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I'm not sure about the comment that the "machine does all the work". From my experience, most equipment that fails in-service testing fails before it reaches the PAT. I'd guess about 90% of failures can be picked up in the visual inspection phase.Quote:
Originally Posted by patty
Too true Chrisp but as said before "some" of these companies send out their workers and their only job is to test and tag!! I'm sure "some" of them would not even do a Visual inspection of the equipment before testing the scary part is they only know where the plug and socket is!!! I've have sold previously PAT testers to the average Joes that come in off the street and they tell me they did a so many week course at Tafe and are now hitting the Building and construction sites.
Well , I say good luck to them if they can get the work but i sure as hell would never let them test any of my equipment!!!!
If i was paying a test and tagging company to come and test my electrical appliances I would want the peace of mind and convenience of knowing that they could fix the appliance then and there!!
Don't forget, the tag the electrician puts on an appliance is only good until he turns his back on it.
Cheers, Jack
Yes and I bet you would be paying more for that level of service.Quote:
Originally Posted by patty
I'm not exactly sure what the issue is here - you can pay to get a guy to tag and test your gear who has only done the course or you pay a sparky to do it. If a fault is found the non sparky can't fix it so you either pay for a replacement or for a sparky to fix it. Or if a sparky is doing the testing, you pay him more to fix the fault.
Either way you end up paying much the same.
The quality of the inspection should be the same and if it's not then you need to find a better test and tagger.
In QLD if you tag an item without doing the proper procedure as specified in the standarsd and legeslation... you have rocks in your head.
The phrase "40 penalty units" comes to mind.
AND...... it is worth noting that that tag I put on you item is my property.
It goes futher....In an industrial situation a log book is required to be kept and available for inspection.
Not only is it an offence to have an untaged item....you must be able to show a history of compliance.
It goes further
If there is an audit and it is found that an item was noncompliant from day one and 5 different electrical workers passed that item.......all five electrical workers can be prosecuted and fined for each individual time they passed that item as fit and it wasn't.
Th real rub and all sorts of electrical workers are not aware of this.
Not only do you have to comply with the standard on "In service inspection and testing of appliances"...which is relativly simple.......... you must also know if the item complies with a variety of relivent standards applicable to that item.
So if the fuse holder is not of a compliant type, you must fail the item.
If you could have reasonably been expected to detect any form of noncompliance with that item you are responsible.
There are quite a lot of older items that are simply not compliant in some way...but if you do not know your standards you would not know.
So if a powerdrill has a 6 inch long mains cord..... you must fail it because thereis a specific minimum length for an appliance cord.
and it goes on and on.
To do the job properly you realy need to know your stuff...... and you do not get a proper test and tag for $5 an item.
Oh here is a good one.
What do you do with an electrical item that has a removable mains cord.
Answer......the removable mains cord and the appliance must be tested and tagged and log booked seperately.
I do not know how many tines I have seen an applince with a tag only on the removable mains cord.
cheers
ok how do you tag a cordless jug?
Do you wrap it around the handle? thereby creating a safety hazard with the tag
Stick the tag to the jug "postage stamp" style in a non intrusive spot.Quote:
Originally Posted by echnidna
Hi all,
I'm new to this forum but this is a subject I'm quite familiar with.
Test & tagging electrical equipment is a significant safety improvement over not doing so. I've seen instances where it's not done properly but it's still usually better than nothing - worrying though if significant defects are overlooked as the tag creates a false sense of security (a bit like ABS in your car....)
Like any safety initiative, it won't be universally applied and it won't always be applied correctly, however most industries are starting to adopt and most tests are good.
As mentioned previously, most electrical faults are clearly visible - no PAT tester required!
Even if you don't test your electrical equipment, let common sense prevail!
Graham
in nsw its not a six week tafe course i did it 6 hrs at some private company, cost about 1k plus another 1k for my PAT tester.
did you know that the PAT tester has to be recailbrared every 3 months at a cost of $180.00.
i think is safer to test using a PAT tester then have a sparky do a visual inspection.
i cut the ends of leads if it fails, safer for everyone that way.
P.S i dont tag for a living just our own stuff or my mates who pay me by cases of beer.
The electrical testing is not a substitute for the visual inspection.
That is one of the issues that I and quite a few others have with pat testers.
There is a perception that if the item is plugged into the pat tester and it passes it must be safe...nothing could be further from the truth.
Quite a lot of hire companised have pat testers because it is percieved as being faster than manual testing.
Let me tell you that doing the electrical tests is very quick and easy and only a small part of the proper inspection process.....it actulay takes me longer to fill in the tag and the log book.
THE most important part of "In service testing of electrical equipment" is the visual inspection.
Electrical tests will not show up
insulation pulled out of the plug
cuts, burns or scrapes on the insulation
heat damaged cables or plugs
failed strain reliefs
mechanical failures in the case
correct values of fuses
The presence of insulation tape on power cords
genreal compliance of the item with regulations
and a variety of other noncompliances
Think about how long it takes to check every inch of a 30 meter power cord.
cheers
:iagree:
A sound knowledge of AS 3760 is much more important than a PAT tester.
