:club:cause its nice when the pain stops.Quote:
Originally Posted by silentC
Al :shakehands:
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:club:cause its nice when the pain stops.Quote:
Originally Posted by silentC
Al :shakehands:
Don't stop I'm having fun :DQuote:
Originally Posted by silentC
I said the same thing on page 1 so it's good to see others don't do as they said
Good on you silent (The prince of Diplomats) ... intelligent argument and persistent... a greenie for your efforts.
I still don't agree with your point of view :no: but I do appreciate your research and I now know where I stand ... I'd like to take it further over a beer sometime. :2tsup:
I'd make a distinction between why to do it, and how to do it. Why to do it (theory) is beneficial to all, and can enlighten discussion with the pro who actually does the work. How to do it would be a no-no, especially with modifications to existing construction, as the previous work might not be right.
Consider an elementary situation in plumbing. In USA anyway, hot's on the left and cold's on the right (seems to be all over the lot in EU). But not a good idea to assume this for extensions; in my house, some of them were connected wrong. Theory that "water goes downhill" is OK to discuss (I said it was elementary).
In my field of structural engineering, I can freely tell you that a simple beam has tension on the bottom and compression on the top (theory). But if you want actual beam dimensions, hire a local pro.
Joe
I can see Silent C's point to a certain extent.
If someone asked the question "My 10 Amp fuse blew is it OK to replace it with a 20 Amp fuse?" How would you answer that question?
1. Would you tell them to employ the services of a qualified electrician because that is the law?
2. Would you tell them that like explosives and the black plague you have no knowledge of electricity and it scares you and you feel it should scare everyone else so leave it to a sparky who because he has limited training, a piece of paper and insurance he is immune to electric shocks?
3. Would you tell them that a 10 Amp fuse should only be replaced with a 10 amp fuse? BTW legally only a qualified sparky can do the job.
I agree with you Joe.
4. Would you tell them to identify what caused the fuse to blow, overcome that problem and then replace it with a fuse of the same rating? Start by unplugging all appliances on that circuit and then plugging them in one by one ...... BTW legally only a qualified sparky can do the job.
I have problems with the first three responses.
The first response is correct but offers only legal advice. Who is allowed to give legal advice anyway?
The second response is one typically given by someone who has no knowledge on the subject but feels they should post a response anyway.
The third response is correct but does nothing apart from tell the reader the obvious.
The fourth response I feel is the best because it is technically and legally correct plus it attempts to resolve the person's problem.
I think a few of us are debating this topic knocking the first three responses.
Sorry for not answering before, I got sidetracked by the parallel thread, then a stolen car has destroyed my front fence... I had better days.Quote:
Originally Posted by silentC
It is indeed clear cut, but it specifically relates to building a house: it means that a builder can not employ people to do electrical work if they are not licensed. Anyway, the simplest way to clarify the matter is to call the licencing board in your state, like I did, and see what they tell you. I'll bet that it is the same as in SA. The legislation does appear consistent.
Okay enough of this bickering and muckin about!!! IVE GOT A FRIGGIN ISSUE HERE!! :~
So I bought a welder today right... right! so I got it home and its got a 15amp plug right... right! so I know I dont have any 15amp outlets right... right! so Im thinkin Im a right friggin wally this time right... right!
But there I am just starting to fret about having to try to get the fellas at Perth Tools and Machinery Sales here in Bunbury to swap it for something else that has a 10amp plug and get to thinking about what to aim for so I go to CIGs homepage and download the info/spec sheets on their arc welders
I find mine right there no worries transarc easywelder turbo "light industrial" no problems so I start to move down through the pages and I find myself in the "industrial welders" section and I find this little number Transarc 141VRD so I look at the plug setup and it says
"SUPPLY PLUG AND LEAD:
15 amp lead, 10 amp plug"
EH WHASSAT??... so theyre making a sodding INDUSTRIAL welder thats supposedly more industrially compatable than the transarc easywelder turbo in my shed that has a poxy 15amp plug that I cant use... that has a 15amp lead WITH a 10amp plug??? So does this mean I can simply change the sodding plug without affecting the supply or performance of the machine or what???
