Agreed and When they are available I be one of the first in line to buy.Quote:
Originally Posted by GraemeCook
Printable View
Agreed and When they are available I be one of the first in line to buy.Quote:
Originally Posted by GraemeCook
It seems to me that we are not ALL that far away from a nicely integrated system being available. Solar Panels are more or less fully developed (but there will no doubt be improvements and costs cuts), car batteries appear to be viable right now, and there'll be significant developments in the next couple of years. Home battery? Nah, waste of money once we have V2H or V2X cars all over the place. Maybe the inverter will need changing with the implementation of an interface to stitch all the components together?Quote:
Originally Posted by GraemeCook
This may be of interest and explain some of the detail on EV batteries, their capacities, charge times and ratings:
EV battery size, charge speeds and range explained | TechRadar
Regards
Paul
A lot of wishful thinking there, not everyone will have a BEV due to supply constraints in manufacturing and not everyone will have solar panels due to any number of other problems, they don't own the home, apartment living, no off street parking etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by FenceFurniture
Keep in mind most (the whole two or three of them) BEV's V2L is limited to 3.6kw and that is not going to keep a house very warm during the hours before bedtime even in Oz let alone OS where it gets seriously cold.
I reckon there will always be a use for a small-medium size house battery when the sun aint shining and your car is not at home or charging.Quote:
Originally Posted by FenceFurniture
EG
If you go away for a holiday with your EV, a home battery will easily run your frigde/freezers overnights.
It''s a stinking hot day and you've decide to go out for the evening, a home battery will keep your ACs ticking over till you get home.
Also if the EV is charging can it be used to power your house, You've been away for a long trip and you schedule a long recharge for an all day charge starting 9am next morning and your Solar may not be able to run your house and recharge the EV at the same time.
Battery costs will eventually come done whereby people who don't like sucking off the grid can still have one even for incidental use..
I should have added the "being available".Quote:
Originally Posted by FenceFurniture
I'm talking V2H or V2X. V2L is really only useful on the job or a trip away when just have to have freshly brewed coffee available anytime, and just can't stand the thought of using a portable gas stove. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Chris Parks
BobLs Italian Village (BIV) creates a new idea of what "the grid" may be.
For those on a 20Ha farm, a DIY is needed. Its obvious.
But for us city slickers who live in shoe boxes, the option of a solar panel or battery install is not there.
What we need, akin to the BIV, is an investable resource. If I cannot spend 10k or 50k on solar and batteries, perhaps I can INVEST the same in another project? A community battery, a community solar install, or even something bigger.
We should have an option, via the ASX, or a specialised sub-board, where I can put my dough.
Maybe. It would vary for everyone though, and could be easily analysed with a spreadsheet: how many kWh do I think I'll use per year for the life of the battery, and how much does the battery cost and live forQuote:
Originally Posted by BobL
VERSES
how much will it cost to simply use the grid for those periods, and trade it off against whatever feed-in tariffs are available.
This situation could be where modular batteries come into play, provided it's simple enough to manage the swapping out (they'll be mighty heavy for some time yet).
Yes, community batteries are sure to become a thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by woodPixel
I can do that now with my diesel Colorado. Heck, we were using 12 volt jugs in Army vehicles back in the 1970's, probably a lot longer, but that's when I was doing it. I have 12 volt and 240 volt available on the road all the time. I have a 40-litre Engel fridge in the back running 24/7. I run a freezer in the back too when on longer trips, also 24/7.Quote:
Originally Posted by FenceFurniture
We had a power blackout last year sometime, I plugged the modem and Julie's work computer and desk lighting into the back of the ute and she continued working from home and her bosses didn't know a thing about it until she told them.
Had the blackout lasted much longer I could have set up the camping solar panels and been able to run all the essentials and a few luxuries from the Auxiliary batteries in the back of the ute.
I know that this is not the integrated system that is being discussed hare but the point is that a lot of the same ends can be met with comparatively small batteries and solar panels but it shows how much can be done already with a lot less than a full-on car battery.
That does not change anything if the maximum draw is 3600 Watts.Quote:
Originally Posted by FenceFurniture
It's the wild west and will be for the next decade. Everyone is coming up with thousands of ideas and none of them are going into universal use because everyone thinks their pet idea is the answer to the world's problems so no constructive and lasting decisions are made.Quote:
Originally Posted by woodPixel
Yep, and all designed to Mil Spec, and only costing $500 each - in 1960's dollars.Quote:
Originally Posted by doug3030
It's only V2L that has that limitation. It would seem that V2L is designed for having 240v power away from home, or to be used into the home for an emergency situation. V2H is designed to run the whole house.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Parks
Can you show me where I can find the specs on V2H because I can't find them.
