Shellac, tell me all you know!

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I thought it might be interesting to some of you to know french polishing is also done with a pad

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If I wanted to be controversial, I'd say that it doesn't appear to me that your method as documented above is French polishing at all, but rather a type of hybrid padding method that borrows a bit from the full French polishing technique. Which is fine, because that's just as legitimate a finish as anything else but I wouldn't call it French polishing.

I have here at my desk three books that describe French polishing and all agree that "French polishing" consists of 'rubbing' the shellac into the pores of the wood using a pad called a 'rubber' that is made from some sort of absorbent core wrapped in a lint-free material. A fourth book (Jeff Jewitt), as already discussed, also describes the same method, with the exception that the author does not refer to the applicator as a rubber, preferring to call it a pad. So to my mind, the rubbing motion and the use of the rubber are integral to the technique.

Your technique of applying the shellac in straight strokes similar to an aeroplane landing and taking off is what Neil refers to in his book as 'the swooge coat'. Which is a preliminary coat that takes place prior to using the rubber. It is done with the 'fad' which ultimately becomes the core of the rubber when it is wrapped in linen.

Jeff Jewitt also describes a similar technique, which he calls 'padding shellac' where he applies the shellac using the same aeroplane analogy - but always with the grain. This is where, if I understand it correctly, your method varies from true French polishing, in which the rubber is moved in a circular pattern over the surface.

dontcha love it when a thread bottoms out and the discussion becomes over technical :D

I can't speak on a technical level because I'm a novice. I can only go by what I have read from the published experts. When there is a discrepancy between what I have read or understood and what someone else is telling me, I believe it's important to get to the heart of the misunderstanding. This is how we learn :)

Just curious,
If you dont use a rubber, how does a cloth fad hold enough polish to body up a 2 metre table without stopping half way to recharge, dont the whips harden up?
Astrid

Well Im going to add to the technical arguments by commenting that there is a marked difference in the chatoyance of the finish depending on the type of shellac in use. I bought some ruby, button, blonde and garnet flakes to see if there was a better way to do sunbursts than dyeing. I took my piece from my woodwork lesson the other night, a lap joint, aussie cedar, gave it a lick of BLO and started on one piece with blonde, the other with garnet. How I can see the difference is the depth of the chatoyance, the garnet is showing more light. This is sooooo cool. Im waiting for an opportunity to try the others now.

I also want to propose that we dont use the term French Polish as well, we arent French are we? Lets call it Aussie polish, Pommie Polish, Yank Polish, Kiwi Polish etc, etc. Do you think going to Glenbrook Polish, Moorabbin Polish, York Polish and Clinton Polish (maybe call it a Monica?) would be pushing it?
bang bang crash!..... :doh:

interestingly enough, i believe that traditionaly the french dont french polish.
astrid

And they don't make french fries either :)

I think I will stop now, because this thread is now going no where.

There is more then one way of doing things, those of who prefer Neils' or Jeff's method then do it their way.

It makes no difference to me how you do it, most of you seem to be so closed minded and don't want to think that maybe there is another way that it can be done.. Its not for me to say which is the best way, and just because it is in print it don't mean its the right, or only way that it can be done.

I wrote a one page condensed article on how it can be done, Neil and Jeff wrote a book on the subject, do you expect the same amount of information in an article as in a book?

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Originally Posted by kekemo

Shallac.... want to learn everything there is to know about it....tell me more....who ever reads this...if you know anything...

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Just another case of "Watch what you ask for, you might get it!" :rolleyes::D:D:D:D

Gee Bob...this thread worked so well ...... thinking about putting it in the personal add...you know....tallented "wood buterfly"...looking for millionaire...with woodmill....must have own coffee machine....& 4WD...with room for excess wood....willing to share....most tools...BUT don't touch the FESTO...that's mine!!!!.......>>>>>>>>LOL...workshop comes with Airconditioning & enough power points to keep Alinta solvent!
......then ask if they know anything about SHELLAC? LOL....rolf..

No, really what a fantastic thread....now I have to keep just sitting here and reading it all the time....so information sinks in....trying to get copy of book....hey...I don't mind reading on all the techniques....know I will do it my way anyway....LOL.....but, hey my way hasn't been written...and yet to be experienced!!!

