Unions, loathe em, love em or balance

I have only ever had two encounters with overbearing and sneaky unionists in over 50 years of employment and self employment. My first encounter was about 1973 when I was sub-contracting installing all the the windows in St. Vincents Private Hospital in Sydney. I had been sub-contracting up to this time on several high rise buildings in Sydney and had never encountered a union.

I had been on the job for about a week when the BWU rep came up to me and wanted to see my union ticket. I told him I didn't have one and did not intend to get one. He said to me you can't work on this site without one. My answer was tough. He then threatened me by telling me that they would close the job down which would put 200 men out of work. To which I replied well I don't care I will go and work somewhere else so you can take it up with the management.

I had a contract with the window company and it didn't include being a member of a union. The supervisor from the window company became concerned because of penalties and wanted me to join the union so the upshot was the window company said they would pay the union fees for me and my two men but I said I don't want to join the BWU. So the compomise was I joined the Carpenters and Joiners Union which was toothless tiger anyway. As soon as I finished the job I resigned from the union anyway.

My only other encounter was when I was managing BHP Building Products in Tamworth and the union rep sneaked in the back door and was talking to all the factory staff stopping them from working and I came out and caught him. I asked what he was doing holding up the workers from doing their job. I asked him to leave the premises. This he wanted to argue about and I told him No.1 he should have come in the front door and saw me first and No2 if he wants to talk to them he can come back during their lunch hour or after they have knocked off. The staff were upset with me because they didn't want to talk to him anyway.

My personal opinion unions suck.

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Originally Posted by namtrak

I always have leant to the left (short leg and all), and as such have always supported unions.

I think it is easy to draw out the examples where unionists have become bloated, or certain sections have received too many concessions.

However I also think, that employers with goodwill in their heart are in the minority, and if there was no such thing as unionised workforces then we would be operating in a completely different environment. Unions not only bring an employee advocate to the wage condition debate, but also highlight areas of safety, general work conditions and employee welfare.

At the end of the day it is a purely supply and demand issue. Whilst we have high employment/low unemployment then the bargaining power is naturally with the employee and therefore the employer has to provide conditions conducive to attracting employees. However once we have high unemployment and the employer no longer has to shop around for the right employee, that's when conditions (employer overheads/costs) are eroded and the unions come into their own.

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Well written. :2tsup:

I spent most of my working life (20 years 53 days and 4 hours) in a non-union environment.
Any of my workmates are welcome at my house (even 20 years after retirement)
I trusted them....they trusted me.
We didn't need a union......we had a serious job......and we did it without RDO's, time and a half, penalty rates, and child care.
I am proud to have been a soldier.......so in my polite voice........I can't see the reason for the thread.

You should note that this a personal entry to this thread.........it is not closed/edited/moderated

There ya go!

Why is there no unions in the armed forces??:D

Because when they call strike its work time.


Astrid I cant see why apprentices are a difficult topic a checkout operator straight out no sorry even before leaving school is paid better at times $100 more than an apprentice.
An office junior goes straight onto what a 4th yr apprentice would be getting, no tools no additional fee's to pay. Apprentices in many ways are todays yesteryears slaves and whipping boys & girls.

Astrid have you read the Union hand book you represent?? Have you issued these to your members?? After all they pay for them.

Early in my working life I was in the office (non union) of a factory which required all workers to be union members as it was a closed shop. The union rep was quite good and acted in a positive role between workers and management bringing foreward minor gievances which usually got sorted out without any stress. Sadly he got replaced by an overbearing individual with a chip on his shoulder and something to prove. Within a very short period he had the factory out on a strike that ran for six weeks, and at the end of it the workers returned with no pay increase and no improvement in conditions. Everyone lost, I think unions do have a very valid role in the work force but it was this type of behaviour that ran unchecked through the seventies and part of the eighties that left a very bad taste in the mouths of many. The reason so many of my generation grew tired of them was their inability to listen to their own members and act in a constructive way, the young can't even see what they do. Unless the union movement can find a role as mediators rather than bover boys then they are doomed to the scrap bin of history which is a shame because they could create a very positive conciliation role in workplace relations if they could just engage their brains for once and move on from 1910.

