Kids Behaviours, who is to blame?

I feel there is no easy answer.

I was mistreated at school and at home by my old man.

I got in trouble, I got out of trouble. but I was smart - I worked out why I got caught and worked around it. I got caned, whipped, flogged, teased, bastardised. by everyone (except mum - bless her!) the lot.

I dont feel there are any easy answers - each kid is different, and have to be treated as such.

whos fault was it ? EVERYONE involved. Humans are meat eaters, meat eaters are smart, aggressive, domineering and social animals. It's in our blood...

I think you just gotta take responsibility for your own actions and your own kids. I at least have a good role model for my kid - I know what went wrong for me and I just have to follow the opposite path. he might turn into a bad person, but I hope he wont. I just hope im up to doing the right thing and showing him the right way.

A few things I WILL try to teach him;

If someone hits you hit him back, but dont hit first.
Think of the consequences of your actions.
Treat people the way you want to be treated.
Dont try to make others be like you. Dont let them make you be like them.
Stay away from drugs and god botherers.
KNow when to walk away.
Be true to yourself.
Love your mum.

what a depressing subject!!!!!!! :(

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Originally Posted by Zed

A few things I WILL try to teach him;

If someone hits you hit him back, but dont hit first.
Think of the consequences of your actions.
Treat people the way you want to be treated.
Dont try to make others be like you. Dont let them make you be like them.
Stay away from drugs and god botherers.
KNow when to walk away.
Be true to yourself.
Love your mum.

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Thats all you can do Zed. Teach your children what you believe in and point them in the right direction and hope they turn out a better person for it. Thats all any of us can do.The rest is up to the child.

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Wish someone had the answer.

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I dont have it all, I do know that kids model the behaviour of those around them and particularly those they respect. Essentially they feed our own behaviour back to us until they reach the age when peers count for more, teenage years I think,

youth is wasted on the young.:(

This may be off-track a little, and I apologise in advance, but I'm sure that teachers also need to take a few lessons from history. I refer specifically to the huge numbers of people in our society who were misjudged by teachers and were "written off" as "average" or "not likely to succeed at a high leverl" and so on.

I listen daily to an ABC radio program by Richard Fidler, called "Conversation Hour" (11 am). It absolutely amazes me the number of highly successful people he talks with were rejected in such a way by judgemental teachers. Surgeons, Billionaires, writers, actors, lawyers, (yes, and even programmers) were all told at school that they were "average".

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Originally Posted by Rossluck

This may be off-track a little, and I apologise in advance, but I'm sure that teachers also need to take a few lessons from history. I refer specifically to the huge numbers of people in our society who were misjudged by teachers and were "written off" as "average" or "not likely to succeed at a high leverl" and so on.

I listen daily to an ABC radio program by Richard Fidler, called "Conversation Hour" (11 am). It absolutely amazes me the number of highly successful people he talks with were rejected in such a way by judgemental teachers. Surgeons, Billionaires, writers, actors, lawyers, (yes, and even programmers) were all told at school that they were "average".

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Start another thread, its a great topic

Ross,

Agree with what you say totally. I listened to the conversation hour and they had some "full on" african american guy recently who was a druggie and was on "last chance" and thus turned his life around... and now is the head honcho for some druggie institute in Australia. what makes him even more interesting given his background, you would think, that his teaching/experience would allow him to be a great role model. (He probably is) ALAS hsi own kid died of a H overdose..

Goes back to some previous points; all you can do is try to do the best u can. kids have to take responsibility for thier own actions... harsh lesson for the above and his (only) kid.

I get very upset when I hear about parents losing thier kids and most unfortunatly "only" kids. my heart goes out to them.

Also off tangent - i went to the macca's charity ball the last weekend and they always play a vid of sick kids and how they are affected/helped... I'd had a few drinks by then and the vid affects me every year... I get quite emotional and need to hug my kid!!! My wife has excused me from watching the vid next year.... I reckon the donations after the vid are thru the roof for a few minutes while those memories are fresh in parents minds....

I never thought I would say it; but thank mother earth for macca's charity house!

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Originally Posted by namtrak

Unconditional love is all any kid wants. End of story.

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That's all a kid wants alright.

And part of giving unconditional love is setting parameters to enable the kid to grow into a responsible human being. A parent has greater responsibility than just to love a kid. Love comes naturally.