Damn this sorta thing is bloody riritating!!... sorry if I sound phissed of fellas but geeeeeeez give me a break! IF they make one with both a 15amp lead and a 10amp plug thats supposedly higher rated for use then surely its a given that a lower rating one can also have the 10amp plug on the 15amp lead???
Now to me thats the sorta question that SCREAMS to be asked!!
Wild Dingo,
An interesting dilemma, with an obvious ,simple solution. As you have no 15 amp power point, I would assume you haven't used it. Return it and get the one with the 10 amp plug. If they are a customer orientated business they should be more than happy to oblige. (I was in Machinery and equipment retail in Western Australia once apon a time and I know I would have done it as customer service). Swapping out the plug is not a good idea as if the unit does drawn 15 amps it will trip your breaker/blow the fuse everytime you use it. Note: a power circuit rarely has just one thing attached so even if it doesn't draw the full 15 amps, any other items plugged into that circuit and drawing current at the same time contribute to the overall circuit load. Now.... as far as giving advise and this topic. This is the sort of advise that I see as sensible to give. It doesn't advise breaking any laws and doesn't say "call a licenced professional" hopefully it helps some.
Andrew
I rang an inspector from the Dept of Fair Trading in NSW. He says that the Housing Act does indeed affect what you do in your own home and there is no way known that an unlicensed person would be allowed to do their own wiring under any circumstances. He also mentioned the insurance ramifications. I asked about SA but he said he could not comment on another state, although he would be surprised if that was the case.Quote:
It is indeed clear cut, but it specifically relates to building a house: it means that a builder can not employ people to do electrical work if they are not licensed. Anyway, the simplest way to clarify the matter is to call the licencing board in your state, like I did, and see what they tell you. I'll bet that it is the same as in SA. The legislation does appear consistent.
I don't think we have a conclusive answer. What we would need to see is a case where someone has been fined for doing their own electricals.
I'd say "get your board upgraded to circuit breakers, then when it trips you wont need a sparky to come and fix it". :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by Wood Borer
I used to have a chart somewhere showing the ratings of paper clips through to 6" nails.
If in doubt, use a 6" nail or a bridge spike:rolleyes:
I think you will find that this is the paragraph on which it all hinges. The regulations state that all electrical work must be carried out or supervised by a licensed person, so you cannot maintain in accordance with the regulations if you do it yourself.Quote:
A responsible person for an electrical installation in a place must, to the best of the person’s ability and knowledge, ensure that such parts of the electrical installation as may be prescribed by the regulations are maintained in accordance with the regulations while the electrical installation remains connected to the source of the supply of electricity.
Here are the regulations.
So, in a nutshell, you can do the wiring yourself but it must be certified by a qualified person. So if you can get a sparky to certify your new light fittings, then you are OK. Otherwise, you can be fined.
And finally this:
Quote:
Section 14 (Unqualified electrical wiring work) of the Home Building Act 1989 makes it an offence for a person to carry out electrical wiring work unless the person is authorised to do so under that Act.
What penalties does the act stipulate for unlicensed work silent?
(I'm too lazy to actually read it :- )
Maximum penalty: 500 penalty units (in the case of a corporation) and 150 penalty units (in any other case).
Whatever that translates to....
Edit: that's for failing to maintain your installation in accordance with the regs.
Maximum penalty: 1,000 penalty units in the case of a corporation and 200 penalty units in any other case.
That's for carrying out wiring work without a license. So they could probably get you for both.
So what the H is a penalty unit? :?Quote:
Originally Posted by silentC
IN Vic criminal law it was $10.00, corporate may be different.Quote:
Originally Posted by Honorary Bloke
The current value of a penalty unit in all Commonwealth and NSW cases is $ 110 and in Victoria it is $ 100 for local government prosecutions and $ 106.43 for state prosecutions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Honorary Bloke
Peter.
