LOL ..Thanks...I must admit I don't mind a good argument when you feel passionate about the subject
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LOL ..Thanks...I must admit I don't mind a good argument when you feel passionate about the subject
Due to various PM's from both sides of the fence, often with the blind fury associated with neo-religious cult leaders and politicians, i will post one last time on this topic.
Pawny now has a flashing method, and a referance material to go with it, I have also learned a new technique and its intended applications. Both methods will work, but as with everything need to be applied in the right situation for the right application. We have agreed on this in PM.
We both have gained knowledge which we can apply where we see fit.
Eg. if your existing wall leaks very badly IMO the saw cut method is not the way to go. If you use the brick removal method IMO it would be because the structural dangers of a badly leaking wall far out weigh the dangers of removing / replacing bricks.
I will not be using the removal method, in my opinion it should be done by a builder who specialises in this type of work. I would refer customers to one of these builders should I think it was nessecary. Pawny used this method under instruction of a builder, who then guaranteed the wall, theres nothing wrong with that.
The PDF's are good, best ive seen anywhere, use them. IMO if you cant interpret or still have questions about basic roof flashing after reading those pages, call a roofer.:2tsup:
I do appologize again for my posts during this thread, i have learned alot from your answers, I now understand the forum equivilent of being civilised and corteous to all involved. I also realise the need to be precise in my statements as perhaps mis-interpretation is easier to do when reading a post than in face to face disscussion. I thought by using capitols it would highlight my main points, did'nt realise that was shouting and abusive.
Bricksie,
it's not always easy to "back down" but, in the end people respect you far more for it. Welcome to the forums mate!:D
Mick
Yes, I'd like to welcome you to these forums also bricksy and I hope that we can be friends, however I still believe that you have a problem addressing the issue.
I believe that you prefer to avoid the question.This statement is a lie.Quote:
Originally Posted by bricks
Gees talk about being passionate about flashing. :oQuote:
Originally Posted by pawnhead
Pawnhead, Ive been in the bricklaying trade for 36 odd years and have never seen flashing done as per you picture. No chippie that I know puts flashing under the bottom plate and the flashing in the brickwork is 1 course too low, when the garden or path is put against house it would breach the flashing.
Wall ties havent bean done that fashion in Vic for at least 25 years since the introduction of sisalation.
Al :2tsup:
Okay, got this from the Australian Domestic Construction Manual, which was written by Standards Australia and Master Builders Construction and Housing Association Australia Inc, in conjunction with major manufacturers of building materials, the Timber Research and Development Advisory Council and several statutory bodies.
Text accompanying the stepped flashing diagrams:
"Cavity gutter detail
A critical area of cavity flashings occurs where exterior brickwork becomes internal below a sloping roof. Proper stepped damp-proof course from brickwork on to the adjacent roof level must be provided in conjunction with a cavity gutter, or alternatively a stepped flashing (laid across the cavity) can be used. One way of creating such a gutter is shown in Figure D7.2 - G."
My emphasis and italics. Note that there's no proviso for not providing such a flashing with associated cavity gutter or stepped flashing for renovations or additions. Manufacturers may give other methods for retrofitting a flashing in such a case, but when the wall leaks and the client sues you you'll need to sue the manufacturer that gave you the advice.
The manufacturer will most likely have deeper pockets than you.
If it's not in the ADCM or the BCA then you use the method at your own risk. Follow all the rules and you and your license are covered. If you cut 60% of the way into a brick wall and sometime down the track it collapses, killing or maiming someone then you'll be getting sued. It will then be up to you to countersue the engineer or manufacturer who gave you that advice. I've even read advice in the Master Builder's magazine that in such cases your estate could even be sued by the injured parties after your death.
The diagram labelled DPC shows the DPC running from under the bottom plate and down the step in the slab to finish under the lower course of bricks.
"Damp proof coursing must be installed as follows-
The full width of the wall
If near ground level, between 150mm and 200mm from the finished ground level."
If the DPC must be installed the full width of the wall it must be installed under the bottom plate as that is part of the wall. If stepping down one brick from the bottom plate sees the DPC being closer than 150mm from finished ground level then the builder has not had the slab formed high enough.
WRT to the brick ties:
"The following precautions should be taken during construction:
...............Bridging may occur at the bottom of the cavity, brick ties and at window flashing..........."
Nowhere is it specified that ties should be fixed at an angle in order to shed water and prevent bridging, but if it was my job I'd be making sure they were, as I wouldn't want any warranty call backs to fix damp spots in plasterboard.
