brick piers??????

Shelly
I've searched for and read a few of your other posts

this is how you come across to me

• you have a block of land located in an area with reactive clay soil
• you want to value add by building a house on the block — good on you
• you intend selling within the minimum period allowed by the tax office to avoid capital gains tax, and the insurance company, after the house is finished — if you are living in the house during the final fitout does that period count towards the tax office's 3 months minimum occupation?
• you are so under capitalised it's not funny, remember
  • the $100 toilet?
  • your statement "we looked at a kit home but it's too expensive"
  • readymix is too expensive, so we'll mix it ourselves
• you are using this forum to make up for lack of knowledge / experience in building — nothing at all wrong with doing so, seeking and sharing information is what brings us all together
• you are drawing your own plans or have a student working the drawing program for you — the questions you are asking would be covered on plans prepared by any competent architect-engineer pairing practicing in the area where you want to build.
• you are half expecting the local building inspector to provide you with free advice / guidance — sorry, but any good building inspector will tell you when what you have done is wrong but is unlikely to tell you how to do it right the first time. The best you are likely to get is "that bearer is too small", "there's not enough reinforcing" you will be very lucky to get "you should use a 150 x 100, F17 bearer between those piers". It's all about liability.
• you've been offered some very good advice in respect to building the piers which you haven't as yet comprehended.
• you are goind for the cheapest foundation option witout having researched the market (into which you want to sell the property) to know if a prospective buyer prefers slab on ground construction.

My considered advice to you is
• talk to a few local real estate agents to find out what sorts of houses sell quickly or easily
• find a local architect-engineer pairing familiar with your area, soils and council and PAY them to produce a set of proper plans for you that are suitable for submission to council and contain the detail you need to meet BCA (and BASIX?) requirements.

Then you will be in a position to get quotes for various aspects of the work or to commence construction yourselves.

oh, and don't skimp on survey when it comes to locating the house on the block — you don't want to get to the end and find you have to demolish it because it's too close to, or worse over, a boundary.


Lastly, I wont respond to

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bingoshelley

the pier placings are at 1500 down one side and 1400 down the other do you think this would be insufficent??

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ian

Shelly's journey
http://www.byohouse.com.au/forum4/viewtopic.php?t=626

Shelly, I worry about where you get your $80,000 figure from when you don't have your construction method finalised. Don't jump in to far before you get it sorted or you could be in for an expensive ride.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ian

Shelly
I've searched for and read a few of your other posts

this is how you come across to me

• you have a block of land located in an area with reactive clay soil
• you want to value add by building a house on the block — good on you
• you intend selling within the minimum period allowed by the tax office to avoid capital gains tax, and the insurance company, after the house is finished — if you are living in the house during the final fitout does that period count towards the tax office's 3 months minimum occupation?
• you are so under capitalised it's not funny, remember
  • the $100 toilet?
  • your statement "we looked at a kit home but it's too expensive"
  • readymix is too expensive, so we'll mix it ourselves
• you are using this forum to make up for lack of knowledge / experience in building — nothing at all wrong with doing so, seeking and sharing information is what brings us all together
• you are drawing your own plans or have a student working the drawing program for you — the questions you are asking would be covered on plans prepared by any competent architect-engineer pairing practicing in the area where you want to build.
• you are half expecting the local building inspector to provide you with free advice / guidance — sorry, but any good building inspector will tell you when what you have done is wrong but is unlikely to tell you how to do it right the first time. The best you are likely to get is "that bearer is too small", "there's not enough reinforcing" you will be very lucky to get "you should use a 150 x 100, F17 bearer between those piers". It's all about liability.
• you've been offered some very good advice in respect to building the piers which you haven't as yet comprehended.
• you are goind for the cheapest foundation option witout having researched the market (into which you want to sell the property) to know if a prospective buyer prefers slab on ground construction.

My considered advice to you is
• talk to a few local real estate agents to find out what sorts of houses sell quickly or easily
• find a local architect-engineer pairing familiar with your area, soils and council and PAY them to produce a set of proper plans for you that are suitable for submission to council and contain the detail you need to meet BCA (and BASIX?) requirements.

