The Lucky Country

I'm hearing alot of talk about teachers being responsible for today's kids not having alot of "basic" skills. Some thoughts:

1 Teachers don't have a lot of control over what they teach..the curriculums are set by higher powers.

2. Teachers arent the only people responsible for a child's education. Education also goes on in the home. In the "old" days children got taught discipline and respect and other basic personal skills at home. For some reason alot of parents have handed that task over to the teachers. It's no wonder teachers are having trouble doing their jobs properly...they're doing their own job as well as that of the parents.

3. How many parents who complain about the standard of their children's schooling actually do something about it...ie, get involved with the school's PTA.

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Originally Posted by Bodgy

Consequently we have nowhere near enough nurses and those that are there have a mean age of over 50! This makes it's contribution to the gigantic cluster frcc that is today's healthcare.

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Bodgy, my wife is also a nurse with a Masters Degree in Nursing and about 24 years experience. She did however get her original practicing certificate in Japan by working her way through a nursing college attached to a hospital (bit like old system here in Oz).

While I agree that the practical skills of nurses entering the work force is not as good as it used to be, the way they've trained has nothing to do with job/salary expectations and its certainly not the main reason nurses are leaving the profession. They're leaving because the remuneration has not increased in line with the demands and responsibilities that come with the job. Add to that the pathetically low nurse to patient ratios in a majority of hospitals and you have to ask yourself why are the nurses that are still in the job sticking it out?

My wife sticks it out mainly because she feels an obligation towards the people she's looking after....I've told her shes crazy but its her call. She'll quit very soon though because of back problems...brought about by never having enough help on hand when patients have to be lifted.

Nurses should be paid alot more and alot of people need to get themselves out of the "Florence Nightingale" mindset....this outdated idea that nurses do nothing except change beds and clean up s%%t.

Cheers Martin

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Originally Posted by kiwigeo

I'm hearing alot of talk about teachers being responsible for today's kids not having alot of "basic" skills. Some thoughts:

1 Teachers don't have a lot of control over what they teach..the curriculums are set by higher powers.

2. Teachers arent the only people responsible for a child's education. Education also goes on in the home. In the "old" days children got taught discipline and respect and other basic personal skills at home. For some reason alot of parents have handed that task over to the teachers. It's no wonder teachers are having trouble doing their jobs properly...they're doing their own job as well as that of the parents.

3. How many parents who complain about the standard of their children's schooling actually do something about it...ie, get involved with the school's PTA.

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1. true, if a teacher started to teach maths by rote learning as an example they'd be having a chat with the principal pretty soon after...

2. the reason the job of 'teaching' respect etc has fallen to teachers is because many parents don't have a well established value system themselves, plus the role models these days leave a lot to be desired...its a complex issue to be sure

3. ironic that many people call for a return to corporal punishment, so long as their own little angels dont get it because they never do anything wrong. Had an incident with one of the schools here recently with bullying, the parents were quite vocal in threatening all sorts of action for 'unfair' treatment of their kids in a bashing case...apparently didnt know that their children were often in trouble at school anyway for similar actions...

While I agree that the practical skills of nurses entering the work force is not as good as it used to be, the way they've trained has nothing to do with job/salary expectations and its certainly not the main reason nurses are leaving the profession. They're leaving because the remuneration has not increased in line with the demands and responsibilities that come with the job. Add to that the pathetically low nurse to patient ratios in a majority of hospitals and you have to ask yourself why are the nurses that are still in the job sticking it out?



Respectfully have to disagree. I'm told that throughout the Uni course the concept of 'professional' is drummed into the students, at Uni they mix with others who have a professional career in front of them. However, once these nurse graduates (having paid for their degree) hit the wards, they are soon dis-illusioned. As you say, the abyssmal pay and hours are a major contributor, their Uni mates are making more $$, progressing their careers and socialising during normal hours. These nurse graduates, however, find that they must perform menial tasks, their chances of advancement are very poor (the Nurse Practitioner concept still has a long way to go) and however experienced and skilled they may be, they are still outranked by a spotty doctor, fresh out of med school. There is no real career structure.

