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Yes and I'm sure that missing a toe or half a foot wont stop you either, but I reckon things are a lot easier with all your bits attached.
Anyway, you're a grown adult, so it's up to you what you do. Let's hope we don't one day read a post from you wishing you'd put your boots on before going out to the shed.
All the best. :)
weisy - like you, i dont let stupid things like injuries stop me from doing things.
eg, a hockey ball hits me in the chest when i was standing behind the goalkeeper. it hurt but it also stopped the goal. but i will go back and stand there even tho i know there is a big risk.
but even I think you could use a little more PPE. decent anti fog safety glasses or a faceshield protects your eyes / face. some joggers will stop splinters etc getting into your feet. those two i just mentioned are not a big inconvenience are they???
my main hate for OHS comes from sport.
firstly, at cross country club, OHS made it so you have to be over 14 to do the long runs ( 7km + ). at the time, i was 12 and was capable of doing them. this annoyed the hell out of me because i was stuck doing the boring 5km courses instead of the fun, exciting long runs.
secondly, last year or a couple back ( cant remember which year ) HNSW made a rule saying all players have to wear shinpads and a mouthgaurd. i hate wearing mouth gaurds, i cant talk properly with them in, i cant breathe properly and i cant focus properly. it effects my game too much for my liking so i hate that rule. the good thing is if i go to nationals and they are outside NSW, i dont have to wear one :D i know they protect your teeth:cool: but i still very much dislike them.
When I was not a parent, I was pretty slack about PPE - although I have always tried to deal with wooddust from power tools. I had my share of silly accidents (the worst wast the axe into the top of the left foot which only had a Volley OC on it while chopping through the roots of a tree down a deep hole), but I was young and only hurting myself.
But once the kids came along and started to want to come with Dad into the workshop, I had to make rules for them, and stick to them myself. As an adult, I could take the individualistic line like Carl, but when I'm responsible for the safety (toes, fingers, eyes and hearing, etc) of little kids, then it is a different thing. And even I am more important, because even with life insurance, the kids will need me to keep working for a few more years before they can look after themselves.
So it is on with the goggles and earmuffs for all of us (or outside the workshop for the kids - and always outside if I'm welding or spraypainting inside) when I'm using power tools, and a strict rule that no-one (repeat no-one) is allowed in the workshop unless they are dressed with shoes on their feet.
After a while using sensible PPE become second nature..
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/m...er/4652290.stmQuote:
A teenage cricketer from the Wirral died after he was hit in the chest with a ball, an inquest was told. Tim Melville, 18, collapsed with heart failure on the field minutes after the ball was bowled at the Wallasey Cricket Club player in a match last July.
http://media.www.jhunewsletter.com/m...-2244933.shtmlQuote:
Boiardi was not stabbed, shot or suffocated. He was hit in the chest by a lacrosse ball during a game against Binghamton. With less than three minutes left in the game and Cornell leading, Binghamton player Nate Kerstein shoot the ball towards the goal when it hit Boiardi in the chest, causing him to collapse to the turf. Doctors pronounced him dead by the end of the day.
http://www.tbo.com/news/nationworld/MGBRCWZLJ8F.htmlQuote:
Four-year-old Cayden pulled away from his 12-year-old brother while another boy hurled a baseball at a pitch-back net. At that moment, Cayden wandered in front of the net and the ball hit him in his upper left chest, above his heart.
He took a couple of steps forward and collapsed to the ground, gasping for breath.
A man in the park scooped up the motionless boy and carried him across a street to the family's home, where Cayden's mother spoke to 911 emergency operators.
When Pasco paramedics arrived, Cayden was unconscious, not breathing. He was pronounced dead a short time later at University Community Hospital in Tampa.
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...pagewanted=allQuote:
Eric Sopracasa, a 21-year-old University of Massachusetts lacrosse player, was participating in a routine practice last Wednesday, during the last week of the Minutemen's season. During one drill, he was struck on the chest by the ball, not an uncommon occurrence for a defensive player. The ball was not going particularly fast and seemed more like a pass than a shot, said some of the people at practice that day.
But Sopracasa, a fourth-year junior from Long Island, had been struck in exactly the wrong spot at exactly the wrong time.
He collapsed and stopped breathing; his heart stopped beating. After being revived briefly, he died that afternoon at nearby Cooley Dickinson Hospital in Northampton, Mass.
Been nice knowing you, Stirlo....
In that same article about the success of chain saw chaps in preventing CS injuries there is also another success story about high visibility clothing. from the mid 80s to 1992 there was a steady increase in both the number and % of accidents involving chain saws where the worker injured was simply not seen before the accident. In 1993 the wearing of high visibility clothing was brought in for forestry workers the number and % of accidents involving unseen workers dropped dramatically to virtually nil..