Mick
No one does it like that either Mick. :doh:
Ill try to draw something up, or maybe I can get it from the Brickwork Standards I have here.
This is fun.
Al :U
Edit: The brickwork standards dont have any pics of flashing, you have to buy the flashing standards..:roll::~
The drama, the suspense ....its killing me!
This thread has more twists and turns than a John Grisham novel!
BTW Bricks if you are going to post links that are relevant to any point, could you link to the appropriate page so everyone doesn't have to wade through a tech manual.
I skimmed through every one of those links (except 2 that wouldn't open and I can't see the relevance to your argument. I may have missed it but do you expect people to read 600 pages to prove your point?
This works for me. If you need more detail then download it from here.
Greg the pics too small and it doesnt include all the flashings.
Al :)
did you try clicking on here <- to download it? If it seems small after downloading, click on it, that should zoom in (on IE anyway). If there is a particular flashing you want shown, let me know and I;ll see if I have it in the book.Quote:
Originally Posted by ozwinner
Ok so I clicked HERE this time, the pic was bigger, but there is a few flashings missing.
Missing.
The flashing that seals off a roof from the adjoining brickwork.
This is the one that Bricks was one about, I think.
I think the boys were on about different flashings myself and got all heated up about different things, both were right in their own respect.
The cavity flashing above a room or void is missing.
This is the one that Pawnhead was one about, I think.
One flashing on the picture that isnt used anymore is the sill flashing.
Unless it rains, all flashings are redundant anyway..:U
Al :)
How about this? Click here for the big picture.
Ok so you now have the roof to building flashing.
What about the cavity flashing over openings.
Hijacked by mods, whod a thunk it? :doh:
Al :)
I reckon you're just after a complete copy of the book Al :rolleyes: .Quote:
Originally Posted by ozwinner
Windows (no doors): click here for the large size.
Dont worry, I have the book in my head anyway. :UQuote:
Originally Posted by Groggy
This is what I think Pawnhead was on about, cavity flashing.
PS, whats the book?
Al :)
Bricklaying for Dummies :DQuote:
Originally Posted by ozwinner
Staines, Allen. House Building Manual: Step by step Guide to House Building 4th Ed. ISBN 1-875217-18-5 purchased from Bunnings
Ive got the decks and pergolas book..Quote:
Originally Posted by Groggy
Im going to call mine Uncle Al's Bricklaying guide. (Im not really :q)
Maybe something Bricklaying.....:U
Al :D
:wtf1: :meg: An abutment flashing !!.
Sounds painful..:CQuote:
Originally Posted by ausdesign
I hope you get over it soon..
Al :q
Nah, they're both talking about the same thing: flashing a new single storey roof to an existing two storey wall - abutment flashing as Peter puts it. That was the original question - how to do it. The rest of the stuff just came into the debate as a way of illustrating that bricks leak!Quote:
I think the boys were on about different flashings myself and got all heated up about different things, both were right in their own respect.
This tread is leaving me with the same feeling as I get post coitus interruptus....slightly unsatified.
We still haven't resolved the issue -
IE What is the correct way to retro fit flashing to a brick wall abutment.
1. Chase cut or
2. Stepped brick removal?
I reckon that both are compromises in an imperfect situation. They both mess with the integrity of the existing wall. Whether one or the other is the accepted practice probably doesn't mean much from that point of view. A lot of "accepted practices" look dodgy upon closer inspection...
The BCA 2006 prohibits the use of lead flashings for any roof collecting potable water.
Maybe that narrows the debate. Then again . . . .
And just to clarify the debate - this is where the flashing is preventing water getting inside not for example where a carport or the like butts against an external wall.
For the latter I would be detailing a sloped, cut in [30mm] flashing with a 'soaker' tray for a tiled roof & an over flashing on a metal roof.
I really do have an aversion to the look of a stepped flashing [in case no ones noticed]
Peter,
if you spec a saw cut flashing how can you guarantee that water wont soak the brickwork above the cut and be drawn down behind the cut via gravity thus wetting the interior wall below the roof? And if there's a power point in this wall and someone with a dodgy heart gets killed will you be partly liable? It's not very likely but it's not entirely impossible.
Mick
'morning Mick.
A couple of points. Any moisture that penetrates the outer skin will run down the inner face of the brick. If any moisture gets across to the inner skin it will be a result of bad workmanship such as mortar breaching the cavity. Any moisture getting to a power point on the internal skin will be from bad workmanship not from a flashing break down.
