Al it sounds like the start to the 4 Yorkshiremen.Quote:
Originally Posted by ozwinner
Handshake....luxury, all we got is smack around head with broken bottle.:D
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Al it sounds like the start to the 4 Yorkshiremen.Quote:
Originally Posted by ozwinner
Handshake....luxury, all we got is smack around head with broken bottle.:D
What about childhood abuse from females? Doesn't happen? Yet females (generally) are not treated with suspicion around children. Why not? According to your logic they should be (judged because you are a stranger). What about the female stranger seated next to the unaccompanied child on the Qanta flight? Has the airline checked if she is a known child molester? I think not. And if they did they would suffer the venom of every "wimmins" group in the country. Get real!Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleedin Thumb
Yes Eddie, you have a point, in some cases things have become stupid aka the Quantas thing.
I think that woman are more relaxed about other women near their kids ( and I am guessing because I would have the foggiest how women think!):confused: because :-
1. Abuse by females is either less reported or is less common, I don't know which?
2. Some sort of wierd maternal bond with other women once they have had a child. Sounds weird but I bet there is something in it.
3. Women are naturally less uptight around other women than they are around men.
Men on the other hand are uncomfortable around other men and around women unless we have got to know them.:rolleyes: Probably why some of us can discuss personal feeling via the faceless BB.
That would be because between 85% to 95% of all abuse is perpertrated by males. Doesn't take much research on the net to figure that out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddie Jones
None of the nuns in the Catholic Church around Chicago were found guilty of sexual abuse charges emanating from that infamous enclave.
Ask yourself this. Who would you rather have look after your 10 yo child on a school camp. A male monsignor or a female teachers aide?
Namtrak, with all due respect, I think you need to review some of your questions.
For one I don't feel safe walking streets at night or even getting public transport. How many men have been beaten or killed for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
I was in Sydney earlier this year walking back to the casino from darling harbour with my wife and got harassed by a group of young men, they even threw stuff at us. And you tell me I am safe !!
Whilst we are better off than many, it does not justify the ill treatment we do get.
Just because a small minority perpertrate horendous crimes doesn't mean we are all the same. To label every male an abuser because some small section do is wrong. Thats the same as labelling all muslims terrorists just because a minority are. Is that wrong. YES
Like labelling all judges as crooks because one happens to be one. Is that wrong. YES.
Like labelling all pollies as ...... oh that doesn't work;):D
Whats next, just because my neighbour got caught speeding I'm not allowed to drive, or the guy at the pub got drunk and beat his wife you are a wife beater ?
Clearly not.
I believe what people are really saying here is that yes, be careful, be vigilent, protect those that are vulnerable BUT that does not mean create a new section in society to blame, pick on, accuse, suspect, denegrate, harass or just plain victimise.
This is what many men are feeling, that we are becoming just that. A group in society that it is acceptable to pick on because they don't have a voice.
Take a look in the US, the new acceptable group to pick on are the "trailer trash" it's ok why because they don't have a voice like the others. Once they get a voice, it will shift to another group.
What is needed is a voice, a voice for everyone, a place that everyone can feel safe, loved and respected.
Yes we are lucky but that doesn't mean theres nothing wrong, but until men stand up and say something it's only going to get worse and what will that be like for our kids and grandkids.
Hi Meerkat,Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat
What are we supposed to say.. Stop showing anti rape and abuse ads on TV that are aimed at males because I am a male and I dont do those things?
Those ads are unpalatable but I don't let them offend me as I'm not the one they're aimed at and I can't see why blokes get so defensive over them.:confused:
There are plenty of guys out there that need to take head of those ads like the ####'s that abused you.:mad:
An important way to stop this #### is public education because a lot of young blocks don't have the parental role models that we had (as poor as that was). Think of that #### of a father of the boys charged with gang rape in Sydney last year defending their behavour saying the girl desirved it.
I agree that what we need is a place that is safe loving etc etc, but is that going to happen, can't see it myself.
Society is going to hell on a fast train IMHO and all we can do is to protect ourselves and our families as best we can and try to instill in your kids a code of behaviour that shows respect to all humans, saves the whales, protects the enviroment and saves lots of money to support you in your old age:D
Meerkat, you make some very valid points. And I guess I should quantify stuff to say that is how I feel, not how all men should feel.
And I also can empathise with Studley and being frustrated to the point of aggression, however what is differentiating us from those that give us a bad name is that when the rubber hits the road we are able to restrain ourselves.