Carl, you are most definitely in line to receive a Darwin award in the near future. Best of luck with that.:brava
OH&S is a pain to the person doing the work, maybe. Though the older you get, usually the less you mind.
You need to remember that OH&S is there for a reason and it doesn't always have to be for the safety of the person doing the work. Most times workers are a greater risk to others than themselves.
As for cotton underpants. I truly hope you NEVER have to realise why they made this rule. Pulling clothing out of burnt skin is one of the most painful things you will ever experience.
Weisyboy, I disagree with most of what you have said about safety. If you think that you should decide what rules you will and won't accept, then the government should also be able to decide what medical treatment will be free, and if you will be entitled to a hearing pension, disability pension etc. As a taxpayer I do not want my taxes being wasted on people who will not follow some safety rules.
I admire you for wanting to get into the work, good on you, but there is more to life than the short term.
i have recived 3rd degree burns to 20% of my body my boxer shorts were melted into my leg.Quote:
As for cotton underpants. I truly hope you NEVER have to realise why they made this rule. Pulling clothing out of burnt skin is one of the most painful things you will ever experience.
so in other words most people are now seen before being indured instead of being egnored untill they start screaming.:UQuote:
from the mid 80s to 1992 there was a steady increase in both the number and % of accidents involving chain saws where the worker injured was simply not seen before the accident. In 1993 the wearing of high visibility clothing was brought in for forestry workers the number and % of accidents involving unseen workers dropped dramatically to virtually nil..
And you still don't get it?? Man, you are one stubborn individual. Either that or... let's leave it at that, shall we.Quote:
i have recived 3rd degree burns to 20% of my body my boxer shorts were melted into my leg.
As long as it wasn't your middle leg :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by weisyboy
Just how did that happen Carl?
One could look at it like that except the total number of accidents declined as well.Quote:
so in other words most people are now seen before being indured instead of being egnored untill they start screaming.:U
playing with fire. when i was 10.Quote:
Originally Posted by BobL
well you didnt say that did you.Quote:
Originally Posted by BobL
Go back and look at what I wrote in my post.Quote:
Originally Posted by weisyboy
"In 1993 the wearing of high visibility clothing was brought in for forestry workers the number and % of accidents involving unseen workers dropped dramatically to virtually nil.."
Do you want to an attempt at answering this one Carl?
"I assume you at least wear thongs when using a chain saw?"
[EDIT] just found a picture of carl in another thread wearing boots or joggers and ear-muffs.
http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com...chmentid=70121
Go Carl!
I think all aspects of this topic, except one, have been covered quite adequately.
That one exception is the dutyof employers, under the law, to carry out their responsibilities to their employees.
I know of several cases ( and yes they are true but I won't mention names for legal reasons) where workers' lives have been placed at risk because of flawed or non-existent oversight by bosses.
This is much more disturbing than athe arrant stupidity of those who simply will not accept good practice.
If someone doesn't care about how many limbs they have or what their life is worth that is one thing. When it effects others that is a different matter.
thias dose not mean there were less acadents it just means there were less unseen workere involved cos they were sean more easily befor the acident.Quote:
Originally Posted by BobL
i wear boots ear and muffs when milling for safety i also when i remember wear jeans because it keeps the sawdust off my legs and i can kneal more comfortably and a right glove cose the exhaust blows out on my hand and it gets a bit hot without the glove on.Quote:
Originally Posted by BobL
You sire are correct - that is indeed a valid interpretation - I saw too much missing text for my own good!Quote:
Originally Posted by weisyboy
Crikey you're 3/4 of the way there.Quote:
i wear boots ear and muffs when milling for safety i also when i remember wear jeans because it keeps the sawdust off my legs and i can kneal more comfortably and a right glove cose the exhaust blows out on my hand and it gets a bit hot without the glove on.
BTW If you want to have working knees and back when you are double your current age you might want to think about getting your logs up off the ground a bit so you don't have to kneel or bend over.
I do believe in some circumstances OH&S has gone a bit far but as has been said, it's the 'idiot factor' at work. You have to set rules for everybody that works in a particular situation.
I work in the automotive industry and the potential for injury or death is a very real one. We are required to wear eye, foot and in most places ear protection. The majority of the time injury is caused by loss of concentration. We do a lot of repetitive work and after 5-6 hours of doing the same thing you can become a little complacent and thats when things can go wrong. We've had squashed and severed fingers in places where guards were present and working correctly.