Then you will be in a position to get quotes for various aspects of the work or to commence construction yourselves.

oh, and don't skimp on survey when it comes to locating the house on the block — you don't want to get to the end and find you have to demolish it because it's too close to, or worse over, a boundary.


Lastly, I wont respond to


ian

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ok firstly ive got an architect drawing the plans now.the $100 dunny is off the books.a kit home is out of our range.the local building inspecter has given me his home phone number to ring him if i need help(country here not city so alot more helpful).i have listened to all advice i have been given over various questions in the forum,some i have taken on board some i have not but may in future.prospective buyers may want the slab and glazed windows and whatever else but we dont have the money to do that so if it devalues the house then so be it im not a magician and unfortunately i dont have a money tree.ive already been offered 195k when the house is built as new houses dont get built up here in this town anyway ( 7 in the last 10 yrs all owner occupied) that are put on market to sell.and the people interested know exactly what were building out of.and lastly i was just using this forum to get ideas about what options are open to us i should probably say in my postings ''just enquiring not gospel yet" and yes we have never built before but i know alot of people who have never even picked up a hammer before and have built their own homes so im not afraid to ask a million and one questions and have people thinking im an idiot but eventually we will get it built and im thankfull to everyone who tries to help please dont think im not listening because i wouldnt waste my time on here if i wasnt interested in what advice has been given.such as the toilet and architect.thankyou for your opinion:roll:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Burnsy

Shelly's journey
http://www.byohouse.com.au/forum4/viewtopic.php?t=626

Shelly, I worry about where you get your $80,000 figure from when you don't have your construction method finalised. Don't jump in to far before you get it sorted or you could be in for an expensive ride.

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hey burnsy the only thing about construction that hasnt been finalised is the foundations but everything else has been pretty straight forward we know were using timber frame made by truss company 3k for walls 3k for roof trusses.we have a guy coming to do the aluminium cladding 5k the plumbers doing the roof 5k windows are getting made up by a window company 3k as we made mistakes with them.plasterer is doing the plaster 2 1/2 k with our help and we are doing the interior 15k.its just these stupid foundations that were stuck on you cant get quotes when you dont even know for sure what your even going to use.the 80k is pretty spot on for the size house were building but budgets have a way of blowing out so we will deal with that when the time comes.plus plumber and electrician and all the bits and pieces.but im sure were going to make heaps of mistakes along the way which is why im trying to get as much info as i can before we get into it to try to minimise those mistakes.thanks for your concern burnsy much appreciated:;

The pad depth is as per the soil report.
The pad min. thickness & width is as per as1684 to suit the pier spacings etc
The width of the pad is increased to suit the pier size ( only so the bricks have full bearing )
This is not an uncommon construction method in Tas.
The tie down is possibly the weak point so take the rod down into the concrete pad - you can't rely on the mortar mix for uplift strength.
The termite shielding needs to overhang the pier by 25mm.

Give up shelley while your still ahead. I have seen many projects like yours start but never finish.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ausdesign

The pad depth is as per the soil report.
The pad min. thickness & width is as per as1684 to suit the pier spacings etc
The width of the pad is increased to suit the pier size ( only so the bricks have full bearing )
This is not an uncommon construction method in Tas.
The tie down is possibly the weak point so take the rod down into the concrete pad - you can't rely on the mortar mix for uplift strength.
The termite shielding needs to overhang the pier by 25mm.

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thx ausdesign i have been told we have to go 1mtr deep and 150 more then the bricks for the pad footing.good point about the tie down rod ill make sure we do that.thx for your help:U

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thebuildingsurv

Give up shelley while your still ahead. I have seen many projects like yours start but never finish.

