Spot on Mick.
I think the best thing would be if we all just called each other "Australian"
No black, white, islander aboriginal or any other name.
Cheers, Jack
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Spot on Mick.
I think the best thing would be if we all just called each other "Australian"
No black, white, islander aboriginal or any other name.
Cheers, Jack
HOW many times do I have to say this, we are not talking about individual cases,
we are supposed to be talking about an apology to the generation that were for political reasons, taken from there parents and families because they were half black,
Sorry is a small word, but apparently only big people can say it.
Sometimes i think that some people are politicising this, for there own trivial self interest,
Astrid
That statement implies that we all AGREE an apology is necessary but are too small to say sorry.Quote:
Originally Posted by astrid
You don't seem to be able to comprehend that not everybody believes we should say sorry.
I am not too small to say sorry, if I believe an apology is justified.
or the interest of a political party, such as kevin dudd, our short term leader:)Quote:
Originally Posted by astrid
Cheers, Jack
Most Australians are city based. They get their 'learnin' from books.
For these, 'Sorry' it is an emotional thing, an easy way to get out of having to really do anything of consequence.
Most city folks who agree with 'the sorry' dont know any aborigonals, have never met any aboriginals, have hardly seen them, have never been to the outback or even Purfleet, wouldn't have any knowledge of their problems or any solutions either: saying sorry makes them feel good.
It achieves little else.
I guess the debate does generate awareness of problems in our society, but I admit to being confused......I thought Mal Brough was doing a great job, assisting in the NT but I must have been wrong as he wasn't re-elected.
Greg
Symbolic reconciliationQuote:
Originally Posted by dazzler
Exactly Mick!!:2tsup::2tsup::2tsup:
This has been an interesting read. I have just realised my lack of compassion is because I have not read a book. I have always been a believer in helping others where you can, be it financially or by any other method. The past thirty five years has seen literally billions of dollars spent trying to help those who need help.
"you cannot help those who have no desire or will to help themselves, except maybe take away the bloody grog".
The "Stolen" generations which are written about can be said of every people on this earth and the people of today really did not play a part in this. I believe that the quicker the Goverment of the day starts to treat every body as equal in Australia the quicker this crap will mend itself, it may take another fifty years or so.
Would someone please tell me why on every form that you fill out you are asked if you are aboriginal or torres straight islander. Perhaps if every one ticked this box on every form we may solve a few problems created by the powers to be ourselves.
I hope Kev does not say sorry on my behalf, I do not consider that I have done any one on this earth a wrong of any type or description.:no:
Regards Mike
I'm an immigrant who came after these injustices were done. I personally did not do any of this.
BUT I'm glad that the nation, through its natianal parliament tackles this problem and acknowledges that wrongs were done by previous generations and says sorry.
Hopefully this will be a turning point in our relations with the original people of this country and that we now start to deal with each other as Australians, not white or black or aboriginals or dutch or chinese Australians, but Australians, like our anthem says. That race and racial backgrounds become obsolete and irrelevant.
BTW there are already legal mechanisms in place for anyone aggrieved by previous governments action to claim compensation if a court considers it to be just, so there is no reason not to say sorry in that regard.
Peter.
Interesting thread, and goes to show there is more than woodshavings talked about here!
If saying the S word clears the air and enables everyone to move on, with a real effort from both sides to improve to living standards of indigenous people, I'm all for it. I detest that other word 'closure' too, but if that what it takes...
As long as it doesn't open up the floodgates for compensation claims, as many people fear (prompted no doubt by self-serving legal parasites), I can't see the problem.
It would appear to be specifically about the stolen generation, but has come to include a wider cultural disruption, and as said earlier, its a symbolic gesture.
(Personally I'm waiting for an apology from the thieving English myself, for their part in clearing the Highlands of Scotland; and then another from the Danes and Swedes for the depredations on my forebears in the Hebrides! I don't want compensation, just an acknowledgement they were (and still are) murderous, thieving, rapacious Imperialists etc, and we were here before them.:wink:)
Yes astrid I read.
What I want to know is whether there will be an equally official "statement of forgiveness"? I mean, what's the point of apology if someone isn't going to stand up and say "that's ok, we forgive you"? Who is going to do that?
Bet they don't.