In one accident, a part became jammed in a conveyor that was guarded. Instead of hitting the E-stop and isolating the conveyor the operator prodded at the part with his finger, the part unjammed, conveyor started moving again and took his finger with it. A preventable accident.
Sure OH&S can be frustrating and at times border on insanity but in the end its all our safety at stake, wether it be you, your best mate or even your son or daughter. And thats the point.
Steven.
Jeez, you just can't tell some people.:no:
Stirlo, re the mouthguard. I know that off the shelf mouthguards are uncomfortable, but try getting one made by a dentist or dental tech. Much more comfortable and you can speak while wearing them - at least loud enough for the ref to hear you, unfortunately (DAMHIK). They're not cheap, but a lot cheaper and more convenient than false teeth or a crown.
This topic has drifted from the weird and wonderful OH&S dept to personal stupidity.
Work/play with out protection is like sex without protection.
You can get away with it some times but other times can lead to some severe consequences. :doh:
Personally I feel that OH&S is a necessary evil, I would be dead several times over without it at work... Im very safety orientated, there have been numerous deaths at my work in its 150yr history ranging from the stupidly preventable to the 1 in a 1,000,000 freak incident.
But I feel out in public it has gone too far in a lot of cases.
I can relate to that, I lost my next door neighbor a few years back because he wasnt seen by the driver of a 20T loader in a concentrates shed(dark and dusty) ... the driver I feel sorry for because he did even know it had happened until no one could find Greg and went looking for him, imagine the bloke who found him flat as a pancake.Quote:
" "In 1993 the wearing of high visibility clothing was brought in for forestry workers the number and % of accidents involving unseen workers dropped dramatically to virtually nil.."
As a result we all wear bright orange overalls with reflective stripes now... not pretty but I feel and know I am a lot safer even tho we look stupid.
Talk about 'come in spinner'.
Weisyboy has been winding you lot up for days.. :p :D
I just hope that you're right, dazz
There was a quote which was originally directed towards Americans, however I see no reason it cannot be more broadly applied...
"lets take the warning labels off everything and let the problem sort itself out"
OH&S did once have an important role, but now a lot of OH&S is to mitigate the employers responsibility rather than make the workplace safer. At work, if I log a job on a defect to get it fixed I may have the problem rectified in a month. If I can justify the same defect as an OH&S hazard then it will get fixed a couple of days after I log it. Every defect I log has an OH&S implication now:rolleyes:.
Corbs
mate, freakish things like you quoted are bound to happen...its a very small chance and its not going to stop me from getting in the way of a ball. plus i should have good enough reflexes to get a stick in the way first:rolleyes:, assuming it happens again:)Quote:
Originally Posted by silentC
i'll trust you on that one:cool: ATM, its not really worth me buying a dentist moulded one because my mouth is still growing and it would need to be replaced like every couple of months ( at least thats what i've been told ):?. lol, i get less cards with my mouthgaurd in because i cant tell the ref where to go lol:DQuote:
Originally Posted by AlexS
LOL - good thread!
does OHS have its place - of course it does, has it gone too far - of course it has.
case in point - just starting a new job, there is one day in the induction for OHS - one full day! - BTW its an office job........................... pen stabbings perhaps? dropped tissue boxes, spilt coffee? ;D
2 words
nanny state
OH&S at my work is a full week induction and thats just the site one, then you get assigned to a plant and do another... plant OH&S induction... then every job no matter how small it is has a JSP(job safety procedure)which is controlled by... OH&S!
Just read that and laughed.Quote:
For some people, retrospective abortion laws should have been introduced (especially OH&S pencil pushers).
Problem was I had a mouthful of beer... beer, work desk covered in my crud, work laptop, beer spray... should be a OH&S rule about that! :rolleyes:
No but i was and would have happily had a go. I believe at 52 my ability with a chainsaw is of a standard that i would be safe for a short "trial" if i didnt have boots with me. If i plan to use a chainsaw i wear long pants & boots but for a short "go' thongs wouldnt stop me. I would be more worried about stepping on something sharp than the chainsaw. I think a lot of people over estimate the danger of a chainsaw in capable hands.Quote:
Originally Posted by BobL
I agree with Carl OH&S is definitely necasary but it has gone overboard.
The trouble with the fire brigade, not for profit organisations etc is people with no "country" type experience move into an area and want to do the community thing and join/help but have no idea of what is dangerous and whats not. Somehow we need a system that can identify these people and train them without wasting the time of Carl and other experienced like people. Too many people are waiting to "sue" and get rich at the expence of someone else.
At home it is your decision what you do.
