:2tsup: thanks guys.
One last question. sorry.:-.... what finish would you use on the bench top....and does one coat on the underside and 3 coats topside sound good ?
Thinking of something pretty hardy. Something she can put hot pots on maybe.
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:2tsup: thanks guys.
One last question. sorry.:-.... what finish would you use on the bench top....and does one coat on the underside and 3 coats topside sound good ?
Thinking of something pretty hardy. Something she can put hot pots on maybe.
I used 3 -4 coats of Cabots poly Gel to avoid drips. I actually cheated and used weathershield paint underneath ( allowing for the overhang of cource) because it dried quicker.
After 3 years its scratched... but I think I will leave it another year befor doing another coat.
FWIW go the mitred corner with connectors under. Becareful with the connectors its a fine balance between not tight enough and splitting the timber. You should also make sure that your cut out for the sink is 200mm min away from the mitre.
I used these connectors because of the speed but the drawback is the plastic threads burr a bit when you are trying to get some good tension.
http://www.lincolnsentry.com.au/Product.aspx?id=571
Caeserstone is sounding better all the time
Ta mate. whatever I put on, I'm thinking of just spraying it on. Got a compressor now. Can you put hot pots straight on it ?...Want something really hardy uno.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleedin Thumb
:rolleyes:...:D...I wonder if the whole process (just quietly) is considered acceptable, because its convienient for the cabinetmaker to do it this way ? ....I'm just still a bit worried about these mitres. I know its considered ok by the pro's and I'll do it, but the principle still worries me. Especially after I've got a really nice finish down on top all I need is 1/2mil gap to appear and it'll look shyt. who knows.Quote:
FWIW go the mitred corner with connectors under. Becareful with the connectors its a fine balance between not tight enough and splitting the timber.
I thought they looked a little plasticty too...bit too clever. Didn't mention it to spare Harrys feelings (sniff) :p:wink:...Maybe Harries better at using them. But I'm guessing that Jarrahs weight will dictate things. Trying to get the other ones DJ showed earilier.Quote:
I used these connectors because of the speed but the drawback is the plastic threads burr a bit when you are trying to get some good tension.
http://www.lincolnsentry.com.au/Product.aspx?id=571
If you can't get any of the ones I showed you, I can post some up to you. Got a few spares laying around, they even come in a bag with 3 in it including the biscuits. Just PM your address and they're yours.
Another alternative is to cut some thread rod to length and use washers and nuts after you've squared one side of the hole.
AT those zip bolts dont have plastic threads they are metal and very fine guage threaded... super tight using very little pressure!
They have a chuck key like a drill chuck to be done up with a cordless drill... zipped up:)
I recon its the only way to go, considering that the timber expands differentially. As far as the gap goes when I was cutting mine with a small maketa I frupped up as the blade wasn't set correctly to 90 deg:((:((:(( anyway i do have a gap that goes from 0 -.1mm. :doh: I can't do much about it except drink copious quantities of alcohol so I don't notice it.:)Quote:
Originally Posted by apricotripper
BTW I don't think there is a finish (for timber) that allows hot pots going on.
None I've heard of, if you're not counting finishing the job by insetting a tile in the surface.:roll:Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleedin Thumb
Thankyou Kindly. I'll try and get them first. Else, I'd appreciate that. Try and find something I can do in return.Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ's Timber
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleedin Thumb
Frustrating. I'll have to do it that way too.
Probably right. Just remember reading somewhere some product that claimed you could. If it exists, probably cost too much anyway.Quote:
BTW I don't think there is a finish (for timber) that allows hot pots going on.
Sorry Harry I didn't see your response about the Zip Bolts.
They must have changed then to metal (for the reasons I mentioned) after I had bought mine.
DGI whos website was posted in this thread sell there 2 pac finsh for timber bench tops, not 100% sure if it will take a red hot pot but it does take a fair amount of abusing.
I have also seen that wet glass epoxy used but it was clear coated with poly over the top to protect it from being damaged. That was for a commerical bar application.
thanks. that'll do me.
says....
<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 width="100%" border=0><TBODY><TR vAlign=top><TD width=160>Heat Stability </TD><TD>Unaffected by boiling water or heated plates and is heat stable to approx. 400°F (200°C)</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>
:2tsup:
I did an L-shaped kitchen benchtop about 15 years ago from 8 x 1 1/2 inch (Tasmanian) celery top pine. The join was mitred and there were loose tongues glued between the planks. I was not satisfied with the mitre - I didn't cut it accurately enough - so I routed a half inch trench over that join and epoxied in a batten. The bench was then sanded and given six coats of two-pot polyurethane on ALL surfaces. Light rub-down and two more coats every five years or so. Looks great and there have been no problems.
Nextdoor neighbour had a blackwood butcher block bench top professionally installed at same time at exorbitant cost. It cracked in about six weeks, was repaired many times and replaced twice. After about five years he had it replaced with a corian benchtop, and still loves it.
Not definitive, but food for thought.... or more confusion.
Cheers
Sounds like its not all about who does the work either. That even if you do the right thing it might still crack on you. Dependent on what the wood wants to do I guess.