My point is that the apprentice system has its place, and, I beleive, particularly in Nursing. From your first paragraph, I think you may agree.

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Originally Posted by kiwigeo

Nurses should be paid alot more and alot of people need to get themselves out of the "Florence Nightingale" mindset....this outdated idea that nurses do nothing except change beds and clean up s%%t.

Cheers Martin

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Trouble is, someone needs to change beds and clean up s%%t.

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Originally Posted by Barry_White

I wont talk about my 35 occupations I've had in my lifetime that I do not have any papers for but carried out successfully without ever getting the sack.

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Barry,

That might have worked 'in the old days' but thanks to our friends in the law field and their so called 'progress'. One cannot do that these days.

How about someone who says that they are a electrician when they are not and wire up a house. They might do a perfect job, but when the day comes when someone in that house opens up a light switch and electrocutes themselves guess who is up for neglegent homicide because they traded without the correct papers?

Same could be said for just about any profession - the civil engineer with a degree who's bridge collapsed when a 10 ton truck ignored the sign that dais 5 ton only etc...

Might not even be a criminal offense - how about someone who lies on their resume and says that they have the qualifications to be in maketing (do you actually need something other than a good liver to do this?). So teh company hiures them and at some point they stuff up a multi million marketing campain. Comany does a check and finds out that there resume was false and probably sues for the value of that marketing campain.

In all honesty that piece of paper is not so much to get the job, but also to cover yourself once you have got it.

Myself I am educated as an electronic engineer and I too have never been asked to present the piece of paper.

Most people will probably agree with me that that piece of paper is good for your first job - thereafter your experience and achievements count far for for the next jobs!

the qualifications to be in maketing (do you actually need something other than a good liver to do this?).



I say Anthony, steady on old man!

Naturally a good liver is essential to cope with the onerous social obligations. Marketing chaps are all out of the top drawer, you know. You make no mention whatsoever of all the other sterling characteristics required, a total absence of ethics, the ability to seriously present the most ludicrous ideas with a straight face, the talent to always avoid measurement and re-direct blame and, most importantly, to genuinely believe that your activities actually matter and are vital to the success of the business.

How many fellows do you see around that can fit that bill, eh?

God God! The effrontery, I say, 'nother G&T overhere. Was that a horse that just farted or Lady McMahon?........

Good evening all

I reckon you people are getting old. Like me.

It ain't what is used to be like - is it?

Wasn't it much better in the old days?

No it wasn't. And if we keep on getting better, and better educated as we are as a whole, it will never be like the 'old days'.

Thank heavens.

Regards

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Originally Posted by shrek

Trouble is, someone needs to change beds and clean up s%%t.

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Shrek, you miss my point....I said the popular public perception is that this is all they do. Nurses today are expected to have a wider range of skills and take on more responsibilities than their predecessors. I think most people would agree that remuneration should reflect the skills and responsibilities that come with a job. In the case of nursing this isn't the case.

Cheers Martin

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Originally Posted by Bodgy

My point is that the apprentice system has its place, and, I beleive, particularly in Nursing. From your first paragraph, I think you may agree.

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Agree with some of what you say Bodgy but I disagree with the above. The apprentice system probably sufficed in the past but nurses these days are required to have a lot more skills and take on more responsibilites than in the past. As an example...there's a strong move to have nurses take over many of the duties currently carried out by doctors....eg prescribing pharmaceuticals for patients, etc.

Being Japanese, my wife has experienced nursing both in Japan and here in Australia. In her opinion the standard of nursing here is much better and to a large degree its due to the different training the nurses go through..in Japan it's largely an apprentice style system like we used to have here. Here in Australia there's alot more academic training involved.

Cheers Martin

Upon reading some of the lessons that my staff were to undertake at a course designed especially for cleaners, i came across this:

"The correct way to utilise full body mechanical function to successfully yield all contents of a waste receptacle"

A greenie to the first that can tell me what the above actually means!!!