Hi Astrid,Quote:
Originally Posted by astrid
Once again you feel the need to attack me on a personal level as my thoughts dont align with yours. So I am not entitled to an opinion because you think I dont go to the library?. Are you for real?. Or is it simply the case that you dont possess the skills to debate an issue on facts and instead aggressively attack people to make them back away.
This is about me, because MY Prime Minister is about to apologise on MY behalf. Something I believe he has no right to do. If I need to apologise for something then I will apologise.
Clear your mind for a moment, have no perceptions of who or what you think I am, and I will give you my reasons for being against this. Its a bit long, but I have taken the time to read what you have written so please recipricate.
Mind clear?
Ready?
Here goes;
Governments in Australia try to do the right thing at the time they do it. Australians in general are decent people. I totally accept and am saddened by the terrible things that happened to indigenous people. This is to say that when I read or hear about them I feel sad. I dont personalise the feeling because I didnt do it, no more than I would for the people of Iraq, who are suffering a terrible fate. I am saddened by thier fate, but feel no guilt for the occurance.
I reject the idea that previous governments set out to destroy aboriginal culture. I believe that previous governments, like our previous one, genuinely wanted to help aboriginal people, and did thier best using methodoligies of the day. I base this on the belief that we have shown through the ages that we are decent bunch, by the values of the time.
In relation to the removal of half caste children I believe it was done without malice, but in an attempt to keep the aborignal population undiluted (that doesnt sound nice but I cant think of a better word) by removing them. My understanding is that many half caste children were not treated well by the communities and it was considered better to bring them up as "white kids". To give them a "chance" so to speak of having a "better" life. I believe this was done with the best interests of the children and with the wisdom of the time. The govt wasnt to know that there were sick &^&&'s within the church and foster homes that would target children put in thier care and damage them, in many cases irrepairably. The police and other welfare people in my opinion didnt know either the fate that would beset many children, of all colours, once they went into care.
I dont believe that any Australian Govt ever set out with the intention of committing genocide or destroying Aboriginal People. However, the govts through our history have been stuck with one problem. Either put a fence between Indigenous and Non Indigenous people to keep thier culture intact, or try and integrate. And this is the problem. Its a one foot in and one foot out approach that leaves them in nowhere land.
I also believe that any child who is/was neglected should be removed from the parents. Kids get one crack at life and parents who cant perform the role forfeit the right. As a cop I saw this at least once ever two or three days and it colour/race/religion is no barrier. And yes it made me very sad.
Why no apology on MY behalf?
I HATE victimhood. I mean I really HATE it. It serves no purpose other than to allow people to wallow in self pity. My own personal experience of victimhood is like this;
My mother, as I said earlier, was taken from her unfit mother. (Her mothers side are Tasmanian Aboriginal from the 1830's New Norfolk). Mum was molested while in care. She dealt with it through strength. She is proud that she survived it and never personalised it and does not identify as a victim. My dad was in the Navy and suffered PTSD. He fell in with the Vietnam Veterans because he was in mission at sea during Vietnam. He now identifys as a vet. He goes to vet counselling and is now a victim, to his detriment. He identifies as a victim and he gets more mentally unwell each year.
So for someone to apologise for something that I, nor my children, had anything to do with is inappropriate. It will also achieve nothing. It might make a few people feel better for a short time, but in the end it will do more damage than good.
What I do support is full and just compensation for these people who have had crimes committed against them. I support free medical and psychological help for them. I support assisted living and accommodation for them. ALL a hell of a lot more than Mr RUDD is about to do, seeing as compensation is not part of His Sorry agenda.
regards
Dazzler
Fully agree with Journeyman Mick's comments, those of Bittingmidge's and Dazzler. And those of Noel Pearson who I have a great respect for because he's putting aside all the carp and getting on with trying to make lives better for those that he has been elected into his office to do - which is more than can be said for 07Rudd and his self-serving interests.
Yes I've been through Purfleet - fast. I've dodged bricks and others stuff thrown at cars going through the round about at Purfleet. (just letting you know that i know where it is - so you don't think I'm a city bloke who knows nothing okay, I could go on with more about people I knew etc. but there's no point).
While the "fence" remains and until boxes need not be ticked anymore, there will be lines waiting for their what is "theirs" because that is what they have grown up to know.