Just a little worried sounded like I had WW3 going on for a while....hope no-one got to upset.....

Just wanted to keep it light...and friendly...hey...promise I won't ask anymore questions....true!

Bedbase & bedhead....coming up a treat....should finish this by Friday....:2tsup:
Cheers KEKEMO

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those of who prefer Neils' or Jeff's method then do it their way

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I don't think either of them lay claim to it as being their way.

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most of you seem to be so closed minded and don't want to think

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That's a bit rude. Apart from Jerry having a couple of comments, which I found to be conciliatory, I'm the only one who has challenged your words. So how does that extend to 'most' of us?

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I wrote a one page condensed article on how it can be done, Neil and Jeff wrote a book on the subject, do you expect the same amount of information in an article as in a book?

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Jeff's French polishing section in his book covers a total of 2 pages, half of which is photos. He still manages to convey the fundamentals of the technique.

OK, ok, I will stop. :)

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Originally Posted by kekemo

Just wanted to keep it light...and friendly...hey...promise I won't ask anymore questions....true!

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Kekemo,

Whatever you do, don't stop asking questions!! That's what the forum is all about. We're all adults (mostly) here and you can't get an answer if you don't ask the question. :2tsup:

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Whatever you do, don't stop asking questions!!

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Yes, I apologise to Kekemo for being such an argumentative sod. :)

Most noticeable feature of forums and life in general is "a LITTLE knowledge is a dangerous thing." So never take what is said as absolute truth. Always question and always be prepared to try things for yourself.

I'll give an example (Not woodwork) When I was learning to fly I was told "NEVER" side slip a high winged aircraft. It will spin and kill you. So I went up several thousand feet and did it. No problem. Flying with a crop duster pilot we were making an approach and he said we'd never make the field. I said I'd side slip. A crop duster pilot gripping the dash with white knuckles? It was quite a sight to see. Then he said "Can I try it? " A professional who had never tested the boundaries.

Whatever you do, within the bounds of safety, push the limits. Make mistakes and learn.

For example in using shellac I said I rarely use abrasives. What I didn't say was when I do sometimes in the early stages I don't clean of the dust but apply another coat straight over the work. The abrasive and shellac dust fills the grain quickly. Never saw it in print, although it might be, never been told to do it. Just thought about it and felt it worth a try.

Main thing is to enjoy the forum, enjoy the debate, and don't get personal.


Jerry

Everyone is entitled to my opinion

So back to Shellac, hints and tips of applying it.:)

Sebastian, What is 'chatoyance'? Any chance some photos of your work might help demonstrate this for me? I'm very intrigued with your idea of using different shellacs for, what was it, different tonings?:?



Mixed Shellac containers - I prefer to use a glass jar with a lid size that I can fit my fist through. Preferably a short, squat jar so that I only mix the amount of shellac needed for the job and a bit more.

cheers
Wendy

Wendy,

Chatoyancy is the way the light is reflected from the finish, in other words, how the finish looks in different lights. It is borrowed from the jeweler's trade, which uses it to describe light reflection in gemstones. :)

I mix mine in old Maccona Coffee jars and I use empty U-Beaut bottles with the flip top lid to dispense it.

Jerry, I agree that experimentation is a good thing and to be encouraged - otherwise none of these things would ever have been discovered.

However I remember a conversation I had with my Dad when I was 19 and wanted to borrow $4,000 to buy a motorbike. He said "if only I could make you understand. I've been through all these things and if you'd only listen, I could stop you making the same mistakes I did". Another bloke once said "if I have seen further it is by standing on ye shoulders of Giants".

:)

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Originally Posted by silentC

However I remember a conversation I had with my Dad when I was 19 and wanted to borrow $4,000 to buy a motorbike. He said "if only I could make you understand. I've been through all these things and if you'd only listen, I could stop you making the same mistakes I did".

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Another vain hope, as I see it. I never did. Had to make 'em all meself. Did a right proper job of it too. :D

Silent,

I did say within the bounds of safety. As for standing on the shoulders of giants it can be dangerous if he gets irritable and shakes you off.
Trouble with all these wise sayings there's always a counter. Could be the subject of a thread

Faint heart never won fair lady. Look before you leap.

I know your dad when he gave advice about m'cycle was following "You can't put an old head on young shoulders." Problem is if you could do so it wouldn't fit.