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im sure most builders would love owner builders to crash n burn as they would have more work but giving up isnt an option for us but thx for your concern:U

hello,

and one can look to seek.com.au to continually see the advertisements from the likes of metricon, porter davis, burbank, ravida and engelhart for handyman/maintenance positions

I wonder what these maintenance crews do?

go for it bingo, building is not difficult

thankyou

myla

Shelly

these are my sums

someone has suggested that they would buy the new house PLUS the land for $195k

what did the land cost you?
what are your holding costs? i.e. the interest you have paid, and are yet to pay, on what you paid for the land — even if the land was free or bought with cash you should still factor in the interest you have forgone by not sellinmg the land and depositing the sale price in the bank (current bank interest rates are >6%)

cost of the land = $50k (it's a guess)
your estimate of 80k x 1.5 for contingencies = $120k (I like being conservative early on, that way you mainly only get pleasant surprises)

Total $170k
plus say $10k for holding costs

say you sell for $195k, then your profit is $15k (after tax)

between you, you and your partner will probably invest 2,000+ hours in the project (the reno across the road is currently being painted, building work started last June)

your earnings equate to less than $7.50/hr
appart from the experience will it be worth it?


if you're answering yes, good luck



ian

Quote:

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Originally Posted by myla

hello,

and one can look to seek.com.au to continually see the advertisements from the likes of metricon, porter davis, burbank, ravida and engelhart for handyman/maintenance positions

I wonder what these maintenance crews do?

go for it bingo, building is not difficult

thankyou

myla

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thank you myla i also dont think its difficult just technical cheers shelley:U:U:U

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ian

Shelly

these are my sums

someone has suggested that they would buy the new house PLUS the land for $195k

what did the land cost you?
what are your holding costs? i.e. the interest you have paid, and are yet to pay, on what you paid for the land — even if the land was free or bought with cash you should still factor in the interest you have forgone by not sellinmg the land and depositing the sale price in the bank (current bank interest rates are >6%)

cost of the land = $50k (it's a guess)
your estimate of 80k x 1.5 for contingencies = $120k (I like being conservative early on, that way you mainly only get pleasant surprises)

Total $170k
plus say $10k for holding costs

say you sell for $195k, then your profit is $15k (after tax)

between you, you and your partner will probably invest 2,000+ hours in the project (the reno across the road is currently being painted, building work started last June)

your earnings equate to less than $7.50/hr
appart from the experience will it be worth it?


if you're answering yes, good luck



ian

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ok land cost 7.5k and all up with the land ive estimated 80k we dont have to borrow anything we will be paying cash for the lot.so even if it took 2yrs to build bottom dollar is we walk away with 200k so from renting in melb 3 yrs ago with not a cent to our name and going nowhere to 5yrs later with 200k and owing nothing to anyone i think thats a pretty good job personally.there is no way on this earth that we could of saved 200k by still renting in melb we couldnt save 10k as for our time well it beats sitting on our butts watching tv.absolutely no work up here unless your a local.in 3 1/2 years hubbys had 3mths solid work and heaps of other jobs collecting turkey eggs rounding up chooks working in the aboitoir shovelling wheat ect..we even opened a $2 shop trying to get an income but no support from the town people so we closed the doors after 8mths.so we have been trying very hard to be self efficient but very hard in a town of 750 people.building the house is our last option to be self sufficent,moving back to melb isnt an option as rents are ridiculous there now.so unless we wanted to be a burden on the system for the rest of our lives (which we dont)then building is the option for us to set us up cheers shelley:no:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by myla

...............go for it bingo, building is not difficult.................

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While building is not rocket science and a good tradesman makes any job look easy it is in fact difficult if you don't have any training or experience. Watching home reno shows on telly does not count as experience. Asking questions here may help, but it won't prepare you for the reality of actually building a house. If it's so easy then why do I see so many unfinished or badly finished/built/designed/executed owner built projects around?

Mick

Best thing to do is ask other people their experience in spec building. If their truthful enough they'll tell you that the only money they made was the land value increasing.

They would have been better off just selling the land.

Banks cant sell half finished houses.

Right now theres a bunch of people watching their negative capital build.
Do some research into the owner builder liability and you may find you cant sell for a year depending on where you are. You will have to get indemnity insurance if you sell.

Building may not be rocket science but the law and legislation that goes with it is.

You'll find many trades just get builders to build their house.

It may sound negative but do the research. Ask around.

