that have had a lot of work put in to them absolutely ruined at the finishing stage, simply because the person would not put the work into the finish that they put into building the job.

In the "Good Old Days" Cabinetmaking/Furnituremaking and Finishing were two separate trades, quite often for a very good reason. Usually because many a fine cabinetmaker wasn't a finishers asrehole. :(

Spend 6 weekends building a job then a quick scrub down with 120 and slap a coat of water based poly on 'er, she'll be right mate. That is exagerating the issue, but it is the attitude that is partly coming through to me.

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Originally Posted by Termite

Because I have seen too many otherwise fine jobs that have had a lot of work put in to them absolutely ruined at the finishing stage, simply because the person would not put the work into the finish that they put into building the job.

In the "Good Old Days" Cabinetmaking/Furnituremaking and Finishing were two separate trades, quite often for a very good reason. Usually because many a fine cabinetmaker wasn't a finishers asrehole. :(

Spend 6 weekends building a job then a quick scrub down with 120 and slap a coat of water based poly on 'er, she'll be right mate. That is exagerating the issue, but it is the attitude that is partly coming through to me.

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Its interesting that the pro woodies generally don't go over 150 yet the recreational woodies go to very fine grits. Makes me think that the recreational woodies haven't learnt to sand properly so they tend to over compensate by going to finer and finer grits.

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Originally Posted by Auld Bassoon

G'day Lignum!

I hear what you say, and would agree that lower grit #s are fine for softwoods.

However, with woods like Jarrah, Redgum, Rosewood, etc, I have definitely found that the sheen improves as I step up the grit. For example, I recently received a sample piece of Rosewood. I planed it smooth (to a "silken" touch), then rubbed it with 600, 800 then 1200; at each stage it was quite noticeable how much more sheen was developing. The same thing has applied with RG.

The key question is: does this make any difference after the first coat of finish has been applied, whether it be floorseal, Danish oil, shellac or some other?

It's funny: when I got started in WW again, about 18 months ago, my finishes were comparable to a, ahem, "processed" dog's dinner:eek: Now they're more like the mutt's supper - before he gets to it :rolleyes:

Cheers!

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Steve:) First thing, i rarely use softwoods and use lots of Jarrah, Redgum and sometimes Rosewood, so im basing my technique those types of timbers. Sanding or planing up to and then 600/800/1200# on raw timber makes a very big difference than just sanding to 150/180# its very noticeable.

Comparing the two extreams when they are polished - With 150/180# as long as the quality of your sanding is spot on and it has been thoroughly blasted with air to remove all traces of dust and grit from the pores, then as soon as you finish each board (150/180 and 600/800/1200) identically with a good quality finish and technique, that difference then disappears. If you get out a magnifying glass, obviously it will be different, but to the naked eye the same. But looking at a nice piece of furniture with a quality finish, the difference will be minimal.

As you would have noticed by now with everything i write, keeping things simple, is to me the most important technique in woodwork. And in lots of ways thats harder said than done. Its something that is diffucult to teach but something you have to learn to feel . So many make the mistake of thinking by going that extra 5% in all stages will increase the quality of the piece by 5 or 10% and it dosnt. My favourite word is ballance, get that right and your furniture will take on a whole new aspect:)

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Originally Posted by Termite

Because I have seen too many otherwise fine jobs that have had a lot of work put in to them absolutely ruined at the finishing stage, simply because the person would not put the work into the finish that they put into building the job.

In the "Good Old Days" Cabinetmaking/Furnituremaking and Finishing were two separate trades, quite often for a very good reason. Usually because many a fine cabinetmaker wasn't a finishers asrehole. :(

Spend 6 weekends building a job then a quick scrub down with 120 and slap a coat of water based poly on 'er, she'll be right mate. That is exagerating the issue, but it is the attitude that is partly coming through to me.

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Termite:) You are absoulutly correct in your assesment. And so is Bob. I find people going up in grits because they are to lazy to sand corectly in the first place. Put a finish over 150# and it looks terrible so go to 600# and it looks ten times better. If they sand with patience and do it corectly in the first place, they would be surprised just how good 150# will look:)

Now this is something I gotta try.

I'm working on a shelf thingee (needs a name but haven't got there yet) made from some sort of reddish gum. It's got watermarks and gum pockets and needs sanding.

So, to test the theories here, I should be able to sand it with 80, 100, then 150 and then put on my finish??

Now, to make sure I'm sanding correctly, are there any particular methods of sanding besides with the grain, that I should follow?

I have the sandpaper, a cork sanding block, tack cloths - anything else?

edit - should I start another thread if there is enough interest or keep it here?

cheers
RufflyRustic

Wendy:) The way to look at it, sandpaper cuts scratches in the timber. I know it sounds obvious, but to develop good sanding technique its important to remember . When you use 80# the scratches are of a certain depth, then you go to 100# and naturally you get finer scratches. The aim is to completely remove the depth of the 80# scratches and replace them with the depth of the finer 100# scratches and that takes some patience and time to make sure they are all removed. Then going to 120# and repeating, then onto 150# then onto 180# At that point you should have a very fine surface area. If you dont have compressed air, just dust it down with a brush and vacuum it as good as you can (you should do this inbetween every new grit) then dampen the surface with a wet cloth.