Compare it to a situation where the wall is a normal exposed to the weather external wall - same electrical hazards.
With the flashing,whether its chased in or cut in, the same installation principles apply - the recess should be part filled with a sealing medium such as sikaflex. The 'overflashing' should have an upward fold back and be pushed into the sealant, not fitted into the slot and then sealed.
There should be at least a 75mm upstand on the apron flashing & a 50mm cover by the overflashing.
I would hazard a guess that a sloped flashing would perform better than a stepped flashing - less joins etc but I don't have anything to back that up.
With a large area of face brickwork, such as with a second storey, above the abutment I would normally run a cavity flashing with weep holes same as you would at g/l with a slab but then again I'm not building now just drawing lines on paper !
Peter,
the situation to which I'm refering has a previous outside wall becoming an interior wall. Ie: 2 story house, single story addition is tacked onto the outside brickwork. Water which runs down the inside of the exterior brickwork is now running down an inside of an interior wall when it gets down to the lower floor. Of course an ELCB should protect the occupants but it's not a good situation.
Mick
In a situation like that Mick there should be a cavity tray/flashing inserted, it can be stepped inside the cavity.Quote:
Originally Posted by journeyman Mick
______
______........______
______ ........................______
Like so, you just have to have a bit of overlap on each flashing. ( I had to insert the dots as they kept closing up when saved)
It takes a fair bit of effort to archive, but would be well worth it.
Al :2tsup:
Al,
so where does the tray drain to? I'm assuming the high point is in the middle of the wall just under the flashing on the outside and then each succesive piece steps down. How do you insert it? :?
Mick
Quote:
Originally Posted by journeyman Mick
I theory it drains out of the weep holes. :roll:
To insert it you would have to take bricks out and replace them. :doh:
Al :U
Al,
the weep holes are now on an inside wall, not good! Must be another way around it.
Mick
Ahhr, I assumed you butted a gable roof against the brickwork, hence the stepped flashing. :doh: Then the weep holes would be above the roof.Quote:
Originally Posted by journeyman Mick
Al :U
Al,
still trying to understand this.
Even if it's a gable roof with a stepped flashing that's been inserted in a saw cut in the mortar or brickwork I can't see how you can stop any water that's hitting the wall above this point from soaking into the bricks and travelling down the wall, causing moisture problems on the interior section of the wall below this point.
The only way around this that I can see is what John (Pawnhead) has advocated and that's to retrofit a flashing by removing bricks. Now I know that bricks nowadays are higher fired than they used to be and don't absorb as much water but I wouldn't want to lay my license on the line by doing it any other way. Truth be known, I probably wouldn't want to take the job on anyway:D. But I've yet to see anyone coming up with a retrofit flashing for a brickwall that will guarantee a dry wall below it besides removing bricks like John suggests. Well that, or overflash the entire wall from the soffit down to the saw cut flashing which might be just a tad ugly.:roll:
Mick
Quote:
Originally Posted by journeyman Mick
Thats what Im saying Mick.
Take out bricks, insert flashing into the cavity, thats why its called cavity flashing. :roll:
Replace bricks..:q
Al :D
Quote:
Originally Posted by journeyman Mick
Yeah right, some bricks are fired almost to a glaze, but the still absorb heaps of water, some absorb so much that they almost float when they are wet.
We had some last winter and they got so wet that they wouldnt dry out for us to lay them, even after covering them for a week to stop the rain getting to them they were still bloody awful to lay.
Al :doh:
Al,
oh, okay we're reading from the same page then. Just waiting on Peter or Bricks to show how a saw cut inserted flashing can be installed so as to result in a totally dry wall.:;
Mick
I didnt think that flashing was so interesting, but look at all these people who are reading this thread...:o
Al :U
Mate, I've always been interested in flashing :D
I dont know how the wall stays dry fellas, i really don't. It's just the way I was taught.
Just wondering if anyone has had time to look at the pages I posted before, if so what do you think about them?
If anyones wondering, im not argueing about it anymore because i dont like it and because i got spanked by the mod, It hurt, I have sensitive skin:C.
But mick I cant tell you coz i dont know. :doh:
Silent pretty much summed it up for me in post #63
Haven't had time to look at those pages Bricksie, but stay tuned to this space for breaking news on that issue. I won't steal anyone's thunder, just wait and see.:wink:
Mick