There wouldn't be many of us round here now if our ancestors had adopted the "unconditional love" approach to teaching their kids about the dangers of Raptors!

It's OK to flog a kid unconditionally.

P
:D

Actually all my kid wants is more playstation time and more Lego pirates. I spent months making him a cupboard to put them in. The first thing he wanted to do was hide in it. But it does give me an idea. Sensory deprivation is supposed to be good for the soul, isn't it?

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Originally Posted by Sebastiaan56

I dont have it all, I do know that kids model the behaviour of those around them and particularly those they respect. Essentially they feed our own behaviour back to us until they reach the age when peers count for more, teenage years I think,

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Exactly, as I said earlier, children behave the way they know you want them to behave and I dont think we can blame peer pressure. If it was true that the child was so easily influenced in such a short time frame, how come the values that we, as parents have spent more than ten years teaching them, are so easily discarded by some children.
I think the truth lies in your statement above "they feed our own behaviour back to us" because they know that is what you want to see, thats how you want them to behave. When they get older and they don't have to answer to mum or dad, then, I truly believe, the real person comes to life.

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Originally Posted by munruben

Exactly, as I said earlier, children behave the way they know you want them to behave and I dont think we can blame peer pressure. If it was true that the child was so easily influenced in such a short time frame, how come the values that we, as parents have spent more than ten years teaching them, are so easily discarded by some children.
I think the truth lies in your statement above "they feed our own behaviour back to us" because they know that is what you want to see, thats how you want them to behave. When they get older and they don't have to answer to mum or dad, then, I truly believe, the real person comes to life.

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Hi John,

by modelling Im talking about a more unconcious process. Some examples; start yawning in a meeting, 5 minutes later everyone is yawning too. Similarly one uni class I attended the students increasingly sat on the LHS of the room, so where did the lecturer gravitate to? If violence is used kids learn violence, if they observe patience and tolerance they will tend to be more tolerant etc. Same for alcohol/drug use, gambling, religion etc. Violence is endemic in our culture, football, politics, media, computor games etc. So violence becomes an OK response because they see it all around them. I truly believe they are little parrots, they show us how we behave.

Teenage years, things change. Peer pressure becomes progressively more important. It isnt helped by the hormone thing. Rebelling is a valid way of determining who you want to be, pity it can be destructive. And............ the big caveat........... "all kids are different"

Totally agree about your comment about getting away from their parents to become real people. I'll go one further and say it seldom happens before someone is 40yo or until there is a major upheaval that reorients priorities. (apols to the younger people on the list). Sometimes it never happens.

A lot of this is theory and observation, my boys are 9 & 11 so I have some way to go, but I hope they have the backbone to choose a smart peer group when the time comes,

Sebastiaan

This is such an interesting topic and I've read with interest all of your comments on the subject.

My personal opinion is that each kid is different. My sister had an awful lot of respect for authority. I, on the other hand, did not. When I did something bad, my parents adopted the same principle as they would with my sister - they'd flog me. It just made me more and more angry and far, far worse. At the end of it, I would be regretting the horrible things I said to my parents whilst at the same time resenting them for the flogging.

What I needed was, when I was naughty, for my folks to ask me to go to my room for x amount of time (depending on age) to think about what I had done. On the odd occassion they did this, it worked. I would come out from my room, having sincerely thought about my actions, and I would sincerely apologise (I was always taught to mean it when I apologise).

Tailoring parenting to children's needs is the key, I think. I am of the opinion that there really is no need for hitting children (unless it is a smack on the fingers to get them away from danger etc), and mutual respect is what should be fostered. Children need to respect their parents wishes, but at the same time, I think it is important for parents to respect *SOME* of their children's wishes.

I am struggling a little with a lot of things, as I recently found out I am pregnant. In about 25 weeks, we will have a little one and I have a lot of thoughts about parenting that I would like to embrace. For instance, television is the root of a lot of evil in children. So many of those 'kids' movies feature violence and bad language, and I really do not think that this is appropriate - particularly not unsupervised. A kids movie should be something children watch on special occasions with their family - not something that is implemented as a subsitute babysitter when the parents are too busy to look after them, or do not wish to look after them. The smart thing would be to take them to a park, where you can sit whilst they play.