You may well pull it off. Do an owners builders course "at least"

ok guys thx for all the advise ive got the answer to my questions and much appreciate them cheers shelley

I would suggest if you are trying to say money use concrete stumps. The concrete alone for the method above will cost a couple of grand.

hello,

the issue is many people have unrealistic time frame and cost of building a home, which affects people if renting or holding costs

many owner-builders chose "difficult" building products, the most important thing is to get the shell up quick smart,

many project homes now adays take alot of time to build as well, even with builders running the show,

even during the 7yr warranty period for an owner-buiulder or builder built home the building-sureveyor is now becoming an integral part of the claim/compensation process if it arises,

some reading:

http://www.feg.com.au/papers/Update%20604.html

thankyou

myla

Personally I think there should be a obligated attendance federal based inspector visit at 3 stages of construction during renovation and new homes.

1. Footings/concrete pour
2. Roof stage prior to plastering
3. Lock up

In the UK inspectors check each stage of the process advising trades and builders what they require. A built in form of quality control.

A check box form/report on a standard range of requirements.

This would prevent a lot of the current issues that go to court ending in tears.

This would prevent a lot of the dodgyness that goes on now.

If a Trade or Builder feels the need for an inspection they call out the inspector.

Its too late when a builder shuts down a company and opens up another or a builder uses another builders ticket of a bloke whos on his death bed with offshore accounts

Quote:

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Originally Posted by journeyman Mick

While building is not rocket science and a good tradesman makes any job look easy it is in fact difficult if you don't have any training or experience. Watching home reno shows on telly does not count as experience. Asking questions here may help, but it won't prepare you for the reality of actually building a house. If it's so easy then why do I see so many unfinished or badly finished/built/designed/executed owner built projects around?

Mick

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hi mick i dont expect it to be dead easy just alot of hard work its the technical side thats hard to understand at times.as for owner builders stuffing up if you watch aca youll know that their are heaps of builders out there shafting people by cutting safety corners and not finishing the jobs and alot more then owner builders.if it takes 2-3yrs to finish then its better then renting in the end i have no intention of risking the lives of others to save a few bucks but if i can save a few bucks without compromising safety then we will do it ourselves.:U

Quote:

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Originally Posted by autogenous

Personally I think there should be a obligated attendance federal based inspector visit at 3 stages of construction during renovation and new homes.

1. Footings/concrete pour
2. Roof stage prior to plastering
3. Lock up

In the UK inspectors check each stage of the process advising trades and builders what they require. A built in form of quality control.

A check box form/report on a standard range of requirements.

This would prevent a lot of the current issues that go to court ending in tears.

This would prevent a lot of the dodgyness that goes on now.

If a Trade or Builder feels the need for an inspection they call out the inspector.

Its too late when a builder shuts down a company and opens up another or a builder uses another builders ticket of a bloke whos on his death bed with offshore accounts

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we have that here to inspecters have to come check holes check the frame and then final check for occupancy certificate.if any problems are found at any stage then they have to be fixed before any more building work is underway

Quote:

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as for owner builders stuffing up if you watch aca youll know that their are heaps of builders out there shafting people by cutting safety corners and not finishing the jobs and alot more then owner builders.

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I don't think anyone is suggesting an owner builder would be deliberately negligent. It would be through ignorance of building practices that things will go wrong.

Attachment 70890 This is a subfloor i inspected that was owner built.

hello,

and so the owner-builder gets told to rectify, I just hope the same processes are followed thru for builders,

the court case I highlighted was also at a time whereby many thought the "builder" had total responsibility for anything, and as people took things to court they questioned the surveyor

a similar case went through with burbank homes whereby the surveyor also was held responsible

thankyou

myla

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thebuildingsurv

Attachment 70890 This is a subfloor i inspected that was owner built.

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:roflmao: See, Mick said it is easy.....:U :rotfl:

Hi Bingo, If it were me, with the benefit of many OB and renos behind me, I would go for the slab onground option.

I've checked out your other posts and looked at your pics on other sites.

My reasoning for suggesting this is that deep footing stumps and associatted subfloor construction uses up about 3 times the labor of putting down a slab (on level ground). If you can lock in a slab price about what you stated then with only 25% of the budget you get the foundations, plumbing sanitaries, concrete floor, wall frames, and maybe roof trusses as well. that sounds pretty good to me!