Your saying that men don't have a voice, and I guess my point (or my belief) is that since we first got here 200 years ago. White middle aged men have always been THE sole voice, and it is only in the last 30 years that disparate or disadvantaged groups have started to ask for their wheels to be oiled. I think it is a paradigm shift that we (men) are going to have to adjust to in whatever way we can. Either accept the changes or create our own voice.
Namtrak, I don't think anyone here is suggesting that we supress anyones voice and I know you are certainly not suggesting that we should.
But this concept that if anyones voice should not be heard is the males because we've been the "sole" voice for years is just not acceptable and should not be an excuse for allowing abuse or injustices towards men. (I know that is not you are suggesting either)
I also totally agree that we (as men) need to speak up, rather than sit back and take it like a man. This thread should be seen as an example of the concerns that are out there.
I agree with that and would also add that we are coping this flack because we probably deserve it. Not as individuals but as a group. We as a group has been responsible for or known of and done nothing about a lot of things that would never been allowed if everyone in society had equal voices over the last what 50, 100 or more years.Quote:
Originally Posted by namtrak
Society changes us dinosaurs just have to get used to it.
I agree bleedin thumb.
The only reason I think we get "offended" by them is not that we are offended as such, we are just tired of the constant onslaught the media put out that eventually seeps into the subconcious that leads to more problems.
Education is the right way but who is willing to educate ? The governments ?
Geez kids have trouble spelling, reading, writing with maths etc, why would they do anything else if they cant get the basics working ?
Sorry I digressed :o
I think that is a problem with any educational or political campaign. If the subject matter is simply rammed down peoples throats it runs the risk of alienating a lot of people. Look at those grose quit smoking ads.People still are but gradually less and less.Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat
But how do you tackle a problem that is so ingrained in society without some shock tactics?
I know a few people who were abused as children (male and female) and if some of us have to get our noses out of joint to stop other kids from going through what they have been through, then so be it. This problem is so common it would horrify most people if they knew the full extent of it.
It's only through this sort of publicity that anything has gotten done. You only have to look at the changes that have taken place in the XXXX church (self censored). Ten years ago if you got married to a woman you'd be kicked out of the church but if you abused (raped) fifty kids you would receive a good talking to and then moved to fresh ground.
I'm afraid you are going to have to take it on the chin for now because things are going to get worse before they get better.
To me, the issue here is, how do we weed out the pedophiles, rapists, wife bashers, and so on, without this thinly veiled blanket accusation that all males are barley restrained potential criminals?
It may come as a surprise to some excited protectors of all of the targets of male aggression that we don't all walk around with a view of children as sexual beings, or with a view of scantily clad women as "asking for it", or that we all think that it's OK to physically dominate women in some way.
In fact, if you could slip into OUR minds for a moment, you might find that these things horrify us as much as they do you, maybe more.
I wonder if men would do themselves a favour by having a lash at the various criminals who abuse children?
Good men saying that animal not only harms an innocent child he harms upstanding and innocent men too and deserves the full force of the law. It might do something to highlight that most men are perfectly decent people
Studley (remembering my stepmonster and after what she did there is no pitt in hell deep enough for her)
Adrian abuse in the "religious" environment is still going on, with recent changes ie police checks will help there but until people are educated and come forward with the support of the community etc this will not get "cleaned up". Maybe if the victims were treated more seriously rather than being the "instigators" things would get done.
As far as taking it on the chin... Well I see that a little different, say that to the muslim community and you will be given a serving. Say it to our indiginous people and they too will give you a serve, why because they are willing to stand up and say yes there are problems but don't imply we are all the problem.
So we don't speak up and what are we leaving our sons ? What are we telling them ? Everyone else has a voice, everyone else gets "protected", everyone else is valued but you my boy just take it like a man and live with it.
Just because the pendulum has swung too far the other way doesnt mean its right, we (as a society) need force it to the centre where everyone IS treated equally.
Don't get me wrong Adrian I'm not giving you a serve (although I suppose it does sound like it :o) I do understand what you are trying to say.
I also agree with Studley, we need to stand up and be seen to be against these people. Only one problem, there is no voice. There is no-one that gets on the media and speaks up to say we are not all abusers etc until then the only way the media etc do it is to paint everyone the same.
That means everyone should be painted as abusers coz they are everywhere.
Maybe the media should be more balanced with their reporting, maybe that would go to help the situation, maybe theres a shock ad for you to see a woman beating her husband, verbally abusing him, causing him mental anguish, telling people that whilst they are in the very slim minority there are women too that pray on children.