I also think children need to learn about common courtesy (please, thank you, excuse me, may I etc) and respect for other people. Children are too aware of their rights, and that comes from parents who wrap them in cotton so that they turn into the little sissies they are these days.

As a migrant from Denmark, I've seen two sides of the story. Over there, we didn't wear uniforms, called our teachers by first name and were taught to stick together as a class (we also weren't shuffled around every year like kids here are) and look after eachother - which we did. We also had a lot of respect for our teachers. Coming out here was like stepping into the stone age. We had to wear ugly uniforms, call our mumu wearing teachers by surname and behave like robots. I found this very difficult, as I was used to being respected and liked by my teachers. Instead, teachers here would scream at us when we were noisy, make us write lines, give detention etc. Over there, the teachers would phone our parents, who would then sit down and have a good chat with us that night. That solved problems. Being sent to the office and screamed at by a mumu wearng headmaster with a face like a chicken *rse, did not.

I think a lot of what is happening these days, is that parents are working long hours and justify this by buying extravagant gifts for their children. If both parents have to work (which I realise that some do), why not forgive yourself, accept that children have fun at after school care, and spend the weekends on them, rather than dragging them around to shopping centres which all kids hate anyway...

BehviourS? Is this from a teacher???
Personally I am a perfect parent.... I will get my sons to post that on here too, just as soon as they get their extradition problems sorted out.

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Originally Posted by SPIRIT

SS please don't use spastic in that way l also work with people with disabilty and its a bit like the nigger word to them:).

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sorry bout that. i didnt mean any offence:)

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Originally Posted by Burnsy

No not at all, especially if you are 15.

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thanx mate:cool:

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Originally Posted by Sebastiaan56

Hi John,

If violence is used kids learn violence, if they observe patience and tolerance they will tend to be more tolerant etc. Same for alcohol/drug use, gambling, religion etc. Violence is endemic in our culture, football, politics, media, computor games etc. So violence becomes an OK response because they see it all around them.
Sebastiaan

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I gotta disagree with you there mate, I was subject to horrendous violence. I wont go into details but think about fishing poles and naked torso's - multiply that a few times.... Those of you that have met me would have an inkling - My "father" is the same size as I and I was between the ages of 4 - 15.... a bit of a late bloomer.

having said that; I am very non violent - I can talk a tough game, Ill grant you that. BUT I have not been violent for many many years and never have I provoked violence against myself. I have on a number of occasions defended the weak and/or abused tho. pity the offender, im ashamed of some o th stuff I did.

Im living proof countering your opinion in this regard.

i think the prime thing to learn here is that kids are different - they dont all respond to violence in kind.

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Originally Posted by bitingmidge

There wouldn't be many of us round here now if our ancestors had adopted the "unconditional love" approach to teaching their kids about the dangers of Raptors!

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A quick revision of your anthropology will show that humans weren't around during the time of the dinosaurs.

But seriously, so many kids only receive love based on a complicated and unspoken set of conditions.

I will love you as long as your room is clean.

I will love you as long you don't end up on the dole.

I will love you as long as I can live my life vicariously through you.

I will love your school work as long as you improve it.

I will love you as long as I approve of your friends.

So many kids grow up believing they have to earn the love of those around them. That their position within their family, school, peer group is conditional upon their behaviour. etc

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Originally Posted by namtrak

vicariously

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PRECARIOUSLY mate - totally dif meaning!!!! lol!!

so long as u didnt mean vivaciously!! :D

No monkey man, I actually did mean vicariously!!

Parents who want their kids to grow up and achieve things they never did.

BTW Zed, did you have a part in this website?

no, nice hijack!

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Originally Posted by derekcohen

A couple of questions for Burnsy and other teachers ...
When faced with an unruly student in your classroom, what do you do?

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No easy answer to this one Derek, as I know you know, each kid is different and requires a different response. The response does need however to be transparent so that the other kids view it as resonable and do not feel that someone is getting special treatment. The only straight answer I could give is in a case where a student is endangering others, themselves or staff and that is removal of the danger, through restraint if required.

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Originally Posted by derekcohen

When students fail to show any respect for your efforts at discipline, what can you do?