A timber type floor is going to take about 2 months to get done if just one or two people are working on it - it will also require some pretty precise setting out.

So many times new builders , renovators underestimate the most vital resource needed for building work - Their own ENERGY. At the start most of the energy comes from enthusiasm and eagerness for the project. But as things start to drag and the muscles get sore, then the emotions kick in and energy levels drop off. Minor injuries, things like minor back problems, hammerers wrist, repetitive strains and minor ailments like a simple cold all begin compounding to make the work physically tiring.

And so I suggest the slab option will advance the project dramatically and preserve energy levels further into the project. You'll get out of the ground quickly and into the air and shapes and spaces will happen fast.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thebuildingsurv

This is a subfloor i inspected that was owner built.

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Don't you mean sub-standard floor? :o

Mick

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dirty Doogie

Hi Bingo, If it were me, with the benefit of many OB and renos behind me, I would go for the slab onground option.

I've checked out your other posts and looked at your pics on other sites.

My reasoning for suggesting this is that deep footing stumps and associatted subfloor construction uses up about 3 times the labor of putting down a slab (on level ground). If you can lock in a slab price about what you stated then with only 25% of the budget you get the foundations, plumbing sanitaries, concrete floor, wall frames, and maybe roof trusses as well. that sounds pretty good to me!

A timber type floor is going to take about 2 months to get done if just one or two people are working on it - it will also require some pretty precise setting out.

So many times new builders , renovators underestimate the most vital resource needed for building work - Their own ENERGY. At the start most of the energy comes from enthusiasm and eagerness for the project. But as things start to drag and the muscles get sore, then the emotions kick in and energy levels drop off. Minor injuries, things like minor back problems, hammerers wrist, repetitive strains and minor ailments like a simple cold all begin compounding to make the work physically tiring.

And so I suggest the slab option will advance the project dramatically and preserve energy levels further into the project. You'll get out of the ground quickly and into the air and shapes and spaces will happen fast.

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yeah thx doogie trust me if we had the money that is definately the option i would go for the next house will definately be done this way and by more tradies.unfortunately we dont so we have to do it the hard way i know everyone has said it will save time not to mention the physical aspects but time is a luxury we do have money isnt.so many fights with hubby coming up lol thx for your help

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thebuildingsurv

Attachment 70890 This is a subfloor i inspected that was owner built.

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thats beyond bad but not all owner builders are like that most go above and beyond the australian standards ive seen the same results with builders doing the job.i think its up to the individuals standards on wether they want to do a perfect job and as i said im not interested in jepordising peoples lives by cutting corners:U

."so many fights with hubby coming up"

- another energy draining activity.

I just ran a few figures through my estimating tables. You are trying to build about 127 sq mtr of house.

materials only, 1 bathroom 1 kitchen, alum siding,steel roof, 30% alum window, gyprock lining.

Slab on level ground construction @ 550 mt2 = $69850

Stumps and treated timber subfloor with chip floor @ 740 mt2 = $93980

Every calculation I make indicates a timber subfloor with stumps is significantly more expensive on materials only basis.

Quote:

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most go above and beyond the australian standards

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That assumes they know what they are :wink:

Quote:

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I don't think anyone is suggesting an owner builder would be deliberately negligent. It would be through ignorance of building practices that things will go wrong.

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Its amazing what people will do when they start running short of money.

So many jobs end up unfinished when there is not a solid strict budget + an unforseen margin.

Guessing is not an option. Know every little cost before you start.

Tracking a budget daily is absolutely compulsory.

Bingo, all the input should be taken as constructive. Most of the members replying have vast experiences in both new & reno work.
If you feel you can handle the project, I would press on.
The main thing to remember is at the end of the day the buck stops with you so make sure you research each stage & get qualified advise.
I take it from your posts that you've had the plans drawn professionally & that the 'stump' issue was an item that you were not sure of.
I'd be concerned that your designer did not point you in the direction of using timber or concrete stumps, but I assume that the idea of brick piers was yours to try & cut down on costs. I am equally concerned that you mention, I think it was 150mm of concrete past the pier, for the footing. The concrete needs only to provide full support under the bricks - & meet the required pad dimension for the load. [ less concrete]
You mention, if I read it properly, that the designer could get design comp's for the piers which also worries me as this is not necessary unless I'm interpreting the project incorrectly.
At the end of the day if you feel you can manage, then give it a go.
I for one, & i'm sure many others, will give assistance as you progress - as long as your seen to have done your homework & don't ask questions that show you haven't - & then you'll be crucified.

