And the UK government have already started replacing natural gas with Hydrogen. I wonder if that idea will become the second diesel fiasco in a few years.
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And the UK government have already started replacing natural gas with Hydrogen. I wonder if that idea will become the second diesel fiasco in a few years.
These two things on Wikipedia go some way to understanding the solutions:
NOx - Wikipedia
Selective catalytic reduction - Wikipedia
This one also points out pretty much the same methods:
Selective non-catalytic reduction - Wikipedia
Fast-Charging EV Batteries With Nickel Foil - IEEE Spectrum
This makes for an interesting ponderance!Quote:
Fast-Charging EV Batteries With Nickel Foil
New tech enables standard EV batteries to charge to 70 percent capacity in 11 minutes
.....
For instance, a conventional long-range EV with a 120-kilowatt-hour pack that requires an hour to recharge could be replaced with an EV with a 60-kWh pack capable of 10-minute fast charging while preserving a very similar travel time during long-distance trips.
why do the always leave out the actual electrical specs required to do that level charging though? I mean do they need 6 or 60kw of power to do the 10 min charge? I think people are ok with elec vehicals now, whats going to hold them back is the infrastructure trying to get the power to them.Quote:
Originally Posted by woodPixel
There is a sneaky link right at the bottom :)Quote:
Originally Posted by havabeer69
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41586-022-05281-0
and the full 16 page PDF.
If you have trouble with their paywalls etc, use "Bypass Paywalls Clean"
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An article on the hype surrounding Hydrogen in transport
What’s more efficient? Hydrogen or battery powered? (volkswagenag.com)
>With the hydrogen-powered electric car, the losses are significantly greater: 45 percent of the energy is already lost during the production of hydrogen through electrolysis. Of this remaining 55 percent of the original energy, another 55 percent is lost when hydrogen is converted into electricity in the vehicle. This means that the hydrogen-powered electric car only achieves an efficiency of between 25 to 35 percent, depending on the model. For the sake of completeness: when alternative fuels are burned, the efficiency is even worse: only 10 to 20 percent overall efficiency.<
Does it matter? Or why are people obsessed with fast charging?Quote:
Originally Posted by havabeer69
Most people will come home, plug their electrical vehicle in and will want it charged before they drive away the next morning, 10-12 hours later. When away from home, they may need a fast charge and then they will go to a commercial charger.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GraemeCook
Graeme
It is difficult to say exactly how charging patterns will pan out. It may be given that a large part of renewable power will be solar so that where possible motorists will try to take advantage of off-peak, which will now be through the middle of the day. If retired there will be no problem as you will plug in at a time to suit, but if at work (and not working from home), charging your vehicle at the best price and competing for a charging spot with all your work colleagues may be more problematic.
I expect it will get sorted.....eventually.
Regards
Paul
Probably right, Paul.
But in the short to medium term, there will probably be "excess thermal power" continuing to be available in the midnight to 6.00 am slot. Those stations do not ramp up and ramp down as quickly as demand!
It's not so much the fast charging, but the access to ANY power for many people, such as high-rise dwellers where there is no power available in the community garage (or there is no garage), or people who have to park on the street in the inner city (even here, as we do). People having to run stupidly long cables down the outside of buildings so they can charge their vehicles. Fast charge (at a servo or similar) for such people becomes paramount, but it will also wear out the battery faster - lithium batteries like slow charging mostly, but that may change I guess. I only use a USB-C charger on my phone if I need fast juice and don't have the time for a trickle.Quote:
Originally Posted by GraemeCook
Edited for clarity.
Sorry, but you have lost me FF.Quote:
Originally Posted by FenceFurniture
Cannot see how you can connect a fast charger to a "stupidly long" extension lead - surely it is limited to 10 amps, perhaps 15 amps in some cases.
Appreciate that people without a car park with a powerpoint do have a problem; they will have to rely on commercial charging stations, like servos.
But would any rational person buy an electrical car if they did not have somewhere to park it? Trying to think of something clever to say about smart chargers and less smart owners!