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Not alot, if they are a child who has active parents then a call home or simply the threat of one can help. This is assuming of course that the child is aware of what they have done wrong, why it was wrong and the need for consequences, some need these spelt out to them others pick it up themselves.

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Originally Posted by derekcohen

Do you seek out the support of your head/principal, and if so what does this person do?

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Yes, we have a system of using red cards when assistance is required. The Admin are very supportive and will increase the consequence if students refuse to follow instructions or do as they were initially asked.

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Originally Posted by derekcohen

Do you feel that the teachers in your school act as a team, and will unite in mutual support to enforce "consequences of actions"?

Regards from Perth

Derek

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Yes, our school would not function without everyone supporting each other. We only have one Deputy and that is seldom enough so many of us spend our DOTT (Duties Other Than Teaching) time running around after red cards and helping out.

PS Much better day today and it was woodwork afternoon to top it off:2tsup:

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Originally Posted by Burnsy

Are the ED unit kids in their own class or are they integrated into regular classes?

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They have their own class + have one-two hours in regular if they can cope with it.

CP

Some will remember I posted yesterday (page 2) concerning my g'daughter going to the principal...
Quote [(1) just today
10 yr old g'daughter came over - very sad and upset
seems one of her friends at school told her that her mother had punched and kicked her... always doing it, she said...
g'daughter told her mother (who is a pre-school teacher - mandatory reporter and all that...) who advised g'daughter to tell prinicipal (she went with her) on the grounds that better to stop it now rather than let it escalate further...
Right or wrong... what worries me is that my g'daughter could end up in flames by telling the principal...] End quote

Ok - well here's what happened...
G'daughter went to school. 10am phone call to her mother - please come to the school, your daughter is crying and upset: arrives to find g'daughter and said girl (abuse victim) sitting together in principals office - "it's okay, they're the best of friends and girl says she's glad g'daughter told somebody cos she wasn't brave enough..." says principal... But then says "I think it would be better if you took (g'daughter) out of school today cos DOCS has been informed and there might be some trouble..."
Shee!... Does this principal have ANY common sense at all..?
What is it with these egoistic morons that they believe they can intervene in children's lives..? Teacher knows best... Does he even flapping realise what damage he is potentially causing by discussing this with BOTH kids present - and NO parents - and sod-all psychological experience in counselling abused kids, except his own damned ideation of how bloody clever he must be - cos he's the principal...
What the hell was he thinking when he called the 2 kids into his office for a little tete a tete..?
Why didn't he just do his damned duty as a mandatory reporter and inform DOCS and let them do their job?
Sorry for the vent and the rant - but some of the other things my g'daughter comes home and tells me about what teachers (and the principal) have said and done have resulted in my interventions (interviews with teachers and principals generally lead to nowhere - cos they know far more than us parents and g'parents)
I believe that the teaching fraternity contribute MUCH to the growing of our kids with their own negativity towards kids... I'll end with this - One female teacher said to me personally (about my g'daughter) "Well she can be an insolent little bitch at times..."
"Hey - Teacher... Leave them kids alone..."
Jedo

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Originally Posted by Christopha

BehviourS? Is this from a teacher???

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Can't find the quote anywhere but if it was me it was because my fingers can't keep up:). I am not however, trying to put across that I am a great speller, I have said before on this board that I am not. It is one thing that try as I may I just can not grasp, simple rules just pass me by and I confuse myself. It is extremely irritating and annoys me to no end. I write all my reports and correspondence with a dictionary by my side. My students know it is my weakness and will come to me with a dictionary and ask me to help them find a word rather than just asking "Mr Burns, how do you spell conscientious?" Yes I looked it up:rolleyes:

But that is a separate topic so I will not hijack the thread any further.

Burnsy,

I have recently attended an NCIS training day. Non- confrontational intervention Strategies (95% how to talk to kids and 5% how to grab them). What it taught me - the old bloke was that we, as teachers have the advantage. We can anticipate what will happen and can plan for it.

Some of my colleagues just wait for something to happen and react.
Kids are clever and they see disruptive behavior modelled on TV. One teacher had a group 'kept in' and writing out school rules. One kid called out ' there's a spelling mistake in the rules.' I'm there thinking ignore! Another kid calls out 'Yeh'. The teacher says, without looking at the rules .........................'No there's not.' What developed was unbelievable. Almost a riot about the spelling of words on a rule sheet. Bad reaction!