A link that explains some of the new EV bi-directional charging technology already available in some countries (UK for example) and should arrive on Australian shores at some point in the future.
V2G vs V2H vs V2L - A Guide to Bidirectional Charging in Australia | CarsGuide
One issue that I see is the balancing act that needs to be addressed. From an owners point of view the amount you return to the grid, if you are in the fortunate position to do this, has to be balanced against your likely use of the vehicle. AEMO usually have a fair idea of how much power is available at any given moment and a pretty good estimate of how much power is required by the Eastern seaboard. The return of electricity to the grid under the circumstances described above would be at the whim of the vehicle owner. That does not really make for a stable grid or a sound economic basis for the major players in power generation.
In an extreme situation we could see many renewable sources (solar, wind, hydro and possibly something else too) of power generation without the commensurate storage other than car batteries. I don't really think that is likely as car batteries, particularly if limited to 3.6Kw (I don't really know about that, but it was mentioned in an earlier post), would be unable to cope with the demand from industry. Clearly there is a lot of development to be done, both with the technology and the application.
If a person is in the fortunate position of being able to afford an EV, it seems to make sense to hold off until bi-directional capability is available. Interesting that Tesla does not offer this, presumeably because of the conflict and adverse effect on sales of their other product, the Tesla wall. I would expect the wall to go the same way as that one in Berlin. In any event, The Tesla Wall is too small, too limited (an hour) and too expensive. Musk will put it on the cars as sales drop off.
Regards
Paul
I cannot find anything specific, either, Chris, although the general debate has been going on for over a year.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Parks
Essentially a Tesla Powerwall stores 13.1 kWh of electricity whereas the longest range Tesla S has a 100 kWh battery. By using a small or large part of that car battery capacity in the house, you can effectively have the equivalent of a Powerwall without significant extra cost. You just need an effective energy management system! Remember, cars are parked, usually at home, for most of their life. They are only driven for 2 or 3% of the time.
One of the challenges is in the absense of a link between the wholesale and retail markets for electricity. Wholesale prices fluctuate during the day with supply and demand. Retailers sell you electricity at a fiiixed price and buy from you at a heavily discounted fixed price. A look at the demand and spot pricing for Queensland for the last 48 hours will illustrate this.
Attachment 525834
My reading of these curves, remembering that roof top solar is not measured, is:
- Demand, green curve & RHS scale, peaks daily during breakfast and dinner preparation,
- Price, mauve curve & LHS scale, peaks daily at approximately the same time,
- Lowest demand is during day time when roof top solars are contributing significantly,
- The "excess supply" in day time actually forces spot price into the negatives,
- Night time demand is actually higher because of absense of solar input
An electric commuter car returning home at 6pm will plug into the period of highest demand and actually exacerbate the problem.
Now, if we lived in an ideal world, that electric car could:
- Charge with roof top solar when available,
- Feed into the grid during periods of peak prices,
- Top up from the grid when prices were low,
- Maintain a minimum commuting range in the batteries - 100 or 150 kms?
- Have a over-ride prior to longer trips.
Just like when cars replaced horses, we will have to develop an entire new infrastructure for electric vehicles.
Something weird is happening with electricity wholesale prices in Tasmania.
Basic economic theory says that prices are the intersection of supply and demand.
- The evening peak demand happens from 5.30 pm each day,
- It get dark in Hobart at around 5.30 pm now,
- Solar panels do not work in the dark,
- So, peak demand and no solar input, then prices should soar,
- But the pricing in these peak demand periods bottoms out,
- That bottom price is $54.28 Mwh - competitive prices always fluctuate, they are never fixed like in this graph.
Attachment 525835
Interpretation: The only explanation that I can think of is that someone is deliberately manipulating the market. But why? And who?
Explanation: The electricity producer (Hydro Tasmania), the distributor (Transend) and the retailer (Aurora) are all owned by the Tasmanian government. It could be a device to secretly transfer funds from the producer to the distributor or retailer. But why?
AAnother explanation: Is there another plausible explanation? Have I overlooked the obvious?