All a PAT tester does is a high voltage insulation check, an earth continuity check and polarity checks. You can easily do these with a multimeter and a Megger. These checks are part of the in service test procedure, so a sparky certainly shouldn't tag anything based on a visual check only.
According to the standard, the test can be conducted by a "competent person" however the interpretation of this is viewed differently across the states (Qld are the most oppressive I believe)
Gaza - where did you get the info that the PAT tester needs a cal check every 3 months? I'm pretty sure that's not correct unless related to site testing and coloured tags? I would be happy to investigate if you can point to the source of your info (I have access to most electrical standards)? May be able to save yourself some cash???
Also, shop around for PAT testers, we bought a few from Rexel in Adelaide last year for a smidge over $600. Did get some discount for quantity though.
That pretty much says it all. :no:Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaza
i think that i have been mis understood,
i do both a visual inspection and a PAT test, in most cases the reason an item does not pass its inspection is due to it failing the visual inspection.
I belive that it is safer for an item to be both PAT tested & visual inspected.
We have had sparkys "tag" our gear in the past and that was basicly the sparky apprentice looking and the lead and filling the tag in.
At least when i do my own gear i visual inspect it and PAT test it. i also check things like blades being sharp & guides intact.
If i lead is damage then why leave the plug on the end for some one to use when it is clearly not suitable for use.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cobberdog
One of the major construction companies that we work for asked for the calibration certifacte every three months.
Now that you mention it i will print the AS for a refernce
Do they want a calibration certificate or just want to see it has an electrical test tag (due every three months and colour coded on sites), just like every other piece of electrical equipment used on the site? If so, can you conduct your testing off site?
If they want to see the calibration certificate, can you show them the same one which is valid for a year?
I've never heard of anything electrical (ie test equipment) requiring calibration more often than annually.
Another benefit of the meter / Megger route - they don't plug in, therefore don't require an electrical test tag!
In QLD you are required to have insulation testers calibrated every 3 months.
What is known as a regluatory calibration.
If you own a resistance standard you can do your own regulatory cal.
and have the standard calibrated every 2 years ( depending on your risk assessment)
In QLD the best place to get instruments cal is Rediquip a devision of energex.
cheers
That really is taking things to a whole new level of nanny....
Every three months today. Every 3 minutes tomorrow...... :C
Oh and thats not the half of it.
I have to have my safety harnes tested every three months too and regardles of its condition it has to be condemed 10 years after manufacture.
If my fett are over 1200mm off the ground I either have to have gard rail mid rail and toe board or wear a harnes.
I am suposed to get recertified for recusitation yearly unless I work live or am an observer for someone who works live then it is every 3 months.
cheers
I must tell the people of this Post an experiance I had a few years ago.
I was hosting a meeting of some NSW WorkCover Inspectors at my place of work, during a break we went outside for some fresh air, there was some Contractors doing some work on some signs at our Premises and they were using a Cherry Picker to get access to the signs.
One of the Inspectors noticed that a Workman in the Cherry Picker was not wearing a Harness, he called out to the Workman to put a Harness on, the Workman basically said to us to mind our business and he would get on with his job, at that point 12 Inspectors showed him there Badges and reminded the Workman of his need for a Harness. The look on the Workmans face was amazing when confrounted with this, lets say his Dry Cleaner knew how supprised he was.
He then promptly got his Harness and continued his work, bet he never forgets that day.
Regards,
Keith.
That's true soundman but where i work, we have to visually go over the cable and take any tape off, then if we dont find and visible damage we run the PAT, but if we do find damage, we still run the PAT, but change the tag to say "FAILED" and then move it to the repair area, put a "out of service" or "DO NOT OPERATE" tag on it with the fault/s, date and who put it there, so while the PAT wont dectect external damage, there should be measures to find the external damageQuote:
Originally Posted by soundman
A friend of my wife is an inspector for the state labor board. She was telling us aQuote:
Originally Posted by Keith_W
prime source of information is the newspapers.
There was a picture on the front page of our local paper showing workers finishing
up on a new theater. One was cutting metal pipe with a chop saw, no gloves or
safety glasses, in the back ground was a worker on a lift with boxes stacked on top
the railing, no safety harness and the gate on the lift basket was open.
BUSTED! All work was stopped and the entire crew was fired, The company was fined.
and the theater was three months late getting opened. All the inspections had to be
redone.
You have just showed up PAT testers for what they are.....primarily an administrative tool that is primarily devised for use by the unqualified.
This is why many of the test and tag only courses concentrate on the pat tester and not the use of a stand alone insulation tester.
If a cable came into my hands and did not pass the visual test......I am obliged ( under the QLD electricity act) to either repair it or render it safe before it leaves my sight.
cheers