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Originally Posted by wheelinround

Astrid I cant see why apprentices are a difficult topic a checkout operator straight out no sorry even before leaving school is paid better at times $100 more than an apprentice.
An office junior goes straight onto what a 4th yr apprentice would be getting, no tools no additional fee's to pay. Apprentices in many ways are todays yesteryears slaves and whipping boys & girls.

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You have got to be kidding. An apprenticeship is a paid education system. Many apprentices cost their employer money, especially at the early stages. Is that education not worth the $100 per week you imply they are being short paid.

Most of my peers went into the construction industry and were earning more than I was for my first few years. Some still earn more than I do. I however knew very little when I came straight out of uni. I appreciated and valued the 'on the job' education. Your attitude is short sighted.

The shop assistant and office junior will not progress at anywhere near the rate of an apprentice in terms of income. I know which one will earn more within a relatively short time.

I've never been a "Union Man" and probably never will. But on the other hand I'm not anti union either.

You may or may not have heard that the script writers for TV shows have gone out on strike in Hollywood and New York. The strike is about residuals on DVDs and digital downloads. According to published reports, on a DVD that sells for $19, the producers (a.k.a. Studios) get $9 of the sale price. The writers get $0.05.

In other words, the producers get enough from the DVD sale to go to the theater and see the movie. The writers get enough money to pay for the time on the parking meter to view the opening credits, but only if the writers car pool.

I think the premise for unions is fine, the problem is some of the individuals involved and how they react to the power of the position they have. Let's see if K07 can maintain a balance and get rid of the bad apples....only time will tell.

HH.

I reckon the problem is the attitude of members who believe that non-members are scabs.

The problem with what we have here is that it is not a workers struggle....its a class struggle......comrade.

Come the revolution and all counter revolutionary or just plain silly threads like this one will be exterminated.:no:

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Originally Posted by Bleedin Thumb

The problem with what we have here is that it is not a workers struggle....its a class struggle......comrade.

Come the revolution and all counter revolutionary or just plain silly threads like this one will be exterminated.:no:

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BT,
I think it's done well on the "Rantometer". I thought that was its aim.
I'm not sure how it rates on the "Spleen ventometer" though.

Rob

I reckon this thread should be in the drivelers forum ...and the election one as well ...both are a load of drivel.
Pete

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Originally Posted by boban

You have got to be kidding. An apprenticeship is a paid education system. Many apprentices cost their employer money, especially at the early stages. Is that education not worth the $100 per week you imply they are being short paid.

Most of my peers went into the construction industry and were earning more than I was for my first few years. Some still earn more than I do. I however knew very little when I came straight out of uni. I appreciated and valued the 'on the job' education. Your attitude is short sighted.

The shop assistant and office junior will not progress at anywhere near the rate of an apprentice in terms of income. I know which one will earn more within a relatively short time.

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True usually a 1st yr apprentice cost an employer but at the same time the employer is compensated by the government to the tune of approx $6k while the employer charges at normal rates for the work done. This goes through to 3rd yr when most employers get rid of apprentices even in union shops.

Minimum wage is set by either Unions or government dept's. but there are always those who take advantage and those who respect a persons value.

So the horror stories of how bad the unions are surface quickly. It's not unions per se but the misuse of power and that should be in the hands of the rank and file. An example of a power struggle here in Vic at the moment is the Police Association (read union but association sounds better) Here the accusations fly that "Senr Serg Mullet is a megolomaniac. He is the highest paid union official in Vic, etc etc." No one outside of the police force can assess his value or otherwise to the force. It's up to them to sort it. The AMA is a very closed shop union but are they bullies?

I have just finished reading an economic review written by a self confessed right winger and his comments are worth noting. Greg Combet is a very astute negotiator respected by both sides of business and politics. And thuggery is not confined to unions. The writer cites the Bernie Banton case as a disgrace where the unions fought hard for justice and another case where a worker was severely injured in a coal accident working for BHP and after ten years still has not received compensation. Union Thuggery?

I have worked on the factory floor and in management and know that properly managed unions are vital for workers. I've fought for the union yet at times have stood against them when I saw what I considered wrongful action. It can be bloody hard to be the only one out of step and you often cop it from both sides.