The big problem with any move to use cars as a battery is the lead time it takes to design and build a car and then get it to market. All the V2 stuff now coming to market was started 5 years ago and any manufacturer who has not got the facility in a BEV is now 5 years away from supplying it. The other big thing is getting it from the car to the house, to make it a worthwhile proposition means some pretty hefty supply wiring has to be installed not some 20amp wire that would supply a high capacity GPO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushmiller
ChrisQuote:
Originally Posted by Chris Parks
You are right with the supply wiring. However, up to 32a outlets are available in single phase with appropriate wiring and, of course, with three phase you can have whatever you want. It is a good point that this is all additional cost. However, it must be doable because it exists in other countries already.
Regards
Paul
GraemeQuote:
Originally Posted by GraemeCook
I agree and I can't really explain it either. I feel that it revolves around the hydroelectric production that is still the main source in Tassie. However, something does not fit there. I will try to see what is happening when I am next in at work, although I won't be able to see much more than your charts with the exception of the DC connector.
Regards
Paul
Of course it can be done but when thought about the whole V2H scenario has some real problems.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushmiller
Is it cheaper to buy a car than a house battery?
Do I choose a car just because it has some form of V2H
Would a house hold battery and a cheaper car without V2H be a more flexible solution
You might say I remain unconvinced and you would be right. I see the advantages but there are a heap of conclusions being drawn by those who think it might be a good idea. A little less enthusiasm and a lot more facts would be a good idea.
ChrisQuote:
Originally Posted by Chris Parks
You make good points and it is very easy to get carried away with the glossy blurb, the spruiking and general hype. As always, the devil is in the detail and increasingly that is light on. Also we have to remember that individual situations can vary a great deal. This bi-directional charging is not going to be for everyone!
Regards
Paul
I agree that cars are only driven for a few % of the time and they are parked at home for most of their life.Quote:
Originally Posted by GraemeCook
However, what really matters is when an EV is parked at home during solar charging hours.
If someone goes to work at 7:30am and comes home at 5:30pm they will not get any significant EV-solar charging done so if the EV battery is used to power the home ON, by end of the week the EV battery could be flat.
Even a retiree like me, especially these days, often spends a fair bit of time away from the house during the day. Yesterday I went to a gardening centre in the morning and was away from 8:00am to 10am, Then at 11am I went to a hardware store, my sisters for lunch, to the physio, and then to fuel up the car car and got home at 4pm. All up I was driving for about 90 minutes (horrible city traffic) but was away from home for 7 hours during which time any EV would not have been charging. Last Saturday I drove to Fremantle to walk dogs with my brother, then the supermarket, and in the afternoon I went to a mates place, again about 90 minutes worth of driving but 6 hours away from home.
A smallish household battery would take care of all this and keeps things simple unfortunately it's unlikely to be economical for some time, but that is probably not going to stop me from eventually going this route.
If a 60kWh battery for Mr B's car is $15,000 to replace (so maybe an even smaller cost in the new car price) how much should a 3-5kWh battery for a home be? $5k or so, allowing for some different components being required? My only objection to having a house battery as well as a car battery is cost.Quote:
Originally Posted by BobL
Re cars not being available to be charged during the day: I think that "charge while you shop" is a great marketing opportunity, and would be a pretty good way to top up or add to the car charge (one could pre-book a charging time online). The local Woolworths/Big W building here is about 170 x 60 metres, which could take a helluva lot of solar panels. That doesn't help people who are out and about all over the place, but even a 15 minute charge would be a pretty big help.
Our whole energy situation will be unrecognisable in about 5 years time.
I've never seen this addressed: what happens to a home solar system if it gets hit by lightning? We live in a high-strike area.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Parks
Chris, if you haven't looked at that page already, you may find it helpful. Not so much specs as an overview, but it spells out the fundamental differences.Quote:
Originally Posted by FenceFurniture
Yep a few $k is all they should be and hopefully that will happen in time.Quote:
Originally Posted by FenceFurniture
This works while EVs are just a few % of motor vehicles.Quote:
Re cars not being available to be charged during the day: I think that "charge while you shop" is a great marketing opportunity, and would be a pretty good way to top up or add to the car charge (one could pre-book a charging time online). The local Woolworths/Big W building here is about 170 x 60 metres, which could take a helluva lot of solar panels. That doesn't help people who are out and about all over the place, but even a 15 minute charge would be a pretty big help.
Solar panels for shopping centres makes a lot of sense to power the shopping centre itself but to power an EV in every parking spot is another level of power requirement.
Our big local shopping centre has 5000 Bays, even at just 5kWhr of charging per bay that is 25 MWhr of power, OK lets say only 1:10 are charging that is still 2.5MW, at 500 W/panel that's 5000 panels more than what the shopping centre itself will need.