I wonder if blackwood has a bad rep for this sort application.
blacxkwood is regarded as a stable timber Jake
ta Bob.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GraemeCook
That's a great idea! you could even use a contrasting coloured timber..could look quite classy.
Any tips that can be used to hide my poor workmanship are always appreciated.:D
Be good too to hide cracks should they appear later too.. Won't be able to run the router all the way to the edge of bench though due to the wall....chisel out that little bit by hand I spose. oh well. see what happens.
the boss still insists to dump the full mitre idea all together cause of potential movement problems.. Says butt, and mason mitre it to continue a edge profile around corners. Makes me wonder why that link provided above said its not recommended to use them ? ...
I'm interested to know how many timber bench tops your boss done using a mason mitre? Can you go and see any that he may have done and how have they held up?
I have done a few bench tops using a full mitre and haven't received any callbacks yet and this includes laminated and full width slabs.
Ask around and see if there is any locals with timber tops and if you can get permission to see them to give you an idea of what has held up and what hasn't.
Sorry, I'm probably going on about it too much. Just can't really afford to stuff it up.
I get fridays off. So, I'll ask him monday.
He's visualising it, like I did initially, that any movement will open it up.
At smoko yesterday I brought it up again, and from what I gathered, his idea was to epoxy up just around the mitre (mason mitre) and let the rest of it float towards the wall. But that made me question him on there being too much movement at the wall for the seal. ???
Seems to be two lines of thought on this one. anyway.
ahh the idea ,worries me greatly when people think about what to do and then ask someone who tells them that this is the way that they would do it ,then the someone takes the advice on board ,then when it may or does go wrong they say well you should have made your own decision.
coat all exposed esges with whatever finish you are going to use ,do not do this sparingly as you will be sorry,timber tops for for that matter anything timber HAS to be allowed room to move ,to not do so is to your own waste of money
Want to say, I am appreciative of all the ideas. I won't be blaming anyone, except myself should it stuff up.
Wondering what would you do Tom ? ....big butt joint, mason mitre, or just a big mitre at the corner. Sounding like you'd prefer to just butt it (?)
Jake,
I love working with timber but I don't generally recomend timber kitchen tops to my clients for a couple of reasons.
1. It's quicker and easier to get the job done and the cheque in my hand using pretty much any material other than timber.
2. Cross grain joint problems/expansion/contraction issues.
I won't mitre the corner joins - ever. Relative humidity here swings from 100% in the wet season down to about 20% in winter. There's a lot of potential for movement.
Did a "L" shaped timber top not too long ago. It was a butt joint with biscuits to align it and metal benchtop connectors to pull it together. The cut outs for the connectors were made with elongated openings to allow for movement. The first piece was fitted to the cabinets, screwed from underneath with the screw holes at the front of the cabinet elongated to allow for movement from back to front, which is pretty standard.
The second piece was then fitted and pulled up tight with the metal connectors (after all surfaces had been coated, of course). The holes in the cabinet for this piece had to allow for movemet of this piece (back to front of cabinet) but also had to allow for the movement of the other piece (along the grain of this piece). So all the holes were drilled hugely oversized and screws went through a piece of ply as a washer. Our wet season has started and they've had no problems and I don't anticipate any.
I hope my explanation has been clear enough, some diagrams would probably be helpful but I can't drive any of the drawing programs and my scanner is buried under a pile of paperwork.:-
Mick
Quote:
Originally Posted by apricotripper
what mick has said is correct ,butt joint ,elongate holes ,oversize washers ,this is the industries recommendation so i would recommend you go with the people that know what to do and are willing to share their knowledge with you
HI Jake,
I have been watching this thread and your kitchen querie since it started but havent posted becuase my experiences with making a hardwood kitchen benchtop have been largely negative or at least a trial.
I don't want to say don't do it becuase if it works a Blue Gum benchtop is a beautiful thing. All I will do is recount my experience.
About 15 years I made a kitchen for some friends. In the design stage it was decided that the benchtop would be made from some old dressed blue gum boards my friends father had been keeping under his house for 30 years. The boards were machine dressed to 140 wide x 32 thick and had been kept very straight, dry and clean. The timber had been back sawn.
I glued and dowelled 5 boards together using Resorcinol making sure the radial grain alternated on adjioning boards. The benchtop was L shaped 2100 x 2700 and I put a mitred corner and used benchtop jioners (bolt type). The corner was total PITA and had to machine planed and sanded to get the boards level with each other.
Before installing the benchtop I sealled the underside and end grain with polyurethane clear finish and the top was finished with a non yellow Poppyseed oil (from artists suppliers) and polished to a satin sheen.
Now to this day I really dont know what happened or why - but 6 months later - cracks began developping in centre of the boards and ran from end to end AND the mitre opened up. The splitting continued over the next summer. At first I went over and filled the cracks and refinished - but was very disappointed as was the friend.
Finally it was decided to replace the homemade benchtop with a factory made timber top. At the time Hyne timbers made red color select grade hardwood laminated benchtops and my friend spent $1800 on a new 35 mm thick top.