These DIY high voltage wiring seminars are sooooo interesting and everyone wants input. Maybe there could be an ice cave built for the freaks - next to the one for the drivel freaks. There's such a wealth of knowledge.:D :D :D
(Need to be able to post pictures of crispy black items though:2tsup: )
I just rang the bloke explained it to him "No worries mate bring it back in and we will sort you" So Im about to head off and change it over for something else probably a TIG/ARC welder but maybe a MIG if he can convince me I need it :UQuote:
Originally Posted by sundancewfs
Mate! thats cheaper than a Sparky! U beauty! Linesman pliers for everybody! Yaaaaaaayyyy:UQuote:
Originally Posted by Sturdee
And big alligator clips.....Quote:
Originally Posted by sundancewfs
Ah but the electricity supply company will disconnect your supply until you get it certified and the re-connection fee is a killer.
So if you cop the maximum 150 penalty points it's a $15,000 fine? :oo:
Ouch!
Plus you would have to pay a sparky to come in and fix/test what you have done.
I asked that guy this morning if he knew of anyone ever being fined for it and he said that it happens all the time...
... which is what I have said since the beginning. Everybody happy now?:)Quote:
Originally Posted by silentC
ETA: Keep in mind that you are always referring to building. Once the place has been certified, any further maintenance work wich is up to standard would not void the certification, because it should be indistinguishable from the previous work. The certifying body would have the onus of proof that such further work breaches the Act, whoever has done it.
If you read back post #26, you will see that in SA the maximum penalty is $250,000.Quote:
Originally Posted by craigb
I've said it before, I'll say it now and I am sure (dag-nab-it) that I will be saying it again in the future.
"If you need to ask, then maybe you shouldn't be doing it."
That doesn't apply to all things of course, but when it comes to fixed wiring, it does.
I had a long diatribe typed in here, then I figured why bother, it's been said before already.
So, I leave you with the above. I think that's all that's really required.
Easy solution. Since New Zealand has the same wiring rules and fittings (but they allow homeowners to do some electrical work), all electrical advice is now given for the benefit of NZ'ers. Done!
Is that your attempt at ethnic cleansing?Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Splinter
It is depressing that after 4 pages waffling about legality the real point about not helping people killing themselves or others is not sinking in. (Thanks Schtoo. Commiserations, silentC).
I always thought, DIY was OK. After yesterday I understand the reason for the requirement that a sparky do the work.
Yesterday, the neighbor from across the street knocks on the door. "Your house is the same as mine. I was changing switches in the bathroom (a.k.a. WC or Dunny) and now nothing works. Would you help?"
Side note, Here in the US we have two styles of switches, normal and decor. The decor switches are the retecangular rocker switches. We also have regular, three way and four way switches. The regular has one input and one output. The three way has one input and two outputs withn one or the other always on. Without drawing it out, I forget about the four way switches.
Back to the neighbor's bathroom. I grab my meter and go to look things over. No electricity coming into the switch. My neighbor is saying that he hates doing electrical work because he knows nothing about it. :o The problem appears to be that the wire is broken inside the insulation. So I grab some black wire and wire nuts from home and go back to the neighbors. That was easy. A short length of black wire and wire nut to splice in the wire and now correctly connected to the switch after moving the other wires.
This is a circuit using three way switches as the light is turned on/off from either side of the bathroom. It's wierd, the light only works if the other switch is in a particular position. OK, this switch is correct and I close things up before looking at the other switch.
The other switch is a regular switch in a three way circuit. :o :doh:) But there are THREE wires! How could you connect three wires to two terminals? :doh: :no: :doh:) Another oddity concerning the switches here. Some switches are quick connect and have a slip in, single use terminal in addition to the normal screw terminal. My neighbor, the electrical genius, used a slip in terminal and the two screw terminals. I reinstalled the old switch to make everything work normally. Then I explained that he needed to get a three way decor switch and move one wire at at a time to the new switch.