I also doubt people would bother to hook up for anything less than a couple of hour for only 5kWhr charging. Might be different for 22kWhr or more but the the power/cost requirements will really blow things out of teh water.
FWIW I hate supermarkets and usually go early in the mornings eg 5-6am when there's few people around.
Yes, generally agreed Bob. I'm not suggesting that every parking spot is a charging spot though. Of course this whole landscape will change and develop over a decade and more, as tech changes and the % of EVs increases.
Brett, I understand what it is, perhaps more than most but you made the statement that V2L had less capacity than V2H and I wondered where you got the figures from. The prime vehicle quoted for this V2* is the Ford Lightening and there have been several well documented uses of it being used to power houses to a limited extent in the US.Quote:
Originally Posted by FenceFurniture
In the US it is common to have a whole of house generator usually gas powered and to facilitate its use there is automatic switching built into the installation just as described in the linked article so to plug in a V2H vehicle is not a big deal but try it here and very few houses have the needed equipment so the ability to automatically plug and forget is not easily done without that facility.
I don't know for sure why there is a low draw limit from the vehicle battery but I suspect it is because battery cooling is the issue. BEV's have quite complex battery cooling systems and if the vehicle is not being driven it might be difficult to cool the battery enough for a higher draw limit. 3600w drawn from the battery won't be 3600w delivered to the house due to losses in the delivery system and 3500w is two kettles heating water and not much else. The Atto starts at 3600w and drops to 2000w which is barely enough to heat one kettle.
If this V2H is to take off and my suspicion on cooling is on the mark raising the draw limit from the BEV will require an auxiliary plug in cooling system. The very high capacity chargers now entering the market for public use all have cooling systems built into the charging cables and it is this heating issue that is holding back even higher charging rates both in the charger and in the vehicle battery and is the same issue preventing higher loads being drawn from the vehicle in any V2* use if my assumption is correct.
I don't know how common LED lighting is these days but having it means there is a very low power draw in the house so that bodes well for using an auxiliary battery or even a house battery but some houses and mine is a prime example could not function on 3600w and I doubt I am Robinson Crusoe in that regard. Two freezers, lights, two fish ponds, appliances on standby, a large power hungry computer network, two smart TV's etc make for a large power draw. In the event of a blackout none of this stuff needs to be working but we are talking about driving a car into the car port in the evening and plugging it in to power the house at night every night and then you have to ask when is the BEV going to get charged because it is parked at work not plugged in to my solar system. Solar systems switch automatically from grid to panels and draw from both so yes the BEV will supply some power if the equipment is installed and the grid the remainder needed.
A lot of thinking is needed before the simple act of plugging in a car to a house and have no restrictions on use is the same as using a whole of house battery.
Chris, bear in mind that a large consumer of power might be told that V2H is not a total solution for them. I suspect that your power consumption is not typical (you are maybe 3x what we use), and perhaps you would need a house battery as well. I know you have detailed specs on your consumption, so maybe you can say what your maximum draw is in summer vs winter? I have just asked NCArcher what the typical maximum amperage feed is from the street to a house: "Older houses around 60A, newer are 80-100A location dependent". I guess that means that anyone who needs to draw anything above what the vehicle can put out will need to plug 2 vehicles into the system. :shrug: It's probably a fairly safe bet that any house drawing that much power probably has two vehicles, at least.
There's no universal panacea, and there will be a range of options needed (e.g. there are many many houses up here with no garage, and just the same in the inner cities)
Put this into Google: nissan leaf v2h specs
and it will tell you the output is 0-32A at peak power of 6kW (but that's only 200V)
Have a look at this site:
Bidirectional chargers explained - V2G vs V2H vs V2L — Clean Energy Reviews
It's an Aussie site, and they also have a forum, so you'll be able to ask all the questions there, I expect. They say they have no vested interest, don't sell solar equipment, and don't ask for a quote, but up the top it says "Get a quote", so I'm buggered if I know.
About 1/3 the way down it says that the new Ford F-150 has 4x 2.4kW outlets for V2L, so the batteries can obviously withstand a 9.6kW draw. I don't know how they arrange that, but perhaps they are drawing from four different sections of the vehicle's batteries.
The cooling of the car battery aspect had crossed my mind too. That is probably why V2H or V2G isn't as widely available yet because it would necessitate additional battery cooling being built into the car.