Today in woodwork, I was sitting with some lovely kids from the IM class who are integrated into my class and I was holding a length of western red cedar 10mm X 50mm X 2 metres. I jokingly said 'This would be a long smacking stick to hrry people up'. The loveliest little 10 y.o. girl looked at me through her glasses and said ' Dad uses his belt at home on us.'

There are no simple answers to Burnsy's situation. When you need to make big decisions you can only go on what you really believe. Do kids really need to be drinking out of Dad's can when they are 2? Should 8 year olds be watching 'American Pie'?

Carry Pine

/rant on

You've got the common do-gooder to thank for that. 'Oh no, the child needs counselling. Don't give him a quick strap across the wrists for ....'

Alright, I'm only a young bull and all and went through school without the fear of a hiding, but what I see from the same and newer generations is nothing short of appalling.

I'm not saying we need corporal punishment, just less of this 'everyone's a victim' BS.

High time I reckon kids be made to learn consequences of their actions, rather than have a bloody shrink diagnose them. That simple..

I was told once that people had expectations of themselves and others that were written in places, but didn't need reminding. Folks were taught what they were from day one. Somewhere along the lines, it's all been against the wall.

Parents, Teachers, Do-Gooders alike, lift your game. :~

Actually, we'd be better off without the do-gooders. P!ss off, ya blaggers. :((

No offence intended to Burnsey or others specifically, more so entire groups as a whole. I'm sure of which there are good and bad eggs in each. :wink:

/rant off.

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Originally Posted by Carry Pine

Burnsy,

I have recently attended an NCIS training day. Non- confrontational intervention Strategies (95% how to talk to kids and 5% how to grab them). What it taught me - the old bloke was that we, as teachers have the advantage. We can anticipate what will happen and can plan for it.

Some of my colleagues just wait for something to happen and react.
Kids are clever and they see disruptive behavior modelled on TV. One teacher had a group 'kept in' and writing out school rules. One kid called out ' there's a spelling mistake in the rules.' I'm there thinking ignore! Another kid calls out 'Yeh'. The teacher says, without looking at the rules .........................'No there's not.' What developed was unbelievable. Almost a riot about the spelling of words on a rule sheet. Bad reaction!


Today in woodwork, I was sitting with some lovely kids from the IM class who are integrated into my class and I was holding a length of western red cedar 10mm X 50mm X 2 metres. I jokingly said 'This would be a long smacking stick to hrry people up'. The loveliest little 10 y.o. girl looked at me through her glasses and said ' Dad uses his belt at home on us.'

There are no simple answers to Burnsy's situation. When you need to make big decisions you can only go on what you really believe. Do kids really need to be drinking out of Dad's can when they are 2? Should 8 year olds be watching 'American Pie'?

Carry Pine

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We have done quite alot of training on different systems and approaches and I find you usually get something out of each one. As I said in my response to Derek, I believe there is no one response or answer that fits all for a given behaviour and unfortunately to many university lecturers make undergraduates believe there is. Every prac teacher that comes into my class comments that in regard to our school, the lecturers are so far off the ball it is not funny.

I am with you on the riot thing, there are to many teachers around who are not willing to admit to kids that they were, or are wrong and all it does is cause conflict. I always admit when I am wrong to my class and appologise if I do the wrong thing such as blame an innocent party.

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Originally Posted by Burnsy

Can't find the quote anywhere but if it was me it was because my fingers can't keep up:). I am not however, trying to put across that I am a great speller, I have said before on this board that I am not. It is one thing that try as I may I just can not grasp, simple rules just pass me by and I confuse myself. It is extremely irritating and annoys me to no end. I write all my reports and correspondence with a dictionary by my side. My students know it is my weakness and will come to me with a dictionary and ask me to help them find a word rather than just asking "Mr Burns, how do you spell conscientious?" Yes I looked it up:rolleyes:

But that is a separate topic so I will not hijack the thread any further.

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Burnsy, maaate, it's the heading of this whole thread.
"Kids Behaviours, who is to blame?" :wink:

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Originally Posted by Burnsy

I am with you on the riot thing, there are to many teachers around who are not willing to admit to kids that they were, or are wrong and all it does is cause conflict. I always admit when I am wrong to my class and appologise if I do the wrong thing such as blame an innocent party.