We are all Australian under the same sky.
Wow, just read this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by astrid
Me thinks, you didn't keep your promise Astrid:rolleyes:
(BTW someone asked for your qualifications in this area, unles I missed your reply, I don't think you answered that question)
This thread is a microcosm of Australia, and this quote sums it up not to badly. there are some great stories and posts here, and strangely the poster who is most emotional about others peoples views is judgemental about those views rather than empathetic towards others experience.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Ward
Here's a tough one for many to handle, but I used to visit Taree a week at a time every 2nd month for a number of years - because of my upbringing - academic socialist parent in the city, I was gobsmacked at how racist the locals were - and openly so within their own confines - no embarrassment at all.
After a few years, and also understanding why purfleet is the way it is, i didnt share their views but i did come to the realisation that had I been brought up with their experiences in their town I would very likely be just like them with their racism - there for the grace of God go I.
If there is anything to be sorry about vis a vis the aboriginals (and their many nations), it is the relocation and provision of housing estates etc that has done most to ensure a poor future, and ensure a divide - but at the same time it kept the "problem" out of the eyes of the city dwellers that made the policy - a problem unseen is not my problem......
Oh, and Noel Pearson for PM!
Let's face it, this whole business is becoming an 'industry'. My family is littered with Australian Aboriginal, Chinese, English, Scots and Irish and
all our forebears have conducted acts that we today, and God only knows why, think should be compensated for. What's that saying? "The 'sins' of the father etc.?" What sins? Holy dooley, sounds like a never-ending feud.
Let's acknowledge that things MIGHT have been done differently, but only with the benefit of hindsight, of course.
Mia culpa? I don't think so.
An idea has just come to me while typing this.
Let's not do that stuff any more and treat each other with mutual respect.
OK. That won't work. I'll think of something else and get back to you.
Isnt that the basis of the religions of the world?Quote:
Originally Posted by Toyboy
South Africa and East Timor have had success with truth and reconciliation commissions. There are a lot of very painful stories on both sides and in the telling people can move on. This should be part of the process. The aboriginal people also need to forgive. We should drop our expectation that they will like/ want to adopt our culture.
I am also an immigrant so am not strictly personally culpable but if it helps the aboriginal nations move on it should be done. I am after all the recipient of the history of all of my ancestors and the country I choose to live in. The only approriate body left to apologise is the government as the individuals reponsible are mostly gone.
Sebastiaan
I wouldn't have thought so. Based on appearances, I thought it was more to do with arguing to the death over whose invisible friend is better.Quote:
Isnt that the basis of the religions of the world?
The other observation I would make is that people seem to be extending the idea of apology to the entire Aboriginal situation. I thought this was an issue involving a select number of individuals, not the whole race. We are supposedly apologising for what a past government did to a subset of the indigenous population (individuals who would not have existed if the Europeans had not come), not for coming here in the first place.
So how is an apology going to improve the lot of indigenous Australians in general, when the large majority of them are not affected by it?
:iagree:Quote:
Originally Posted by silentC
I dont think any apology will materially improve anyone's lot. What it may do is relieve some of the anger. But in the end the offended still have to forgive.
A bit like the Jews after WW2, or the Japanese comfort women, survivors of families necklaced by the ANC, families who lost the lot in East Timor. Some manage to move on, some dont. The received offense doesnt define a person but their individual response does. The Dalai Lama doesnt seem to carry a lot of anger and resentment to the Chinese, he seems to be able to move on. Ive met one elder who moved on and a lot of younger aboriginal people who havent.
The apology is for the Stolen Generation but any apology will recognise that there was communal hurt, I think that is the point,
Come on Astrid you're obviously bursting to tell us.......how many books have you read ?:roll:Quote:
Originally Posted by astrid
I think the Nazis read books I think Hitler even wrote one.:roll:Quote:
Originally Posted by astrid
HH.
I think you'd have to be on the other side of the fence to understand why.Quote:
Originally Posted by silentC
It might not be important to non-indigenous people, but that's not the point, is it? It seems important to most indigenous people whether they were directly affected by TSG or not.
This is only one step in the reconciliation process. Another thing needed is to give the kids in remote areas some hope for the future. Some hope that they can turn out to be nothing like their uncle who raped them or .,.,/.,././ .,m/ I cant write any more than that.