Today, I checked with my neighbor's wife to be sure that everything was working correctly.
Mates, after yesterday I fully understand the need for regulations regarding electrical work. We need those regulations here also!
Here is a pic just for fun...... I think they do all their own electrical work.... I didn't see one grounded power point on Mexico....:)
I think some people are missing the point.
Regulations are fine - the problem we have is how you can gain recognition that you have undertaken enough training to follow and interpret the Australian/New Zealand wiring rules so that you are able to undertake particular electrical tasks.
At the moment, the only way to gain electrical qualifications is to undertake a four year apprenticeship along with TAFE training. So unless you are willing to work for 'trainee' wages for four years, there is no way you can gain the qualifications.
Sounds like an unreasonably high barrier to entry, to me.
(and if anyone says "oh, but it gives invaluable hands on experience", I'll relate the story of an ex electrical apprentice friend who gave it up after spending 7 months of his apprenticeship as the person with the job of breaking the ceramic insulation off MIMS wire for fire installations. So yes, he was very good with a hammer after all that practice.)
Master Splinter, uhh, what ceramic sheath on MIMS cable?
Just curious since I have yet to see any ceramic coating on the stuff, and I think I might have installed enough of the ^%$^%$ stuff to know.
It's painful stuff to work with, and it would be impossible if they added anything extra to deal with on it.
I can however relate to being stuck doing one thing for months/years in order to gain 'experience'. Not much short of slave labour really. For those poor sods, the 4 years is basically worthless.
But then you end up on the other end of the coin, I'll put myself up for examination since no-one else is offering.
If you take a full Clipsal catalogue, and a full Pirelli (used to be) cable catalogue, throw in a Pyrotenax catalogue and cross out maybe 5% of each catologue. What is left is what I have likely installed at one time or another. I remember telling someone from Clipsal how to install some of the gear they make. Hands on experience and all that, as worthless as it is sometimes claimed to be...
We used to do almost anything, and as a result there is very little electrical work I can't do due to lack of previous experience.
However, I have been away for over 5 years, and would not kid myself that I could step back in tomorrow. I'd take at least 6 months to get back in the groove of things.
Yes, I am a sparky.
Am I good one?
Probably, but that's not my call really.
Could some folks here do their own little electrical jobs with competence and in complete safety?
No doubt. But there would be just as many, if not more who could not do their own things without some element of risk that would be eliminated or at least reduced if a professional did the job.
I might not be particularly worried about the idea of someone with no qualifications doing electrical work, but since I know that some folks really shouldn't touch the stuff, and I have no way of identifying who should and should not, I tend to avoid saying anything.
No, I thought I cleared that up with all those links to the Electrical Safety Act and Regulations and the call to that inspector from The Dept. of Fair Trading. You are responsible for maintaining your installation according to the regulations, and the regulations state quite clearly that an unqualified person cannot do electrical work, unless under direct supervision of a qualified supervisor. The work then needs to be tested and certified by a qualified person. The only loophole is that they probably wont ever know you did it.Quote:
Once the place has been certified, any further maintenance work wich is up to standard would not void the certification, because it should be indistinguishable from the previous work.
This is the state of affairs in NSW. I find it hard to believe that SA would be any different.
One thing that has not yet been discussed is the testing and tagging of electrical tools on building sites.
As a carpenter I carried 20 or more items so being a tightass and not wanting to pay $10 per tool I did a course on in house testing.
It was the best course I have ever done as it explained the dangers very clearly and gave me a basic knowledge of electricity.
Even though the legislation say a competent person can change a plug end any thing more than that I leave to the experts.
Every three months it takes me about 2 hrs to check all my tools including a visual check for wear and tear. I also check that all safety guards are working smoothly.
I realise that this legislation does not apply to people working in their own sheds but I would strongly advise every one to get all electrical appliances checked at least once a yr for your own peace of mind as things do wear and wires can only flex so much before breaking.