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Burnsy this is why I said you are one of many good teachers It is a shame that so many others can not admit they are human and have faults.

The kids in question your original post and vent they could be the sort of kid who has been upset by the changes at the school including your roll taking you or the other person your relieving away.

I saw this at a primary school here in Sydney where the teachers went through the whole year to year changes with the kids from kindy to 2nd class then from there other teachers took them to 6th having the same teacher year after year. These kids were unbelievable manners everything close to these teachers as close as any parent might be.

The problem came when they left and went on to high school they couldn't cope couldn't handle the many teachers in one day a few of the students had to go back and repeat due to health issues brought on by the practice. The primary school had to change its ways. Teachers left because of it the 3 or 4 high schools had to learn how to cope and handle those kids for 5 years.

To many of these children it was there first stable thing in this country they had this was back in the 75's/80's and close to a immigration centre.

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Originally Posted by wheelinround

I saw this at a primary school here in Sydney where the teachers went through the whole year to year changes with the kids from kindy to 2nd class then from there other teachers took them to 6th having the same teacher year after year. These kids were unbelievable manners everything close to these teachers as close as any parent might be.

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We have muti age classes and loop many kids as you mentioned. I have a few in my class this year for the third time and they are brilliant because we all understand each other very well as you say and it allows us to have alot of fun. There are others I had had for two years that I had to swap out this year as I could not stand to have them in my class again due to the constant stress. Other teachers were in the same boat so we swap a few troubled ones around to give each other a break, sometimes it is better the devil you don't know:rolleyes:

I think essentially most of the issues our kids have are driven by their out of school environment. As they mature, especially with the year sevens, there are those that make massive shifts in their behaviour as they suddenly look around and realise what they are doing and take control of their learning. It is funny to see this happen as many with younger siblings suddenly question the behaviour of the younger ones and can't understand why they don't get it and make the change. We have one such boy who I often see telling his little brother "no detentions today OK?" as they part company in the morning.

Thanks for everyones responses, it has been great to hear the different view points and angles.

so l think we have covered why kid are so disruptive but how are we going about fixing it or are we just going to keep putting bandaid stop gaps in place

l hear in the UK that they are going to over haul the education system from the bottom up ,spending heeps of money ,:?

l have a new kid in my team a EMO cuts and all ,where do you start with kids this messed up ,

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Originally Posted by Sebastiaan56

A lot of this is theory and observation, my boys are 9 & 11 so I have some way to go, but I hope they have the backbone to choose a smart peer group when the time comes,

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And the wisdom to know the difference.

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Originally Posted by Article99

/rant on

You've got the common do-gooder to thank for that. 'Oh no, the child needs counselling. Don't give him a quick strap across the wrists for ....'.

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Yeah and the counselor probably hasn't even got any kids but he can tell you what to do cos he's read the text book on child behavior.
You raise some good points. :2tsup:

I am a teacher like the others who has seen and suffered the same as the others who have replied. Our kids are not like us ,some of them are affected by a huge range of factors that did not apply to us when we were growing up.

The following I believe are some of the reasons why some of the kids act the way they do.Its not an excuse for them ,nor is it a criticism,its an observation.It does not apply to all kids.There still are a good number that are still being raised well.

Split families –divorce separation –a lack of a father figure.I see problem kids that ride roughshod over Mum and occasionally Dad.

Socio economic –Mum and dad both work full time- but not near enough time spent with the kids. Too much time spent unaccounted for with their peer group while Mum and Dad are toiling to pay off expensive houses and consumer goods.

Peer group –attitudes formed among the peer group are near impossible to overcome- many kids behave according to the expectations of the peer group.

Environment-some of these kids endure home conditions that would make you weep- outright abuse from drunken or drug addict parents –etc.

Media especially the TV –attitudes and behaviors are copied from what they hear and see- remember the stuff on laser beam assaults- guess who got shot in the eyes with a laser beam pointer -2 days after a few instances of the problem was reported on TV.

TV and Movies, DVDs that also demonstrate to the kids that it is other peoples rights mean nothing. Personal property and that of others does not need respect as you will get a new one. Watch any action movie and death ,injury, assault and property damage features high in the action scenes.