No. The core of this argument should be the temptation and misuse of power, it applies everywhere. Just to cite unions, and practically all of one strata, is to distort this discussion into a ranting, shouting match.

Jerry

Misuse of power applies across the board.

The problem with the union movement is that to be effective, everyone has to be a member. If you have members and non-members working for the same organisation, problems arise. One side says "why should I join a union, they do nothing for me, it should be my decision?" The other side says "why should you benefit from the activities of the union when you are not a member?"

That gives rise to the closed shop, and that's where the problems start. Get rid of unions altogether and replace that system with something funded by the government that addresses employment issues on behalf of ALL employees.

ch chk ch chk ch chk...

:)

They did that,
think it was called workchoices.

Very simple question guys, only requiring a yes or no answer.
Would any of you feel safe working on a skyrise, mine, or on the docks(and Im not talking about subbies) without any union representation or presence?

astrid

Where is the rats ring option?

Silentc,

I thought I had said misuse of power is across the board.

Problem with giving control of workplace to civil servants (why civil servants? Often they are neither civil or servant. cheap shot but couldn't resist it) is that they have no close understanding of the workplace. Their main aim in life is to avoid responsibility which they often do by burying action in masses of legislation and rules that only they can interpret. I believe that the best way to kill an idea is to give it to a committee and let them talk it to death and they do that extremely well.

Government and Opposition by their very nature have ideologies that are different. So to give control to Government agencies is to disrupt the workplace with every change of Government or have I misread the last few years?

Jerry

I was a Union site once and they were the biggest bunch of bludgers I have ever met! I know of one simple task a person could do by himself but the union delegated 4 workers to do the job so what happened all 4 did a paper scissors rock play off to see who was working for the day and the rest went and had a sleep and played ping pong and got paid for it unbelievable!and this was their job everyday

Hi Astrid

I think if you want to join a union then you should have that right. Dont wont to join a union then you should have that right.

Live and let live I say.

Unions and business are like Labor and Liberal. The further away from the middle the more fundamentalist they become, hence what we have seen politically in the past.

Labor gets in, the left and the unions take power, country gets treated like a cash cow and we go into debt and the employers get screwed.

Liberal gets in, business gets power, treats the workers like thier own personal serfs, serfs get the sh**s and the country ends up with workchoices or similar.

Both get turned over by the population who are happy with the middle.

Unions exist to stop employers bullying and abusing workers.

Occasionally unions have bullied and abused workers who don't want to join a union.

Maybe non-union type workers need an anti-union! Problem is though, the anti-union would abuse its power by bullying pro-union workers from joining unions. :rolleyes:

Ok, jokes aside, the problem with this whole issue is the refusal by some to accept that unions and employees rights are not intrinsically linked - they aren't. Fundamentally, the unions are simply a mechanism of convenience used by employees to put their perspective to the employers. When the unions cease to represent the workers and provide value to the workers it is only natural the workers will drift away.

This is not to say that unions are not trying where they can, it may be a reflection of a changed employment environment and other forces that are at play to protect worker's rights and conditions. The unions may make their position a lot weaker by abusing their powers and occasionally bullying the membership.

To stretch a long bow, the discussion is a little similar to the need to have a Defence force. Do you need it in time of peace? Some Defence forces are bad and stage coups, but not all. It really depends on the authority given to them by the people. Not everyone wants a Defence force or believes in violence, but in times of conflict everyone benefits from it. The peacenicks are not left to defend themselves. The overall view though, is that a Defence force is a handy thing to have ready, just in case of bad times. So, with unions, maybe they are a handy thing to have, the major problem we have is getting them to behave.

Hi Astrid,
Good question
"Would any of you feel safe working on a skyrise, mine, or on the docks(and Im not talking about subbies) without any union representation or presence?
I would have often felt a lot safer if their was not a union presence, a whole lot safer, luckly unlike some I did not have a family.

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Problem with giving control of workplace to civil servants

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I didn't say controlled by the government, I said funded by the government - similar to legal aid. I'm trying to think of a way of having the independent representation given by unions without the membership issue.

We have the Arbitration Commission but if that was working properly, we wouldn't need unions at all.