When it has dried, with a soft leaded pencil, lightly mark square grids over the surface about 150-200mm sq. And have a good hard close look in every grid for blemishes from the sanding and/or little chips and holes. Circle them with your pencil and fix the holes and chips, then with a good sanding block, i use a 1/2 sheet plastic pad from an automotive shop that has spring clips on the end just like a 1/2 sheet orbital. Cork blocks are to small, they just dont do a good job. Going back to 150# in the pad, rub up and down the top using good pressure so you can feel the sandpaper doing its job, if you do it to light its not cutting. Sand, paying attention to the circled marks, and when all the pencil circle and grids have gone you know you have given the entire top a thorough sand. To finish you can put on a fresh 180# and carefully and with light pressure and long strokes go over the entire surface. Resist going up and back in the same motion on your final sand, because until you get good technique where you stop and return you can end up with small sanded curves that will show through the finish.

The important thing now is to remove as much dust and grit from the top as you possibly can with a good brush and your vacuum. As long as you take your time and dont skip grits, youl end up with a very nice surface. Have fun:)

:rolleyes: Sheesh, so that's what I've been doing wrong!!

Thanks Lignum. I'll let you all know how it goes.

cheers
Wendy

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Originally Posted by Lignum

Steve:) First thing, i rarely use softwoods and use lots of Jarrah, Redgum and sometimes Rosewood, so im basing my technique those types of timbers. Sanding or planing up to and then 600/800/1200# on raw timber makes a very big difference than just sanding to 150/180# its very noticeable.

Comparing the two extreams when they are polished - With 150/180# as long as the quality of your sanding is spot on and it has been thoroughly blasted with air to remove all traces of dust and grit from the pores, then as soon as you finish each board (150/180 and 600/800/1200) identically with a good quality finish and technique, that difference then disappears. If you get out a magnifying glass, obviously it will be different, but to the naked eye the same. But looking at a nice piece of furniture with a quality finish, the difference will be minimal.

As you would have noticed by now with everything i write, keeping things simple, is to me the most important technique in woodwork. And in lots of ways thats harder said than done. Its something that is diffucult to teach but something you have to learn to feel . So many make the mistake of thinking by going that extra 5% in all stages will increase the quality of the piece by 5 or 10% and it dosnt. My favourite word is ballance, get that right and your furniture will take on a whole new aspect:)

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Thanks Lignum:)

I appreciate your time in answering my dopey beginner questions - I had, as you'd initmated, assumed that by bring each stage up by a few percent, that the final outcome would be that much better:o Happy to learn from one with a lot more experience....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lignum

Termite:) You are absoulutly correct in your assesment. And so is Bob. I find people going up in grits because they are to lazy to sand corectly in the first place. Put a finish over 150# and it looks terrible so go to 600# and it looks ten times better. If they sand with patience and do it corectly in the first place, they would be surprised just how good 150# will look:)

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I'm sensing the need for a sanding and a finishing "masterclass" here!

Graeme from (Ex-Woodpeckers) put on a paid router course late last year; I'm wondering if there might be enough forum interest to get together a group of members here in Melbourne to pay someone for one or more tutorials on sanding and/or finishing techniques? I'd be game for such!

Perhaps a PM if anyone's keen?

Steve:) No such thing as a dopey question:D The way i described my way of doing a simple process like sanding to Wendy gives me a really nice blemish free finish just going to 150#


One day when you are bored, get a couple of meter length pieces and plane/scrape and 600/800/1200 one, and sand from 80# all the way up to 1200# on the other. Divide each stage as you go and mark with a pencil or scribe in between and on the back write which is which. Then polish it up as good as you can possibly can and then use that as a reference for the future.

I can tell you how and why i do it and Fred Blogs will tell you his best surefire way. Every one has a different sanding technique that will alter the outcome using the same method. Your test piece will tel YOU exactly what stage you should be looking at when the cut off point arrives:)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lignum

Steve:) No such thing as a dopey question:D The way i described my way of doing a simple process like sanding to Wendy gives me a really nice blemish free finish just going to 150#


One day when you are bored, get a couple of meter length pieces and plane/scrape and 600/800/1200 one, and sand from 80# all the way up to 1200# on the other. Divide each stage as you go and mark with a pencil or scribe in between and on the back write which is which. Then polish it up as good as you can possibly can and then use that as a reference for the future.

I can tell you how and why i do it and Fred Blogs will tell you his best surefire way. Every one has a different sanding technique that will alter the outcome using the same method. Your test piece will tel YOU exactly what stage you should be looking at when the cut off point arrives:)

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Thanks for that Lignum:)

Will do - and with a few of my favourite woods like Redgum, Jarrah, Blackwood - and rack them on the shed's wall.

It's funny - that's exactly what I do with various finishes - quite why it hadn't occurred for the underlying preparatory stages...:confused:

I just want to add one other comment on this to my previous one.

End Grain: I sand this to at least 1500. I then use a wash coat of shellac on it. This is especially useful when using oils. You get a nice even absorption without the end grain being muddy. In fact the end grain will look quite nice.

Impossible to answer without writing a book. In short it depends on the project. Somethings are fine without any sanding what so ever; fence post tops that I used to make. Others are buffed to with very fine buffing compound to a mirror finish (12" finish); smaller projects that are rarely over 12" in size. Even with furniture it depends on what I'm trying to achieve. Some pieces have had no sanding, others I've sanded to 80 grit and then beat the hell out of them. Other projects, usually the reproduction furniture, I'll use a high quality 3M paper that is rated at 240 grit but feels more like 400 grit and then finish off with 0000 steel wool.... What I sand to depends on what I plan to use as a finish also.