Communication technology in general is faceless and anonymous, therefore little responsibility is needed.An example is the anonymous bullying by SMS. Do you know most kids with a phone ignore parent and school rules and still bring them to school.What can a teacher do? Take the phone from the student until last lesson.Until that time we are responsible for an expensive phone.Some kids use the phone photo video system to record out of school fights that are provoked ( yes provoked)

Lack of real penalties for real misbehavior in school-do you think being suspended from school is a punishment for poor behavior-it’s a reward. Punishment is taking something away that the offender wants.Usually that is in the parental domain,

Back to banging our heads against the wall!

And No,I don't have a real solution either
Grahame

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Originally Posted by Grahame Collins

Peer group –attitudes formed among the peer group are near impossible to overcome- many kids behave according to the expectations of the peer group.

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Nevertheless, this is the child's decision to follow the leader, you can't blame the company you keep for your behavior. Its a personal, calculated decision by the individual to follow the path they choose.

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some of these kids endure home conditions that would make you weep- outright abuse from drunken or drug addict parents –etc.

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This is nothing new, It has been going on for generations but I agree would have a negative effect on children of that family but don't see that it would necessarily cause the child to turn out bad. I have known of case similar to this where the child has only been too pleased to get out of the home and lead a normal life because they have experienced first hand what it's like to live under those terrible conditions.

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especially the TV –attitudes and behaviors are copied from what they hear and see- remember the stuff on laser beam assaults- guess who got shot in the eyes with a laser beam pointer -2 days after it was reported on TV.

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I think TV has a lot to answer for with the quality of material it shoves down out throat. I guess we weren't subjected to the graphic displays of violence and the lack of moral standards portrayed on the screen today but where, as parents, did we go wrong and allow this to happen. When did we start to allow the swearing in public places and why do we tolerate this kind of behavior? and it's not just the kids who do this. I hear adults my own age swearing in public, at the local club I visit, out in the streets and on TV. Why did we allow that to happen in the first place?

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that also demonstrate to the kids that it is other peoples rights mean nothing. Personal property and that of others does not need respect as you will get a new one. Watch any action movie and death ,injury, assault and property damage features high in the action scenes.

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I agree, the quality, again, is appalling .Just take a look at our locally produced "Home and away" to see the moral values and disrespect to the older generation they show us every day of the week but we still have to take responsibility for our own actions surely I still feel that people behave the way they do because thats the way they want to behave. We are all subjected to these things mentioned in this thread by yourself and others but we are not all murderers or criminals or rapists. So what made these people turn out the way they did, why didn't we all turn out bad.
I'm sorry but I can't believe that the influence of TV, movies, peer pressure or whatever can make a person do what he or she doesn't want to do. We hear it in the courts so often that "poor 20 year old Johnny had a bad life is on drugs, saw it on TV, peer pressure etc.caused him to do what he did" It's always someone else's fault never poor little Johnnies fault.
Lets live in the real world for once, I had peer pressure, I had TV and movies showing people doing the wrong things. I read of crime and rape and murder in the newspapers. I mixed with "bad" people. I saw bad things happen. I chose not to do those things
Whatever it is inside of me, made me make that decision while others chose to go the other way. I left school when I was 9 years old I had no real education but I worked hard to be a better person and struggled to achieve a better lifestyle than my parents had and I did that. I had plenty of chances to take the easy way out and make excuses as to why I couldn't succeed in life but I got on with the job instead of blaming everyone else for my "hard luck" I taught myself by reading books.
No, I don't know the answers but lets stop blaming everyone and everything else for someones bad behavior and face reality and stop making excuses for them and let them face the consequences of their actions.

Who is to blame?

One thing that I realised about 2 years ago was that it is no use blaming anybody who is irresponsible. People in authority know it is no use telling a down-and-out person that he suffers from alcohol abuse and contributes nothing to the community. Better to blame someone who is in a responsible position like his parents , school teachers or politicians. When kids won't do homework or wear uniform at school parents look to the teachers to enforce the 'rule' and if it's not done, the teachers are responsible. If a child goes agro in my class, his parents ask 'What did you do to set him off?'. If a kid mucks up on the way home from school on the bus, the driver has lost control.

