NC vs Acrylic Lacquer

Your assumptions are based on extreme hyperbole.

Yes.....nitro came after the first great war......they needed something to do with all that armanent nitrate.

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given the right conditions.

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Any finish will have problems given the right conditions.

Yes nitro yellows,
Yes nitro checks,
Yes nitro isn't a good choice for an automotive finish, that's why black and green were popular finishes. That's why you got pink cadilliacs that were originally white.

That's why you got an amazing butterscotch blonde telecaster that is now worth more than a years wage.

Your argument was dependant upon N/C's suitability as AN AUTOMOTIVE FINISH. That involves exposure to the elements.....more than just sunlight.....we are talking about rain, wind, extreme exposure to humidity. Yes acrylic lacquers are superior for those applications.


The reasons why N/C went out of favour are multiple....

There are a variety of issues

- It yellows.
- It checks
- It's highly explosive and is banned in many places because it is so explosive, and it's not very environmentally friendly.

But does it automatically degrade, as you suggested? No.......it needs factors to degrade.

Part of the stigma of N/C is the human error of using the finish for the wrong applications. It was used as an automotive finish simply because it was economical.It's like applying shellac as a bar top finish and then complaining about it dissolving from drunken spills.

N/C should of never been used as an automotive finish PERIOD.

Charlie watts has been playing a nitro finished drumset that was produced in 57-9. So that's 50+ years......of ROLLING STONES GRADE ABUSE........countless stages, outdoor, sweat, alcohol, grime, direct sunlight, you name it........as far as I'm concerned that's far more environmental abuse than your suggested 6 months.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PZug4854sI&feature=related"]YouTube - Charlies Drums[/ame]

Here is a 1928 Leedy Bass Drum............finished in DUCO black & blue...........The original nitro colours.....I'd say for 81 year old finish......it's in a pretty good state..........you can see the checking and wear and tear....but it's not terminal

http://www.thisolddrum.com/thisolddr...ueducobass.jpg

Nitro lacquer has it's place......If it didn't......no one would use it.

It looks great.....IMO there's nothing that gives the same effect, it's very repairable, it looks deep, it's applied faster than acrylics. Like any finish........it has it's drawbacks and they are many.

It's this inferior/superior mentality that has made polys virtually the only product on the shelf at most stores.

True I did use automotive as an example as that and marine are the extremes of paint use. If you want the best result for something you want to finish use them.

You missed the point, clear N/C is the unstable one, the UV light destroys it quickly the colours fare better. The original comments were in reply to a question about applying N/C clear on timber. If the question were about painting something else in a N/C colour then the answer is - it would be ok but better if it was done in acrylic.

If you want the best black for a top class finish then N/C black wins hands down. Thats why it was used on piano's ( they have since gone to poly because they can get the same result and have a more duralble finish) N/C it made it possible to get a first rate finish easily and it is very easy to repair. You can paint a small section in the middle of a large area and get an invisible result something hard if not impossible in most other finishes.

If someone wanted to paint something in N/C because ir is so easy to use then I would advise that he do so if thats what he wanted to do. Only trouble is you would be hard pressed finding supplies. You can get it in the USA but not of good quality here. The only N/C colour available here is poor industrial quality, used to coat things not expected to last long ( say a wheel barrow which is going to get the paint ripped off first load) but most manufactures go further and use better material such as powder coat or fast dry enamel as N/c needs buffing to get final gloss where the others dry glossy.

N/C wasn't used because it was economical. it was used because it dried fast, which cut down the problem of contamination from the air. It could be easily rubbed,buffed or touched up quickly. enamels on the other hand can't be buffed satisfactorly or touched up and they dry slowly making dust etc a real problem. When released in 1924 you could get your car painted in a day instead of weeks or months which it took before

By the way it is not highly explosive or banned because it is so, it does come from the same family as nitro glycerine but it was afailure as an explosive thats why the resulting glug was picked up as a paint . A lot of painters would argue that it was a lot safer working with N/C than the modern materials which require fresh air fed masks to protect them.