They need something to do and something to aspire to,
Noel Pearson for PM is a bad idea as he would need a party machine to get him there and a party line to tow.
And I didn't bloody well do any of it, but I'm sorry that it happened.
Obviously there's some mystical secret business here that common whiteys like myself can never understand, so we'll just wait and see how they come along in leaps and bounds after Wednesday shall we?Quote:
I think you'd have to be on the other side of the fence to understand why.
I think it's hilarious, all this philosophical waffling people go on about with the healing process and whatever, as if words are going to ever make a difference to anything. You've got a group of people who feel that they have had something taken away and no amount of politically correct BS is ever going to change their minds. Where did I read it? "With an apology normally comes reparation. Without compensation, 'sorry' is meaningless".
It's all just posturing. Just as meaningless as any election promise. Anybody who can't see that and actually believes their life or anyone else's will change as a result is fooling themselves and playing right into Rudd's hands.
I think this thread suggests it is because they don't feel part of, or want to be part of, the apology made by the government.Quote:
Originally Posted by wayfarer
HH.
I wonder if anyone here has ever watched a sporting event and then proceeded to mention to someone that 'we' won when, in fact, they had nothing to do with the win.
Sporting teams are usually popular, governments are generally not :)
Nup sorry, there's no way I take ownership of something that was done before I was born and neither do I believe anybody alive at the time should either, unless they had a controlling influence or were a perpetrator. Maybe they should have a version of the Nuremburg trials and hunt them all down or something. That would be more meaningful than a blanket "sorry".
Perhaps the term Stolen Generation may have been coined over a bottle of metho in a park somewhere, perhaps it should be Rescued Generation. It is common knowledge that both white and black fit into the category but it has been and obvious fact not very many white people have been vocal about their possible misfortune. I never heard the term during the seventies or eighties regarding stolen generations.
Regards Mike
How does expressing sorrow for something give you ownership or culpability? :?
Well, we've been here before. Same answer as last time: depends on your definition of apology doesn't it? If you aren't responsible for something, how can you apologise for it? If you apologise for it, doesn't that suggest you're admitting culpability?
Expressing sorrow? Well that's a different matter. I don't think Rudd is planning to simply express sorrow though. John Howard did that already but it wasn't considered good enough. By apologising on my behalf, which is what I gather he's planning to do, he's making me a part of something that has nothing to do with me. If someone walks up to me on Thursday and says "thanks for the apology, mate" I'll say, "don't thank me, it was Kevin Rudd's apology, not mine".
Let's see what he's actually going to say, I suppose. But don't expect it to change anything. That's all I'm saying.
I dont expect it to change anything (nor do I think anyone would go up and thank you for it :) ) but something has to change and this is as good a place as any to start.
From Reconcile.org.au;
In 1999, the Australian Government moved a motion for reconciliation with an expression of:
“deep and sincere regret that indigenous Australians suffered injustices under the practices of past generations, and for the hurt and trauma that many indigenous people continue to feel as a consequence of those practices".
Nuff said, get over it :)
That was the 99 australian government. They were a bunch of wonkers
And I feel similarly about persecuted jews from WW2. They got a free country out of it and are still whinging (the get over it bit)
I like nice simple easy elegant solutions to things.
I grew up in Melbourne in the 50's and 60's and I knew that an /integration/ policy of some sort existed, even if I wasnt clear about the details. Why do so many people say they never knew what was happening? Hell, there was a referendum to give Aboriginies full rights as Australian citizens that was voted yes in a landslide during the same era. It seemed sensible to me then - help to bring a section of the community into the 20th century where they actually had to live. It appeared to me even in the 70's to be a truly caring approach compared to what the South Africans were doing with apartheid.
I also remember that at my school there were a couple of aboriginal kids in the boarding school, good footballers in the school team. I remember being horrified when I watched an inter-school game where the aboriginal kids were clearly targeted by the opposing side and realized for perhaps the first time that racism and intolerance were irrational and not just /normal/ bullying.