I'm not connecting them Graeme, I'm saying forget about fast charging, ANY charging is a problem for some people.Quote:
Originally Posted by GraemeCook
and that therefore:Quote:
Originally Posted by FenceFurniture
in a fast charging station somewhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by FenceFurniture
Original post slightly edited for clarity.
I think everyone is forgetting some really important aspects of how anything is implemented in life.
The infrastructure for anything new isn't available 100% as of Day One.
When cars were first created, one bought their fuel in tin cans that were opened with (what looked like) a can-punch. It was a big deal. There were no "service stations", nor anyone to change the oil.... it ALL had to be arranged. Fuel was order in. In a way it was cute, but terribly inconvenient.
Same with internet. Who here DIDN'T struggle with a 28.8k (or 14.4k) modem and cursed Telstra and their copper pair lines?
A town is created, it didn't just pop out of the earth like a game of Command+Conquer or SIM City.... it was dirt roads and dirt footpaths and no water (but your own tank) and a hole out the back for the Outhouse....
The same will go for this infrastructure.
Ive no doubt the network will be built at a speed that we will boggle at in 5 or 10 years time. We'll look back and see that all the "Yeah But..." arguments were just negative naysayers. Have a little vision!
If there is doubt, I look at China, which I sort of love (not the goddam CCP though). Over there the city electric infrastructure is positively space-aged compared to here. Electrification is EVERYTHING.... electric "city cars" sell like CRAZY... electric scooters are 100% of sales and they can't make them fast enough. If people need to go a long way, they catch a high-speed train that goes at 360km/h.
We are positively prehistoric with our namby-pamby rear-view politics. The last government has positively squandered the opportunity to be "the lucky country". So many HUGE opportunities lost.
People will work around all this arm-waving I'm reading here. Its not the end of the world. The early adopters will take the pain, as they always do, find wild solutions with improbable hacks, and in the end it all catches up for "The Ordinaries".
I suspect, however, that the rapid changes we are seeing in the environment are going to galvanise us as a species to change how we do EVERYTHING and the capitalists will either capitalise on it (or hide in a hole) or the government will simply do it and charge appropriately (as it bloody well should).
(edited slightly for clarity and spuling erras)
There was even a time before cans when petrol was only available from pharmacist in 500mL glass bottles. Each pharmacist would only stock a few bottles so drivers would have to do a crawl around to all the pharmacies in a town to fill upQuote:
Originally Posted by woodPixel
Thats fine until the government says that by 2032 no more combustion engines will be sold in the act, i hope in less then 10 years the state (sorry territory) has worked out all the kinks of owning elec vehicles to promote the start of 100% uptakeQuote:
Originally Posted by woodPixel
"Sold" as opposed to "be able to be registered" could be different. The devil is always in the detail.Quote:
Originally Posted by havabeer69
We have the staggering capacity to build epic solutions, but sit on our hands.... happy to dig up rocks for yet another hole in the ground.
Meanwhile in China....
China to break its own record: World’s new largest wind farm could power 13 million homes
This one is 43.3 GW (~13 million homes)
Jiuquan Wind Power already generates 20 GW.
Fujian Province is building one of 50 GW.
This is epic. Imagine what will happen to industry when this super-cheap power comes online.... it will absolutely explode. China is placing itself firmly as an absolute world leader in renewables. Yes, they have a horrible past and pollute like crazy - BUT that is OUR pollution exported to them by us outsourcing our production.
While we point the finger an accuse China of environmental heresies (which is complete hypocrisy) they are building project like this. Epic, giant, amazing, awesome projects.
Food for thought!
Imagine what we could do with 45GW of energy offshore of Sydney... or Melbourne.... or Brisbane..... or Perth....
Monster desal, monster inland freshwater projects, green mining, monster smelting operations, hydrogen up the wazooo.....
Such a vision.
Sounds impressive but the key words that stood out to meQuote:
Originally Posted by woodPixel
“And because of the region's distinctive topographical features and windy location, these turbines will be able to run between 43 percent to 49 percent of the time,”
Is this achieving any more than what our current solar systems are doing ? I would imagine that the cost per watt would be substantially more than what our solar does as well.