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Originally Posted by kiwigeo

Nurses today are expected to have a wider range of skills and take on more responsibilities than their predecessors. I think most people would agree that remuneration should reflect the skills and responsibilities that come with a job. In the case of nursing this isn't the case.

Cheers Martin

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The trouble is, 80 - 90% of nursing is still about changing beds, cleaning up the s%%t, tending to the patients needs and providing direct patient care and you dont need a degree to do these type of duties. What makes a good nurse is his/her attitude to the patients and their caring nature. This cant be taught at university. As far as renumeration goes, a 1st year Registered Nurse has a base salary of $44,000. P.A. plus penalty rates (plus 7 weeks annual leave). Most Nursing staff in the hospital I work at earn about $60 - 70 K per year. While this isn't as much as a lot of people get these days, it isn't peanuts.

Having worked in hospitals for 18 years, in clinical areas and now management, I have witnessed the problems that come with university educated nurses compared with nursing staff who were hospital trained. Earlier this year I was on a ward area when a new graduate nurse came up to the clinical nurse consultant and stated that the patient who they were looking after had soiled themselves and they wanted to know who they had to call to clean them up. You should have seen his face when he was informed that it was his job. That staff member only lasted 6 months before he was able to use his nursing degree to find a job in another area of health. As he said when he left, he didn't spen 4 years at uni to be cleaning up other peolpes s%%t. As I said earlier, someone still needs to clean it up.

As I said earlier my apprenticeship in aircraft instrument making would be next best to useless these days with the advances in electronic systems etc. That is why the apprenticeship was modified to include a lot of that theory and practice to the trade and you still spent a significant part of your time working under the instruction of qualified people to round out your experience. Don't really see a difference in any trades really, they have changed and they have been modified to adapt to those changes.

The hairy legged bra burners in that trade decided they wanted to get some recognition for their colleagues and hence flogged of all the training facilities from the hospital - bet that got smiles from the polies :rolleyes: Must have been a ball biter of a cost justification document :o

From a hairy legged wood turner - you know I still have to clean up the s#$t

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Originally Posted by maglite

Upon reading some of the lessons that my staff were to undertake at a course designed especially for cleaners, i came across this:

"The correct way to utilise full body mechanical function to successfully yield all contents of a waste receptacle"

A greenie to the first that can tell me what the above actually means!!!

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How to empty the bin

Bob,
Those piece of paper aren't imposed by teachers having too much influence on goverment. The whole thing is driven by industry.

For example the "Manufacturing Industry Skills Council Ltd " is the Advisory body that tells the Aust Government (thru Dept Education and the Aust. National Training Authority) what to put in the Manufacturing Trades TAFE courses. They are:
"Manufacturing Skills Australia (MSA) represents over 75,000 manufacturing businesses employing almost one million Australians. We are their voice and the source of information on skills and workforce development through vocational education and training. We assist industries, enterprises, and their workforces to integrate skill development with business goals and support high quality, nationally recognised training products and services." They go on to state that they are a representative body, made up of industry reps and are not-of-profit.
In other words the Manufacturing Industry got sick of the previous "skills and knowledge" trainining providers for their employees and got organised, and set up all the TAFE Courses in Manufacturing. It is industry driven.

Employers know that a piece of paper is only a recognition that you have passed certain benchmarks on Knowledge and Skill in a particular area. From there they then need to know job history and check references to see what you can actually do. There is a difference between Learning and Competency.
Without the piece of paper you run the risk of limiting your job opportunities to those that know you and that you have a good reputation with. Without that qualification you can quickly become irrelevant to employers.

I get a bit shirty when I hear about the "good old days". I missed them when I started out and frankly things have never been better then right now. Low unemployment, good economy and so on. To me the "good old days" set this country up for the high unemployment, recession and high interest rates that made things very difficult for me 15 years ago when I started out and could get no other job than labourer.
We all see things differently I guess.