It was replaced with Acrylic (which has more volitile solvents) because it was inferior to A/L. No company is going to promote a product which can't compete with a competitors, same reason you can't get the old varnish now its just not up to scratch. All lacquers are being banned because of the massive solvent content they need to apply them (150% against 10%). Paint products are constantly being improved if any one of the vow available ones get piped by a competitors product the other manufacturer will quickly dump the old and replace it with a competitive one.

Poly is replacing them because its superior.It uses less solvent and is a lot better product, used with a hardener it dries rock hard in minutes amd doesn't need further work. lacquers require overnight drying and then polishing to achieve the same results. Lacquers also can be redisolved with solvent polys can be neally impossible to melt with paint stripper if need be.

A good clear poly can last 20 plus years against acrylic lacquers 10 years and N/C months under identical conditions.

N/C had a place it was good, I love using it but I would be hard pressed to pick it against other newer materials on something I had produced and wanted to last a long time there are better easier obtainable finishes. They may not be as fast drying though though if I had access to a heated booth they would be faster and they would certainly protect better stay in top order for a lot longer.

You know it seems to me that this debate centres around the emotional associations with finished objects from the past. It reminds me a bit of nostalgia for the crackle and pop of an LP versus the clean sound of a CD.

I guess the point is that only N/C will give an N/C finish, if that's what you are after. The fact that the items that are sought after have been finished with N/C makes the yellowed N/C look desirable, and so the wheel turns. They even have names for it eg. "butterscotch blonde", which seems to me is a whimsical way of saying "previously white but the lacquer has since turned brown".

If you are coming at it purely from the point of view of a durable clear finish, then N/C is probably not the way to go. On the other hand if you want to achieve the mellow, slightly crazed appearance of an old lacquer finish, then use N/C.

I could finish my cabinets with poly, it would be really easy to do so and I know it would outlast what I do use. However, I like the warm look of shellac, so that's what I use, even though I know it's not the most durable finish around.

I think 44Ronin is coming at it from the point of view of an early instrument enthusiast and remarks that deride the finish that identifies so many of those instruments obviously raise his hackles. He obviously feels strongly enough about the issue to dig out a two year old thread and object.

It's like that cartoon I saw once: "Are you coming to bed?" (guy frantically banging away at his keyboard) "not yet, someone is wrong on the internet!!".

Peace :)

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If you want the best black for a top class finish then N/C black wins hands down. Thats why it was used on piano's ( they have since gone to poly because they can get the same result and have a more duralble finish)

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Many prominent makers still stick with N/C.....Steinway & Sons still shoots N/C and hand polishes it

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It could be easily rubbed,buffed or touched up quickly. enamels on the other hand can't be buffed satisfactorly or touched up and they dry slowly making dust etc a real problem. When released in 1924 you could get your car painted in a day instead of weeks or months which it took before

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This is exactly why it is economical.....it makes for more efficient mass production..less labour and capital required.


Yes you argument is correct in general,

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Originally Posted by silentC

You know it seems to me that this debate centres around the emotional associations with finished objects from the past. It reminds me a bit of nostalgia for the crackle and pop of an LP versus the clean sound of a CD.

I guess the point is that only N/C will give an N/C finish, if that's what you are after. The fact that the items that are sought after have been finished with N/C makes the yellowed N/C look desirable, and so the wheel turns. They even have names for it eg. "butterscotch blonde", which seems to me is a whimsical way of saying "previously white but the lacquer has since turned brown".

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Spot on (except it yellows). That is exactly where I am coming from.

N/C ages....this aging does not have to be a negative characteristic.

In fact, to me it is a desirable and charming characteristic


From that...

https://www.petesrareguitars.com/pro..._02__66523.jpg

To this....

http://www.vintage-guitars.se/1960_F...189_tuners.jpg

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this aging does not have to be a negative characteristic

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Indeed. In fact I believe it enhances some objects.

If you've seen what happens to white silicone in a bathroom, you'll accept that yellowing isn't always desirable though :)

I'm sure someone could write a thesis on why people like imperfect things...