Jerry

Everyone is entitled to my opinion:)

OK here's another analogy. I'm a drummer. Well, when I say that, I play drums in a band, but I have never had a lesson. I have enough of an intuitive feel for it that I can get away with it and most casual observers are fooled into thinking I know what I'm doing.

However, they might be surprised to know that I cannot do the most basic of stick techniques. Paradiddles are beyond me, as are Swiss Army triplets or any of those marching band rudiments. This lets me down badly and prevents me from being the drummer I could be, if only I knew the basics. I also find it difficult to go off beat with the kick (bass) drum.

These things are the type of technique that a few lessons when I was starting out would have instilled in me so that they became second nature. Then I could have built on these fundamentals. It's probably too late for me now, but my advice to anyone wanting to play the drums is to concentrate on the fundamentals and the flamboyance will come.

I think this applies to many things in life. :)

The Taunton press also produce a Jeff Jewitt DVD "Hand Applied Finishes" where he demonstrates French polishing. I haven't tried his method, it looks great, but time consuming.
I'd have thought the DVD is worth getting, I don't know how you could explain it properly in writing. I've got a few of the Taunton DVD's and they are all good. They take a long time to arrive if you order them from the USA, and only play on a region free DVD player.

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Originally Posted by RufflyRustic

So back to Shellac, hints and tips of applying it.:)

Sebastian, What is 'chatoyance'? Any chance some photos of your work might help demonstrate this for me? I'm very intrigued with your idea of using different shellacs for, what was it, different tonings?:?



Mixed Shellac containers - I prefer to use a glass jar with a lid size that I can fit my fist through. Preferably a short, squat jar so that I only mix the amount of shellac needed for the job and a bit more.

cheers
Wendy

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Wendy, I cant lie, I picked the term up off the forum, off a liguistically erudite Skew. Im in a conference so I'll post when I get back to BM's. I also posted straight after applying the finish and havent seen the pieces for a few days.

Thanks Sebastian! Oh, and thanks Skew :D

chatoyant
/shuh'toyuhnt/.
adjective
1. changing in lustre or colour.
2. Jewellery reflecting a single streak of light when cut in a cabochon.
[French, present participle of chatoyer change lustre like a cat's eye, from chat cat]


In woodworking it is often used in relation to a peculiar finishing problem. Sometimes an item that is matched and finished in artificial light will look completely different in natural light, and vice versa. It happens occasionally that a piece is made and finished to match another piece, but, when finally put together, the pieces do not match at all.

Hi everyone, first time post here...

Is shellac available clear or just coloured? I'm making a jewellery box from myrtle and huon pine and the shellac has made the huon much more honeyed coloured than I originally wanted... I've started with the tray so I can still back away from the shellac if I decide it's not the look I want.

Will the 15 or so coats of shellac darken the colour much further or will it remain similar to the first coat? I know multiple coats of stain will darken (obviously), kind of hoping this won't get darker but expecting that it will...

Cheers,

Pete

Dewaxed shellac or White Shellac is what you are looking for.

cheers
Wendy

Hi Wendy,

After a week there is no difference between the two pieces apart from colour, maybe a trick of the light or overtired eyes? wishful thinking?

Sebastiaan

Wierd! I will have to remember this and see if I can play around with some different brands of shellac at some stage, just for fun.

thanks Sebastiaan

Cheers
Wendy

Hopefully I am not stirring up a hornets nest, but I see that you guys all seem to mix Shellac flakes with metho.

I have been taught to use a 90% alcohol 10% shellac solution, called Shellac Finish, with the flakes, as this apparently gives a deeper finish, whereas "metho can leave it a bit cloudy".

As I have only used this method once so far and never with metho, I would be grateful if you guys can give me your opinions on this.

Jon G

As an ex pom I vaguely remember that UK meth had a blue dye mixed with it. Is that the case? If so then the dye would certainly cloud the finish. Here meth is clear, although the addition of water with the cheaper meth could affect the clarity of the finish. It's not a pun but I am asking for clarification of this dye point. I'm dying to know the answer ( terrible pun).

Jerry

Everyone is entitled to my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Jon G

Hopefully I am not stirring up a hornets nest, but I see that you guys all seem to mix Shellac flakes with metho.