Sorry I just read this.:o Oh and this is not directed at you bleedingthumb, its the topic I'm responding to.:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleedin Thumb
I'd like to say, with all due respect BS.:p but can't, :D but would also like to say, this is how the government, the media and the special interest groups want us to think like.
uh oh I really sound like a rebel:o
Go around cap in hand apologising for all the bad deeds in the world. Well sorry for being a white male, but I will not be sorry for something I didn't do, I will not be held responsible for things I had no way of knowing about or doing etc.
Are women (as a group) sorry because men were sent white feathers because the women thought they should be going to war to die ?
Should governments and other groups be sorry and apologise for sending young men and women to war ? Should they apologise for the crap treatment these same people got when they returned ?
Every part of society could find something that other parts of society should be sorry for and hold that against them, but we don't.
We know there is a problem, we want to be part of the solution but don't blame us as a whole because this gets noone nowhere.
Sure society is changing, sure many people with voices now should have had louder ones in the past BUT are you telling me that a woman seeing/knowing of injustices couldn't say anything in the past.
For many many years women have influenced the outcome of things, they have been able to bring things to light, they too (as a group) are responsible for many of these injustances. The real issue here is a few things one of which is that in some cases, their voices were often muffled by not only men but other women, just as we take it like men theirs was don't rock the boat, don't upset the family etc.
How many times did mothers "take one for the team" and not say a thing to keep harmony in the house. Was it the right thing maybe, maybe not but their intent for the most part was true and good.
Sorry for my full on comments, maybe it's the lack of caffiene :D
Well for Iraq and Vietnam possibly but even those two can be justified.Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat
Should John Howard apologise to aboriginal Australians for the genicide that was perpetrated on them by previous Governments and the countries white inhabitants.?
I beleive yes. But Little Johnny obviously doesnt agree and I assume others here don't too.
I don't think and am not trying to say we walk around with our caps in hand.
We have to bring these issues out in the open- hence the offensive adds discuss the issues and resolve the problems. If our little male egos get a bit bruised well thats tuff.
I'd rather see those adds which maybe are saving a lot of missery, than living in a society where I knew my neighbours or family members were being abused and no one was saying a word ...hey that was only 10 years ago.
Once again I can't understand why these ads are offending you guys you should get thicker skins and stop being paranoid about what other people (women) think of you.
Briiiiiing briiiiiiing, briiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiing briiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiing,
Mr Psychologist, got some work for your at www.woodworkforums.com.au.......
"Ill be right over" :)
It's always going to go on but the thing that has changed is the way we deal with it. I remember being told by a teacher in a Sydney inner city primary school that one of the male teachers had been transfered to another school because he was molesting kids. Thankfully that method of dealing with the crime just doesn't happen any more.Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat
I was told a few years ago by my parents that when we were staying at my aunts place my 8 year old cousin came in and put himself to bed in the middle of the day. Sorry to be so graphic but he was bleeding from the anus and it was obvious that he had been raped. That in itself is a terrible event but what made it infinitely worse was that no-one, including my parents, did anything about it because they were convinced that his father did it. This was in the late fifties and that's the way this sort of thing was swept under the carpet.
I know how everyone feels about the way we men are treated these days and I know only too well what it has done to the way we interact with kids. When my daughter was little it was a ritual that when she came out of the bath she would get some serious rasberries blown on her belly. It was something that would have both of us in fits. My three year old grandaughter is still innocent enough to have the same reaction that her mother did. The five year old is another matter entirely. She goes to school in New York and one of the first things they teach kids is the to be wary of the attentions of men. Needless to say, she doesn't get the rasberry treatment.
That innocence we had when we were kids is gone from kids these days but if that means that they don't experience what my friends and cousin went through it's got to be a good thing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dazzler
Don't go through the forum, Dazzler, give him your number.
Adrian, nobody here is condoning the abusers behaviour, it is sick and abhorent. I know someone that knows of an abuser, the victim told them what happened.
That person went and spoke to legal people etc and was told that the victim had to bring it out not them. Tough cross to bear. Guess what the "alleged" abuser was a close family member.
I'm not suggesting we stop this campaign to make people aware, what I am suggesting is that there needs to be balance.
Heres another view, I agree to some extent that it's better not to get raspberries and not get the other. But what are children losing in the meantime, quality time with their parents ? What effect will that have on them and society later on?