My overall general understanding ( and happy to stand corrected) is that we have basically already hit saturation levels with intermittent renewables and we are looking for a replacement base load solution to be able to move forward
Is that no more ICE cars period or no more NEW ICE cars?Quote:
Originally Posted by havabeer69
BobQuote:
Originally Posted by Beardy
Solar has two limitations in sunshine and night time (I suppose that is the same thing really) and it can never work, by itself, at night. Wind on the other hand can work at any time of the day or indeed at no time of the day: I know this all sounds obvious, but it has to be windy and the wind strength varies. That percentage is an average and consequently is an unreliable figure. You cannot rely on approximately half your capacity all of the time. You may have 100% when there is no market for power and conversely close to 0% when the market is desperate.
It is true to say that most forms of power have some restrictions: For example coal fired power plants, to achieve full load rely on drawing a certain amount of backpressure in the turbine, which is developed in the condenser. In hot conditions, when arguably demand is greatest, the backpressure will rise above optimum design and the only solution is to reduce load. It may mean that a thermal station is now operating at 90% of rated capacity.
You are correct regarding the renewable status. Storage is now the issue: Arguably bigger than the orginal shift towards renewables.
Regards
Paul
We have spoken at length regarding the price structure of the wholesale electricity market, but it seems there was an aspect of which I was certainly unaware. It seems as well as contracts and the spot market there is another form of contract, which in the article below is referred to as hedging (I had thought that was effectively the nature of the contracts too), but it is negotiated by an intermediary. I have to say I am not quite clear as to exactly how this all evolves as the intermediary seems to have a degree of liability. If that is the case it is not as if the intermediary acts as a broker.
A key part of Australia's electricity market is in meltdown and it's bad news for your power bill (msn.com)
My previous understanding was that electricity retailers and large industrial consumers dealt directly with the trading arms of the power generators. This aspect in the article is new to me: I must get out more!
I did take this extract from the article and I believe it is why some retaillers, who did not have contracts and relied on spot prices have gone to the wall.
"If you don't hedge then you're exposed to the spot price, which can go from minus $1000 a megawatt hour to plus $15,000 a megawatt hour.
"And that can change every five minutes.
"So, some extreme ranges in pricing.
Regards
Paul
This news has some interesting factors.
Imagine a big tank of hydrogen, generated from renewables and stored for the down periods...
Could this be scaled into a mass household/suburb/town scale?
Very curious!
Volkswagen develops hydrogen car that can travel 2,000 kilometers on one tank - Ruetir
I just learned that hydrogen is stored and transported as ammonia! How excellent!
this is the hardest part I believe, is generating enough power to make bulk hydrogen as well as the large energy cost to make the ammonia.Quote:
Originally Posted by woodPixel
better off just using the electricity from renewables in your house then trying to burn hydrogen
I can remember buying VB like that, in the days before rip-top cans, and you needed a can opener to access your VB.Quote:
Originally Posted by woodPixel
We were in China a little before they locked down, and I can confirm that WP is not exagerating. There are a lot of electric cars including Teslas and Chinese brands. The vast majority of motor scooters and motor bikes are electric, including Vespa, BMW and Harley-Davidson lookalikes. It is truly weird seeing a "Harley" that is silent! As everyone knows, Harley's are famous for converting petrol into noise without the side effect of horsepower, but not in China. The "Harleys" are truly silent and the logo on the fuel tank is in Chinese.Quote:
... If there is doubt, I look at China, which I sort of love (not the goddam CCP though). Over there the city electric infrastructure is positively space-aged compared to here. Electrification is EVERYTHING.... electric "city cars" sell like CRAZY... electric scooters are 100% of sales and they can't make them fast enough. ....