I have been taught to use a 90% alcohol 10% shellac solution, called Shellac Finish, with the flakes, as this apparently gives a deeper finish, whereas "metho can leave it a bit cloudy".

As I have only used this method once so far and never with metho, I would be grateful if you guys can give me your opinions on this.

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Metho here in Aus contains 5% water, I use "Industrial Metholated Spirits" which is <1% water and recommended by the gurus. Water in the solution can lead to cloudiness. Different dilutions are used at different stages, start with a lower cut finish with a high cut.

Of course if you are drinking it you can mix to taste,

It's amazing to see for example how a usually dull wood like Blackwood will with a Shellac or Oil finish 'pop', ie. show chatoyance or iridescence. It's a quality of reflecting the light differently as it falls from different angles making the surface look three-dimensional.

btw, I have a p/c of a very old book on French Polishing and it seems way back when they mixed various gums into the mix, eg. benzoin. Wonder if they added hardness or elasticity to the finish.

Metho over here can have a dye in it, can't remember if it is blue or purple, but I believe my tutor was meaning the clear version.

Everywhere I look over here seems to sell Metho to mix with Shellac flakes, except for Mylands, who sell the mysterious Shellac Finish.

A small amount of dye is added to many solvents, this is done so they can tell which solvent it is by the color of the dye. A common chemical practice used in different solvents.

The amount is so small, you will not see it in the clear coats.

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Originally Posted by Sebastiaan56

Metho here in Aus contains 5% water, I use "Industrial Metholated Spirits" which is <1% water and recommended by the gurus. Water in the solution can lead to cloudiness. Different dilutions are used at different stages, start with a lower cut finish with a high cut.

Of course if you are drinking it you can mix to taste,

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Thanks Sebastiaan56, I will see if I can find similar here and do a comparison to alcohol. :)

Just some comments for the record, coming from someone who has just recently taken to FP, (self taught) after doing a lot of research and experimentation.

Ethanol, (which is sold in Oz as 'metho'), is formed by fermentation, and will naturally only reach about 15% alcohol. To concentrate this, it would be distilled over a rectification column. Due to the fact that ethanol forms a constant boiling "or azeotrope" mixture with water, the highest purity which can be reached like this is 95% ethanol. This is the normal "industrial metho" available. (In more modern times, most metho is manufactured by catalytic conversion, but the limitations on purity remain, for the most part.)

It is also the only "high test" metho which would have been available at the time that French Polishing was the classical standard of fine finishes.

Higher purities require technology more recent. In addition, unless kept in perfectly sealed containers, these will rapidly absorb water vapour from the atmosphere, until they also settle at 95%.

95% is perfectly suitable for all parts of shellac use. What one has to watch out for is that a lot of "metho" which is sold (through retail trade, chain hardware etc) actually carries no specification, and can be, and often is, significantly below this level. Neil has previously posted a quick test to check if metho is pure enough for shellac, in an exhaustative thread on metho last year.

I have done some looking around for "industrial metho" and where I have found it, it comes with a specification (on the drum) on 95% ethanol. By buying this, you are at least sure that you are getting material good enough for your requirements.

hope this helps

Thanks Alastair.

In Vic Mitre 10 often have or can get in 'industrial' meths made by Sceneys.

Thanks Alistair :D

One of the things I love about shellac is that you can get so many different kinds of finishes from the one product. Whether it be sprayed, brushed, wiped, rubbed or however you like to apply it, a finish like no other is relatively easily achievable. When you talk to "experts" it is often quite amusing to hear how many different forms the best method of application takes (and how wrong everyone else is).
My five cents worth is to remember it is not paint, if you try to use it like paint it will only frustrate you.
It is the easiest polish to use but can also be the hardest at the same time.
If you have a method that works for you then use it.
Always be open to new ideas as sometimes even a small change in your perfect method can yeild some great results.
I have been using shellac professionally for nearly 25 years now but would never claim to be an expert or to know all there is to know. I still surprise myself occasionally when I learn something new or try a new method.
And if you dont like how your finish came out, just wash it off with meths.
Hhhmmm, think that might have been 30 cents worth.
Anyhow, never be too afraid to experiment with how you apply shellac as you wont find a more forgiving polish.

Excellent 30 cents worth:2tsup:

Astrid:)