What will happen when a little girl grows up and meets a good man (there are a few of us around:)) and does want to give her raspberries and then she starts to not trust him, oops more divorces, more suicides because innocent men are labelled abusers.
See the issue is not whether we should/should not protect others, thats a no brainer, the issue is that we don't throw the baby out with the bath water.
Educate, explain why, show kids how to be careful with others, support the victims, punish the abusers.
Educate not discriminate.
Bleedinthumb, are you saying the vets deserved to be spat on ? Ostricised ? Unsupported ? IMO I don't believe you are.
But for those that do, take it up with your member of parliament don't take it out on the vets.
Oh wait it was the government that sent men and women to war, oh wait that same member most probably doesn't really appreciate the sacrifice those people made.
Like many people, I certainly have nothing to apologise for, I had nothing to do with it so why should an elected official representing me apologise for me on my behalf ? Does it hurt to do it, sorry is just a word, will that really make up for the hurt, no. What will is action, recognition, support etc.
I think we are basically on the same wavelength, maybe we are looking at it from different angles.
I think this thread has derailed itself from the original issue so maybe I should just shut up:D
Namtrak,Quote:
Originally Posted by namtrak
You're right, it doesn't take much research.
Try http://mdsasupport.homestead.com/files/fpsa.html That was the first hit on my Google search. They reckon 25% of perpetrators are women. I'm willing to bet that other sites would say even higher. So just where do you get your figure of 15%? Just pluck 'em out of the air like so many on this forum?
Eddie
he said: "please stop calling or I will take out a restraining order..."Quote:
Originally Posted by Rossluck
:confused:
Geez Eddie, talking about an eye opener, while I haven't read it all it's certainly surprised me and 25% is female/female according to this site. What % is female/male ?
"Finally, and most importantly, female-female abuse is a topic which needs to be researched and spoken about, so that survivors can receive the support, information and validation that they deserve, and little girls who are brave enough to tell, may one day be believed."
Maybe the media could run an article or something about this too.
Sorry I forgot I was gonna keep quite :o:D
roflQuote:
Originally Posted by dazzler
Mother of 3 boys & 1 girl........from and abusive backgroud.....so I am extremely aware.....over protective but not overbaring.....you have to teach your children to be aware .... to even be suspicious....it keeps them vigilant...but not to taint their lives it is very hard...
My late husband was so supportive & understanding we discussed these type of matters all the time...to us 99% of males around us are great wonderful supportive sensitive & friendly...........It's that tiny 1% that we have to be aware of....don't those barstards just spoil it for the rest.......
But how do we react to abuse when you see it with out getting your self into a situation you cant controll..........
It happens every day......go to a shopping centre & see mothers yelling or hitting their children........the low social economic enviroment breeds this....even nutures it...its terrible...you know that some of these mothers should just not have kids....how do we deal with it...do we walk up and say something, not likely you would end up flat on you face....but who is going to speak out for the children.........we need a police force that is out there among the population...police on the beet...or at least around society...not in there cars picking up someone for going 5klm over the limit....put them where they are needed....
Protecting our children starts with the mothers...........can't blame all men...sorry........but where do we stop it....I have taught my sons to respect women, defend & potect them from any & all voilence...No matter who....BUT above all the respect & protection of children is a must....
regard Kekemo
Will someone please restrain me !!!:D:D
Kekemo, thank you for your response, what you have said in such a small space is wonderful
Thank you.
Hi kekomo
what you say is dead right. dont agree with the policing issue though as imo that is after the fact and would need a cop in every home.
This is my exp in law enforcement. I have used guesstimates based on what I have seen/monitored specific to child/wife abuse in all forms;
The bad man looking for kids to abuse in the community .5%
Father/grandfather/uncle 70%
Trusted family friend 20%
Sibling with mental disorder 9%
Rapist stalking the community .5%
As I say very rough guesstimates but based on reported crimes that I see on the system everyday in my current role.
Sadly the home is THE most dangerous place for a child and sadly a wife. In 20 years of policing I have only seen 1 case where a women was beating up on a bloke and she was more bloke than a bloke anyway.
I have no problems with the Govt slamming us with these ad's and if it makes some of us uncomfortable, and we have nothing to hide, then forget it and move on.
I have a pretty hard view on child molesters and that is that they need to be removed from society so that the ongoing trauma is stopped for good. Most abusers have been abused themselves and so the sad cycle continues. There needs to be a place, an island perhaps, where they can live out thier lives in relative comfort, not talking about punishment, so that it ends.
cheers
dazzler