But at work we dont want someone putting our life at risk by giving us the option of "do that or no job" attitude. Ron Barrasi is right (Victoian advert) Worksafe sponsors football because we want all workers to come home safe to play footy and for their families to know they will come home.
Someone needs to get rid of the Lawyers and work out the c**p from what is needed.
What we have at the moment is sending small businesses broke and wasting so much time it is a joke.
David gets off soapbox
If that wont get someone going nothing will
A danger with the myriad OH&S material forced down people's throats is that all OH&S issues might be judged by the ridiculous OH&S material and all safety advice become ignored.
Some of it is great advice and reduces accidents. Many of us think we know which way is up however there is always something new and valuable to be learnt about safety. Don't bog me down with cr@p though.
I worked for Lysaght and at the time was owned by BHP Steel. Long before all this government control came into place they used to be self insured in that they didn't pay money out to an insurance company and they carried their workers compensation.
They ran a pretty tight ship and were very conscious of OHS and every site had its own OHS committees made up of employees from the various departments on the site. They had a safety officer nominated from the committee and they were responsible each day to do a brief inspection to look for any unsafe practices or any hazards that may have developed. They ran their own training and all employees had to participate. They certainly weren't over the top like some of the rules the pen pushers have put into place but on the whole each site was responsible for the OHS.
Every twelve months every site would be audited by a safety officer from BHP head office.
Now with all this in place years ago BHP still experienced some horrendous accidents.
OHS is in place to protect fools a lot of the time.
I had an incident when I was managing the branch in Tamworth when I had two men operating an 8 metre sheet metal folder which had two foot controls to operate the clamp bar which unless both foot controls where pressed together the clamp bar wouldn't come down.
Because one operator was lazy he had jammed a block of wood in his control and he would just tell the other operator when he had his end of the metal set and the other operator would position his end of the metal and then press his control. The problem was as the operator pressing the the foot control pulled his metal into place and pressed the foot control because the metal being folded was long and heavy the metal pivoted in the middle and the other operators hand was pulled under the clamp bar and ended up with his fingers crushed.
Very true however some thought should be put into not treating everyone like a fools.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry_White
Nobody likes being treated like a fool and quite often OH&S is presented assuming everyone is a fool. Even fools don't like being treated like morons. It gets many people offside thus negating it's very important aim.
I think some OH&S trainers are extremely poor choices and their appointments should be seriously questioned. OH&S training should be cherished by staff not a "here we go again" reaction.
Wood BorerQuote:
Originally Posted by Wood Borer
What you say is true and that is why I think the BHP model was so good because it involved all the staff to put it into place with help from experienced OHS people not the way they do it today.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calm
Thats the reason why China is so efficient, because they have minimal OH&S
If you want companies to be more safe you have to give them an incentive to be safe. Give them tax breaks, offer free safety training etc. If you want the economy to go forward, its all about providing incentives.
The problem with monetry incentives not to have or not to report accidents is that serious incidents are hidden which is certainly not the goal.
A mate worked on the rigs in Bass Strait quite some time ago. The overseas company who owned the rig had "fly home bonuses" and "fly around the world on us" incentives plus cash rewards for the entire shift if there were no lost time accidents.
Serious accidents happened and the injured were pushed out of sight until the end of the shift. Workers bribed medical staff not to "officially" treat the injured. Others worked under the names of the injured doing 36 hour shifts.
Not a very nice scenario brought on by sheer greed and selfishness.
Perhaps these issues could be addressed, if not, don't tempt the greedy.
We are overly regulated in the workplace IMO
but there are some drongos out there who need to be protected from themselves. Consequently OH&S works on the lowest common denominator. Its gone so far as to limit not only productivity, but also creativity. So many artforms have potential for harm, it'll result in everything but pencil drawing being banned at uni!
I know that happens, on a smaller scale at least, in the mines at Kalgoorlie when I worked there. Vouchers for local shops when a certain number of shifts reached without a reported accident. Rising scale of $$, then it started from scratch again after an accident.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wood Borer
Cheers,
Yeah they have a record of something like 100000 fingers lost in one province alone per year :DQuote:
Thats the reason why China is so efficient, because they have minimal OH&S
I do believe to some extent the cotton wool policy has an opposite effect on safety. If a scaffold has a safety tag I can't fall off etc etc.
I recently had to put up a 200mm high scaffold. Its a potential broken ankle if you stand on a hop. The issue was is 2 blokes tripped on it because you dont think consciously that you are stepping onto a box.
People think so much better about safety when they're scared.
Then theres the biological pest sprayer who rocks up to spray next door. Hes says it will be fine but continues to put his mask and gloves on.