Quote:
Originally Posted by silentC
In practice, we are saying the same thing with different words.Quote:
maintenance work wich is up to standard would not void the certification, because it should be indistinguishable from the previous work.
Indeed. But the essential qualification is missing: in a paid work context.Quote:
the regulations state quite clearly that an unqualified person cannot do electrical work, unless under direct supervision of a qualified supervisor This is the state of affairs in NSW. I find it hard to believe that SA would be any different.
There is always the possibility that either of us has not asked the right question or has been given the wrong answer. I'll try to formulate the issue in the tightest possible form, as I have been assured applies in SA.
- A is an unlicensed individual who knows and applies the standards required for the job.
- B is an unlicensed individual who does not.
A does the job for himself. He does not break any law.
A does the job for others. He breaches consumer protection laws.
B does the job for himself. He breaches safety laws. (Certification or $250,000 fine)
B does the job for others. He breaches consumer protection laws. His client breaches safety laws.
The person I spoke with said that unpaid work "for family and friends is a grey area". In doubt, erring on the said of caution is always a good idea.
Makes sense to me. Hope this settles it.
Sorry but no, I can't agree with that.Quote:
A does the job for himself. He does not break any law.
I haven't read the SA legislation, but the Electricity (Consumer Safety) Act and Regulations of NSW, which apply to an existing Electrical Installation - ie. a house which has been built and is now being lived in by someone, state quite clearly that:
(there are exclusions but none that affect this argument)Quote:
electrical installation means any fixed appliances, wires, fittings, apparatus or other electrical equipment used for (or for purposes incidental to) the conveyance, control and use of electricity in a particular place
Quote:
electrical wiring work means the actual physical work of installing, repairing, altering, removing or adding to an electrical installation or the supervising of that work.
Quote:
A responsible person for an electrical installation in a place must, to the best of the person’s ability and knowledge, ensure that such parts of the electrical installation as may be prescribed by the regulations are maintained in accordance with the regulations while the electrical installation remains connected to the source of the supply of electricity.
Quote:
Section 14 (Unqualified electrical wiring work) of the Home Building Act 1989 makes it an offence for a person to carry out electrical wiring work unless the person is authorised to do so under that Act.
The requirement to have any electrical wiring work done by a qualified person (or under the direct supervision of a qualified supervisor) extends to an existing electrical installation, ie. your house. It is black and white in this state. There are no grey areas here. It does not cover only paid work, that phrase is not mentioned. There are regulations about who can contract for electrical work but that is covered elsewhere.Quote:
An individual must not do any electrical wiring work (whether or not it is also residential building work), except:
(a) as a qualified supervisor (being the holder of an endorsed contractor licence, or a supervisor certificate, authorising its holder to do that work), or
(b) as the holder of a tradesperson certificate authorising its holder to do that work under supervision, but only if the work is done under the supervision and in accordance with the directions, if any, of such a qualified supervisor.
I can't speak for the situation in SA.
If you still don't believe me, then there's no more I can do to convince you, so I wish you well with your future electrical activities.
Your'e wasting your breath Silent.Quote:
Originally Posted by silentC
It has been pointed out many times but he just cant grasp that it is illegal.
Ok, I'll get it in writing. If my interpretation of the law has been incorrectly confirmed by the Office of Consumer and Business Affairs, which administers the licencing of electricians in SA, I will publicly apologise on their and my behalf. I trust that all those of you who think that I "just cant grasp that it is illegal" will extend to me the same courtesy if I am again proven correct.
silentC: when an Act refers to regulations, they are the regulations pertaining to that Act, not other Acts (eg the Building Act in this case). As I see it, and I could be wrong not having read both Acts in detail, you keep mixing their purposes and making a wrong inference from one to the other. Either that, or b) the law is actually different in NSW, or c) I am wrong about SA, as above. Once I have sorted it out this side of the border, if c) is excluded you might wish to satisfy yourself about whether it is a) or b).