Then I remember in 1979 getting into an argument with a French/Canadian/First nation person about cultural issues and saying Australia was doing a good thing by trying to integrate aborigines and that integration was a 2 way street. We (white fellas) should also be assimilating some useful part of the aboriginal culture so we would all become some sort of homogenized Australian people. I'm not sure that didn't happen to me by just being born here. I don't know a lot of the dreamtime stories but I know I have a spiritual connection to the land. I have traveled extensively overseas and Í know there is some innate thing about the Australian bush that happens to me when I'm in it that doesn't happen elsewhere.
There are many different views being expressed here from what appears to be mostly one side of the fence, be they either yeah or nay. It's my guess there are just as many divergent views on the other side, some of which wont see any value in a sorry statement either.
Reality is that we all now live in the 21st century and by virtue of science, technology and population growth the world is getting smaller. It would be a nicer place if we could actually work out how to get along together.
However the homosapien animal has proved throughout its history and current affairs that as a species we tend to prefer to resolve things through conflict and conquering.
I'm sorry that I'm naive and like to think things were done with good intentions. I'm sorry the plan was wrong and didn't work. I'm not sorry that somebody tried to fix things up a bit.
I'm sorry there's no simple easy elegant solutions to things.
This is a terribly paternalstic statement which highlights the skewed belief that the indigenous people were the poorer for not having these western trappings. Plainly their life and culture was richer before these things. The fact is though that things have moved on irrevocably from that point and I believe there won't be great change in aboriginal's situation until they can be forward looking rather than living in the past. I'm neutral on an apology, I don't know enough about aboriginal culture, but if the elders see this apology as a an important payment of respect and herald a new era, then I'm all for it, I hope so. But I have a rather pessimistic outlook.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pheonix
Cheers
Michael
As long as we have religion, non religion and politics plus different coloured people and cultures we will never get on. I wish we could.
The replies to this thread have I feel, demonstrated my point regarding this apology being the turning point for many non-aboriginal Australians who have sat by quietly and watched the train wreck that is happening in many aboriginal communities to stand up and say enough is enough, Kevin better actually have the balls to do something about the current situation and not just use it as political grandstanding.
:2tsup: I have seen a few white youths in the news lately that could do with a spear in the leg as a wake up call.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuzzie
Well, I came here on a boat in the late 60's, so its not my problem to worry about.
However it does make me wonder if I'm due an apology from the Norman French, assorted Germanic tribes, the Romans and I'm not sure who else tromped across the UK in the last few thousand years.
The French at least could apologise for spelling/pronunciation atrocities such as "knight" and "queen" that we are stuck with to this day.
I do think the 'victim' mindset is an issue; if saying sorry helps some indigenous people come to terms with the fact that that the world has changed, and Australia will never be like it was 100, 500 or 40,000 years ago and it is time to move on, then good.
I don't know how much good saying sorry will do, but I do know that not saying it will stop things from getting better.
Also, just throwing money will not solve the problem, but the solution will require money. Not in the form of compensation, but on education, health and possibly some social engineering. But all the money in the world won't solve the problem without the input of intelligent people of good will, and the exclusion of those out to feather their own nests.
Again I feel the need to point out that this apology is aimed specifically at people affected by the child removal policies of the Australian government and not at indigenous Australians in general. The people Rudd wants to apologise to are the people of mixed race who were taken from their birth parents, and the birth parents themselves and perhaps the extended families. Perhaps there may be a general apology to the Aboriginal people that such a policy was implemented at all.
The apology was called for following the "Bringing them home" report, which focused specifically on the forced removal of Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander children from their parents.
This is what Rudd will be apologising for. He wont be apologising for European settlement, confiscation of land, murder, assault, rape, forced slave labour (although there is an aspect of that associated with the child removal policy), deprivation of rights in general etc etc. It does nothing to address land rights or alcoholism or paedophilia or domestic violence or health. The apology affects something like 100,000 people over a period of 100 years. That's only a fraction of the number of Aboriginal or part Aboriginal people who have lived in this country since white settlers first came here.
If this apology is all that's stopping them from moving on, taking some control of their lives and sorting themselves out, then I would say it makes them look more than a little bit silly. Is that really all they have been waiting for? Come on...
Silent, whilst I think you may be right in your assumption as to what the apology will cover, no one person outside Rudd's immediate circle has seen the actual wording. There fore you, and I and a few million other Australians, can only "assume".