The timber expert at Hyne told me that the problem was probably that my pieces of timber were too wide and generated too much movement according to humidity. And that stable benchtops needed quarter sawn material cut down to a square or almost square shape - seasoned of course and glued hot .
I have never tried a 30mm thick + hardwood timber benchtop again - but the laminated benchtop from hyne's is still flawless ( well last time I saw it 3 years ago).
I have since then made a red gum benchtop from 15 mm thick x 120 mm wide boards glued to 32mm MR fibreboard without any problems ( including mitre)
So that is my experience - hope your bench is better behaved.
Doog
Doog,
what a bugger! Can you recall if the cracks were only in the top face or if they ran right through the boards top to bottom? I'm wondering if the problem may have been caused, at least in part, by there being different finishes top and bottom. I'm not familiar with poppyseed oil at all but I'm guessing it was able to absorb more moisture than the polyurethane and it certainly would have been exposed to more moisture as the top face. That said, I can't understand the cracking, one would expect a cupping or bowing.
Mick
HI Mick - over the years I have wondered the same thing about the oil - the cracks started out as fine fissures on the top surface but by the end of the first summer had gone about 30% the way down and had actually gone all the way through at the mitred corner.
Poppyseed oil is a hard finish oil that they used to make artists oil paint and old fashioned white house enamel from, especially light colors becuase it doesnt yellow. I have used it on other moisture senstive timber like hoop pine without any problems.
The way I look at things - if something doesnt work but you've learnt something (even if it is to never try it again) then it hasnt been wasted time LOL
I was wondering Doog, .......How did you fastern the bench to the frame ? Did you have it so the wood could move freely around the fasterners ? Thinking that may explain it.
Sorry to bring up questions about something you probably want to forget.
Doog,
my guess is that even though the timber was well seasoned it's moisture content was greater than the environment in which it was eventually fitted. The poly would have been close to impervious to moisture, at least compared to the oil. So the top surface started drying out whilst the timber below stayed where it was. The timber below didn't allow the top surface to move so small fissures opened up. As these fissures opened up they allowed more timber to dry out, but the bottom face was still impervious and unmoving. This resulted in major cracking. The mitre would have opened up regardless of the finish. As the timber expands or contracts the angles at the end of each piece change so that they're no longer at a true 45 deg. resulting in a dodgy mitre. Be interesting to see if anyone else has any other explanations for this failure.
Mick
Hi Jake - the carcasses were MR chipboard and the bench top was fixed to the cabinet sides by 35 x 35 x 150 long angle brackets screwed on. As I rememebr there were only 4 or 5 of these brackets for the whole job. The brackets were fixed mainly under the centre plank of the benchtop leaving the other planks to move around.
Hi Mick - I would have thought that the humidity in the kitchen would have been quite high and the first summer was very wet. Perhaps it was due to some difference in "breathabilty" caused by different surface finishes that did it. Never the less I have never seen hardwood crack like this before - even in structural work where stresses would be much greater.
AS it turned out I cannibalised the old blue gum top and made some sliding timber window frames out of it without any great problems.
The 2 or 3 timber bench surfaces I have made since then by laminating thinner timber onto man made board, using good old sikaflex, have worked perfectly with difficult timbers, RED GUM and Northern Scribbly Gum (E. signata).
Thats it in a nutshell I origionally thought...all mitres seem subjected to this. Sounds like your probably right about it being a worry due to the moisture swing here.Quote:
Originally Posted by journeyman Mick
Thanks doogie for the explaination and everybody else.
So i wont be mitring it. Seriously considering not having a solid bench top now at all. I don't like butted slabs. Sounding like dramas. Might use the blue gum for something else. :?:?:D
I didn't mean to put you off the idea Jake!
I think the timber guy from Hynes may have been on the right track though - my boards were too wide and/or thick and the grain travelled the wrong way through the boards. When they boards wanted to move the edges were stuck rock solid so stresses built up along the center.
Why not try the benchtop with narrower sections? I always meant to try it that way myself - but never got around to it.
Maybe not have a corner return section ?
Great discussion guys. You have helped me decide on my new kitchen benchtops. Caeserstone or granite.
LOL Juan !! Timber benchtops do work - but of those that I have seen and dont have problems are all made from narrower strips of timber - or a single slab.
:D honestly, who knows ! ....Quote:
Originally Posted by Dirty Doogie
Just quietly though, the misses and I had a talk about granite too last night....or some kind of heat resistant laminate. (And just keep the bluegum for myself :2tsup:)
..and this site as well.
http://www.granitetransformations.com.au/home.html
Some kind of thin stuff to put over existing benchtops. Was wondering, maybe I could make the frame and just put a benchtop out of chipwood on top (or something cheap that works)and just get those blokes to come in and put this wizebang stuff on for me.....
I asked them how much, but no response. :~ I get that a lot from these places. Why do they advertise themselves on the internet, and not respond to potential customers. I'm pretty shore I wasn't rude in my query. :?
I have made many tables.
I won't use over 140mm wide boards but I really prefer using 70-90mm wide boards.
Never had a movement problem with the narrow boards.
btw you can get stone look laminates readily