Scroll a little further down to Wallbox Quaser 2 which allows for 11.5kW at 48A (which is 240V) in either direction. Now the car battery has to also be capable of that, but they wouldn't be making a charger like that if it isn't possible now or in the very near future.
The other thing that might tell us what the battery can safely discharge is how much the car consumes. A Tesla S runs at 10kW at a speed of 110kph, which is obviously sustainable for a long time. The draw would be more (much more) under acceleration but that is only for short bursts so the battery isn't going to overheat. It's also at 350V, probably DC and a whole bunch of other things above my pay grade.
I don't know if battery heating is different for charging vs discharging, but if it can stand 7.4kW charge on single phase or 11kW charge on 3 phase (Volvo XC40 specs) then you'd have to think they could probably discharge at the same rate.
Anyway, a Tesla Powerwall can only discharge at 3.5kW as near as I can tell, so that's way under what vehicles can do. In other words, large sparks consumers would probably need 2-3 Powerwalls at $14k a pop....
Tesla BEV batteries need pre-heating before heavy discharge is possible as well as pre-heating before maximum charge rates are possible. I haven't read all the links and most probably won't as all the stuff I have read up to now here and elsewhere is speculation at best, 10 years ago Tesla was just firing up the world to the possibility of converting to BEV and just yesterday Tesla declared lithium batteries dead so any crystal balling into the future is just that, crystal balling. The V2* car fleet capable of all this speculation is decades away because lead times in the automotive industry takes at least 5 years and about that again to sell enough vehicles to make it a financial success.Quote:
Originally Posted by FenceFurniture
I have not seen anyone admit the reality of how long it will take to achieve a car fleet big enough to have any measurable effect on saving energy in a house and that depends on charging the battery from green sources. Everyone needs to get real, take a deep breath and actually think about all this V2* stuff and while that is done I am outa here.
About the same, if measured in kilowatt hours capacity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Parks
Effectively, the car is the free box in which the batteries are delivered.
Or the house batteries are in the plastic box masquerading as a gold box...Quote:
Originally Posted by GraemeCook
I asked a sparky the same question and got essentially the same answer.Quote:
Originally Posted by FenceFurniture
- Until 30 years ago, most street connections were 64 amp,
- Now, most connections have been upgraded to 80 amps.
He also said that there was a lot of bureaucracy in getting a higher connection approved for a residence as you basically had to prove that it was required for non-commercial purposes.
If you are of a mind to watch videos, this one is interesting: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bDXXWQxK38
"A New Way to Achieve Nuclear Fusion: Helion"
One of the statements contributors to this thread have made is that we should not be blinkered in our approach to future power sources and indeed should seriously contemplate that future power generation will be a multi-pronged attack.
In looking up Fence Furniture's link on lithium in the previous post I stumbled on this one regarding Thorium reactors. It clearly is not solely utilising thorium but a combination that vastly reduces the use of uranium by a factor of forty to fifty times:
(7) Forget Fusion: We have Thorium for Unlimited Energy - YouTube
Note where Australia is in the world reserves of thorium (about the 5.49 minute mark). However, there is a distinction between reserves and easily obtainable reserves.
I have long maintained a few advantages of thorium over uranium and plutonium. The following video debunks some of these (I am currently halfway through my second-best hat, which seems to be more palatable with BBQ sauce or soy sauce) and confirms others. The first 1.30 minutes seem to be a repeat of the video linked above, but then it diverges:
(7) The 5 Biggest Myths about Thorium - YouTube
I don't know if thorium can be used by itself. The videos above relate to a composite fuel. Perhaps the biggest issues with any forms of nuclear power generation are the cost and lead time for the build. Secondary are still the issues of safety, vulnerability during conflict (Zaporizhzhia is an example here), disposal of the waste (even if it is a smaller quantity) and de-commissioning costs at the end of a fifty year life cycle (they are huge with large sections not being recyclable).
It was also interesting to note that the renewables of solar and wind were projected to be significantly cheaper than a nuclear plant.
Regards
Paul
And just for a bit of balance the end of lithium batteries - YouTube
musk announces the end of the lithium battery - YouTube
And some more out there speculation, everyone is getting into the act so maybe WA are counting chickens that aren't hatched yet.
BYD Sodium Battery - YouTube
And that is only this week, god only knows what will be happening in ten year's time, maybe house batteries you can build yourself for all I know. I love BEV's and my son is a BYD service manager but all the speculation around them is just that and nothing more. Toyota, BMW and some machinery manufacturers are pushing hard for Hydrogen and they might yet be proven right for all anyone knows at this point in time.