哈雷戴维森 = Hāléi Dàiwéisēn = Harley-Davidson
For those who agree with Toyota & BMW concerning ICE motors fuelled by Hydrogen this is an interesting watch. I have seen a video showing electric vehicle only cities in China but the most interesting thing about China is the massive production effort they are putting in to monopolise the majority of the BEV market world wide.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJjK...eringExplained
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0P7fTPLSMeI&ab_channel=FullyChargedShow
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qO2d9FpBzDI&ab_channel=CNBC
An interesting pilot development at Kogan Creek for hydrogen production:
Kogan renewable hydrogen project given the green light
Regards
Paul
Quote:
Originally Posted by havabeer69
Quote:
Originally Posted by FenceFurniture
FF - You mean that people in Canberra will travel all the way to Queanbeyan to buy their cars?
One will buy it online and it will DRIVE ITSELF to your home :)Quote:
Originally Posted by GraemeCook
This video opens up some very interesting facets to this whole topic of electrical generation/distribution and the consequence of EV vehicles and taxes which is something that I had not thought about
The reality of living with an EV that nobody talks about !! - YouTube
I only scanned through that vid (he takes 17 minutes to say what can be said in 2 or maybe less). One part that I saw was talking about a potential cost of 30 pounds to charge up (from absolutely dead flat). With petrol approaching 2 pounds a litre now, that makes a 65 litre tank about 120 pounds to fill, so about 4x the cost of a charge.
We were discussing that (charging difficulties) within this very thread a little over a week ago, and the conclusion is that the electrical infrastructure is a WIP, just as a petrol infrastructure was 100 years ago. Every new tech has to develop, but that doesn't mean there is a reason to not develop it.
It'll be interesting how the take the fuel excise tax and apply it to EV
can only assume it'll just be a big slug onto your rego.
Don't know. Fuel Excise is a Fed tax, and Rego is State, so they may need some other way through. I suspect there will have to be a substantial rethink on some (or many) aspects of taxation.Quote:
Originally Posted by havabeer69
So right. They will have to do a really big re-think.Quote:
Originally Posted by FenceFurniture
If you add up the total taxes collected by both state and federal governments from cars - import duties, fuel tax and rego - you get a big number which is about twice what the governments collectively spend on road construction and maintenance. ie Cars are a significant part of geberal taxation.
And electric vehicles, at the moment, are about subsidies rather than taxation.
A real big think is needed, and must happen.
Whatever tax formula they come up with will have to take into account that there will still be a very large percentage of heavy vehicles using diesel, the EV cars/bikes/light trucks that charge off the existing grid, BUT how do you arrive at a formula for those who are NOT on the grid and have their own self sufficient system and charge their EV's off that.
All good questions, Ray.
And I think that is critical - they are questions.
The element of general taxation on vehicles is so ubiquitous, I do not think they can do the taxing largely through electricity tariffs - a total re-think will be necessary.
There are State taxes in fuel as well.
Ray I don’t think they will care if your EV is self sufficient. I think the government just wants general tax revenue and the way they went about it with ICE cars will need to change so they dont miss out when the trend changes
They will get us one way or another
I agree Beardy but tax's is the only real source of income any gov't has to pay for their lifestyle and what they dribble out to us, but my point is how do you develop a taxing formula that is at face value equatable and not onerous for any particular section of the transport/commuter population. This scenario needs to be worked/researched/developed on now as what ever system is implemented will also have a profound effect on the type/size of vehicle that will be purchased as well as what the manufacturer is prepared to invest in and market.
Perhaps it will be simple?
Do it at rego time, one must report Kms travelled if electric and one is charged $c/Km
??
Whereas taxes are collected at the pump for piston vehicles, electric ones (manually) report their travels monthly/quarterly, just like we get our electricity bills now? Pay monthly/quaterly/yearly....
No doubt the Ze Gov will compel EVs to use some sort of automated data reporting (via inbuilt 3/4/5G)*
* I have a 3G/4G tracking and immobiliser now in the car, which uses a $10 per year Amaysim SIM and SMS. Its pretty nifty. The link is an example. I can send it SMS commands to immobilise and it sends SMS if it goes outside a pre-set perimeter.
Victoria already charges ev owners by the km
EV at 2.6c and plug in hybrids @2.1c.
Self declared with reg renewal.
"to compensate for loss of petrol tax"
Although they still kindly offer $100 annual rego discount..