From my design manual - stumps placed into reactive clay or expansive silts must be round or ovoid and have a smooth non porous surface. The footing must also be round in plan view.

Rough surfaced materials like in situ ground formed concrete, rough sawn timber,brick or block are not recommended as they provide a friction grip for expanding earth. site soil only backfilled to half the stump depth and the remainer filled with 20mm gravel. the footing also sits on a 300mm depth of 5mm compacted gravel.

I'd like to read that manual.
Can you give details.

:no:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ausdesign

Bingo, all the input should be taken as constructive. Most of the members replying have vast experiences in both new & reno work.
If you feel you can handle the project, I would press on.
The main thing to remember is at the end of the day the buck stops with you so make sure you research each stage & get qualified advise.
I take it from your posts that you've had the plans drawn professionally & that the 'stump' issue was an item that you were not sure of.
I'd be concerned that your designer did not point you in the direction of using timber or concrete stumps, but I assume that the idea of brick piers was yours to try & cut down on costs. I am equally concerned that you mention, I think it was 150mm of concrete past the pier, for the footing. The concrete needs only to provide full support under the bricks - & meet the required pad dimension for the load. [ less concrete]
You mention, if I read it properly, that the designer could get design comp's for the piers which also worries me as this is not necessary unless I'm interpreting the project incorrectly.
At the end of the day if you feel you can manage, then give it a go.
I for one, & i'm sure many others, will give assistance as you progress - as long as your seen to have done your homework & don't ask questions that show you haven't - & then you'll be crucified.

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thx ausdesign i havnt got plans back yet or been to a engineer yet i was just trying to see what options i could use within our budget ive looked in the australian standards before posting on here and searched the net too but couldnt find what i wanted.granted some questions may seem stupid to most of you guys but im sure everybody on here at one time or another had no experience in their fields until they either went to school done it themselves or asked a million and one silly questions.what i mean is the answer to my origanal question was relatively easy eg:hey bingo its not that easy without seeing plans or having a soil test if you get an engineer to do your footing details your question would be answered by him good luck:ive noticed on several posts in here not just mine that if you dont have experience or some sort of knowledge then a few dont give you a break maybe those few should remember that they too didnt know it all when they started.sometimes i may not have explained myself properly and for that i apologize.but id rather spend hours searching this site to find my answers before i post one and cop the negativity

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ausdesign

I'd like to read that manual.
Can you give details.

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Hi peter, the manual is called "Building Design parameters in Residential and Low Rise Commercial Structures" Volumes 1 - 3 Published by Queensland University press. It is a 900 page compilation by Engineers and architects and Australian standards Association.

I believe the tome costs nearly $1K. I sort of inheritted it from a professional library and the book must be a few years old now. It has an analysis of the Threbo disaster and structural failures - so when was that?

Half of volume 3 is devoted to critical failure states where despite professional certification something horrible went wrong - a very funny section IMO.

Don't be discouraged Bingo - I was very young, pretty broke and FEMALE, but I owner built and lived to tell the tale! (Even sold the house 8 years later for a nice profit!)

That said, it really IS a lot harder than you think. These blokes made plenty of mistakes along the way, AND went to school AND asked a million and one stupid questions. They are just trying to toughen you up and help out where they can. They know what you are about to go through so listen to their advice and take heed. I know this because I live with one of them, and I know he's only trying to help!

For what it's worth, try trusting the pros a bit and get work done by them when you can. What it will save you in stress and time is well worth it plus you can learn a lot from watching how they do things! I could only afford to get the footings drilled by a bobcatter and had to get the roof installed 'cause in Qld you can't do it yourself, but it just about saved my sanity.

Also don't get too stressed about stuff until it's a problem. Don't make decisions about the stumps till you've got the plans 'cause they should tell you what you need to know.

One step at a time. Remember - a journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step!