And even if we could answer Burnsy's question about who is responsible, what could we do about it? As a teacher, I'm not prepared to accept the responsibility for what a kid wears to school or when he swears at school staff. His parents will say that he has a school uniform but sneaks other clothes into his bag and that maybe the teacher provoked him.(Let's have a time wasting session to replay everything that happened in the lesson so we find out it really wasn't the kid's fault.)

Some people are very close to others who are victims of addiction. Far from writing their friends and relations off, they assist them, pay their fines, clean up after them and sometimes stand in the way of them going to jail. When that person finally comes around, the helper is labelled as an 'enabler'. The addiction wouldn't have been so bad if those do-gooders hadn't been enabling him over those years. Sometimes you try and do the responsible thing and you get it thrown in your face.

Carry Pine

Kids are like border collies. First two years sets thier behaviours for life IMO.

We rarely smack our children and if so its a small one on the hand that hurts thier pride more than anything else.

Just like a border collie its consistancy. EVERY time they need direction they get it. If they are stepping out of line they need to be stopped immediately, and if that means stopping your conversation mid sentence/turning from the TV or putting down the garden hose then you need to do that.

We have had our kids in both public and private (catholic). Would choose catholic over public anyday. At least the teachers are given support and dont need to take crap from any kid.

I feel for you burnsy, thanks for your efforts, but the orcs are at the walls, Grond is battering the front gate, and the darkness is open you. :p

Best to be moving on to greener pastures if you can. :)

Burnsy I recall you saying your not a parent yet ???

From the day we are born we are being poked proded and stared at, told to grow up, act a particular way, behave, try this try that, back ground has nothing to do with any of these things

Socio-economics has nothing to do with bad or good behaviour rich and famous poor ,stupid, dumb etc all.

Many have said before look around you and see what/who is beaking laws throwing tamntrums, taking drugs, grog, those who are getting away with it always hide it the most.

I know a teacher who was at private catholic schools all her life, is at present on long service leave pending retirement who has slung all her investments to her kids which includes 4 properties, just so she can go and claim the Gov pention.
She see's herself as honest hard working paid her taxes and deserves some back. She is earning cash in hand for work she is tutoring this includes deals with local councils.

To this we see daily media with news of both sides fo the coin those from low income and those from high income all breaking the laws the same laws. It's the life draw whic dictates $$$$$ what we do with it is OUR OWN DOING.

Ok what do we do

We point out that WE/THEY/YOU are responsible for your actions if you shoot into a crowd with a gun you'll hit kill someone, If you thow a stone at a window it breaks.
One thing in life is critain DEATH we are all born to die.

If they stopped pandering and saying that OH my child can't shouldn't see that it will effect them for the rest of their lives.

I am a fine example disable for many years since age 7 when it first exposed itself 40 years on still no closer to exact diagnosis, and for 40+ years I have had to fight for the freedom to be seen heard and recognised for what I can do have done have taught myslef as well as having been taught. I have been told by proffessionals it shouldn't bother me but if thesame thing happens to an able then OH shyte they need counselling they trauma treament. My family backgound comes from both sides of the coin as many of us do.

I give the example of the rich man who used to wander Sydney's streets as a pawper putting coins meters so peole would be having to pay fines. Till he got caught and news changed his life for ever again. He had left th high flying life becasue he couldn't handle the preasure. He had to hide yet again.

Look at the ones who encourage the post it on the net they are making $$$$$$$$$$$$ from it. How much are they contributing to the cause and effect.

Truth or Dare

Well said wheelin'

Some parents behaviors even though well meaning give kids the wrong message.
Watch carefully on a very wet day.It is raining hard,how many kids wear raincoats (or should I say,are made to wear raincoats?. Where I live almost none. Students turn up for classes soaked. The same parents of some of the kids who won't wear the raincoats bring the cherubs to school in the car.

One of the school gates has the road ending at the gate.It is also the vehicle and bicycle access for school. Parents drive right to the gate and double park and /or 3 point turn to drop their cherubs closer to the school buildings so the cherubs who will not wear a raincoat will not get as wet.

It is this type of attitude that the kids pick up on.

If anyones interested I have taken the problem up with he appropriate person and have had the buck passed.Needless to say I am still working on it.
Grahame

I thought Nth Queenslaners had oily skin to repel water...:p