He starts spraying and 8 plasterers run from the house next door dry reaching. Everyone in near vicinity ends up with a migraine.
There is some massive holes in safety.
In saying this the basic safety card is so disgustingly under written its a joke. Its a mind numbing piece of dribble and an appalling waste of money.
I think that its written to prevent a failure rate but if you don't pass you shouldn't be on a work site.
After all your stupidity might kill me. A lot of the time it is someone else who causes you injury.
Someone really has to write some decent curriculum for the course.
So do I write a Job Safety assessment to go the toilet?
If you ask a trainer that they wont answer it. Because as usual the law has to be tested.
Gee its good to work in an office again. Not a care in the world. Beers at lunch, no worries bout being litigated.
Someone has to bring some common sense into safety as it will eventually run this countries economy into the ground putting many people out of work.
With all the chant from employers, government, economists about how Australian workers have to compete with the rest of the world, demands of higher productivity theres an ever increasing number of people who have never done your job in detail ready to destroy productivity in a minefield of litigation and paperwork.
The Chinese must be rolling on the floor laughing at the Australian government and all the LEGO people walking around creating themselves work.
No wonder inflation is skyrocketing. It's not the cost of workers. Its the cost to do business.
Sorry to tell you this but accidents are non descriminitory when it comes to how long you are using the tool for. The odds are actually stacked against you when you are just "having a go". Your unfamiliarity with Carls setup would be no different to a new guys first day on the job. Check out how many accidents occur to people on their first day.Quote:
Originally Posted by Calm
Yep, if anything, your age should tell you to get your PPE on. This has been researched extensively finding experience can lead to over confidence and combined with reduced reaction times of the older man . . . . . . . bingo. Apparently this is most evident with older (experienced) blokes and motor bikes. "I had a Kwaka 900 for 10 years - I'll just fang around the block in my sons new 900 . . . . . . . "Quote:
Originally Posted by Burnsy
As for I'm OK while I'm having a go
The time a 6 ft length of 2" pipe fell on my foot and turned my big toe into a plum was when I just about to put my boots on but I decided to carry the pipe from the side of the house to the shed before putting the boots on.
As someone who employs a bunch of people I get frustrated every day with having OHS reg's that reduce productivity. the problem is that the day you let your guard down, that's when someone will injure themselves, and I am liable.
The fact is that most regs are developed as a direct result of multiple injuries.
A previous post mentions labelling bottles, even purified water. In my business we spray pesticides. Un labelled bottles have been a leading cause of poisoning in the industry. (worse is mislabelling - putting deadly herbicides into a coke bottle to take home to kill some weeds)
So next time you see a supposedly dumb regulation, remember that it probably arose because some dumb people actually did put pesiticide in the coke bottle, disable the safety cut out, wear thongs with the chainsaw, let the 12 year old have a drive of the bobcat, etc etc.
This would be easy if we all were responsible for consequences of our own actions. Unfortunately, the OH&S Act & Regulations state that there is a degree of employer responsibility.
As someone who manages 20+ fitters one of my biggest concerns is that one of my team will go home to their family in a worse condition than when they arrived in the morning. If they do get severely injured, then the resulting workcover investigation is a nightmare. What makes it worse is that the laws quite clearly state that I am personally liable and could go to jail in the event of a significant breach.
So, if you work for me you will wear your PPE and conduct JSA's or risk assessments, or think before you act because my family doesn't need to wear the consequences of your foolish actions. And if you don't want to then go and work for someone who cares less about your welfare.
Failure to think before you act is the no 1 cause of accidents in our workplace, and I try to follow similar methods at home. So yes, I do wear boots in the garage and get someone to foot the ladder when I am cleaning the gutter, cause getting injured sucks....
Cheers,
Tom
So what do others think about some short courses involving OH&S?
I think that some of them perhaps give a false sense of security to the learners.
For example, chainsawing is not just about operating the chainsaw safely. Merely walking to the log might be hazardous, lifting the cut pieces involves safe lifting techniques, snigging the log, making the cut pieces secure even if left on the ground so they don't roll etc etc etc.
The peripheral work can be just as hazardous however a novice with a certificate proving they are a competant chainsaw operator after completing a 1 day chainsaw course could be under the impression they are bullet proof.
Most of us would draw on a string of life long experiences and package these experiences as common sense and even then still come undone. What chance has the confident newly certificated novice got?
I am not knocking the courses, I think they are good but there are flaws in the system which would be great if they were addressed. I have no suggestions on how to address them.
Having said that, I am about to cut up a tree that fell down last night, it is on steep terrain and will probably have to be winched out. If you don't hear from again - ignore all my previous advice.:B