Tablesaw Feeding

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by rrich

Adam,

The instructor, in his late thirties, has been woodworking since the age of 9. He was most adamant about using his technique in school. Since using his technique, I tend to agree with his methods and rules.

No helpers! Do NOT allow any one to help you on the out feed side of the table saw. Usually the helper will cause the stock to pinch the blade. The the saw will throw the stock back into the face of the operator. a.k.a. A Kick Back.

---

Rich, the advice you have given especialy where and how you your hands are working the timber is spot on with the way i do it. the only difference is my red zone is heaps less, but thats my choice.

Like silent i dont agree with you about out-feed help. Here in Aus its part of a cabies apprentiship duties to tail out and he learns how to do it safely.

And with your instructor, im not familiar with the way its done in the states but here its taught purley in a occupational health n safty way, public liability is more important than commonsence. So when i read it or hear or see an instructor teaching it the "propper" way, at times i cringe:rolleyes:

Respect a spinning blade, commonsence, watch where your fingers are, and have no fear and youl keep all your fingers for holding your next beer;)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by redwood

Like silent i dont agree with you about out-feed help. Here in Aus its part of a cabies apprentiship duties to tail out and he learns how to do it safely.

---

I have to agree with this.

In situations where I need out-feed assistance and the only help at hand is unskilled, I'll often clamp a long stud to the fence, overhanging the out-feed side and tell 'em to "keep it held firm against that."

Of course, it's always best to try to avoid such situations, but... [shrug]

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Skew ChiDAMN!!

I have to agree with this.

In situations where I need out-feed assistance and the only help at hand is unskilled, I'll often clamp a long stud to the fence, overhanging the out-feed side and tell 'em to "keep it held firm against that."

Of course, it's always best to try to avoid such situations, but... [shrug]

---

Skew, nothing better than having someone who knows how to do it tail out. makes life so easy. i just tell em NOT to pull, just let it rest in their hand gently taking the weight, and if needed lightly prompt the board to the fence side

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by redwood

Skew, nothing better than having someone who knows how to do it tail out. makes life so easy. i just tell em NOT to pull, just let it rest in their hand gently taking the weight, and if needed lightly prompt the board to the fence side

---

Damned right! :D Unfortunately, although I try to plan all major cuts in my shed there's always the odd occasion where I have to cut large panels on-site. Usually, only the brickie's labourer or framer's gophers are free to help and for some reason "don't pull" goes in one ear and out the next as often as not.

At home it's a different story. They've all learnt when to hide. ;)

Good thread guys,
Well worth discussing things like this. I tend to have a comfort space far smaller than 100mm, but always ALERT and aware. I use one push stick, find 2 very dicey to actually control things. The biggest problems I've come across in 20 odd yrs of using a table saw is the timber itself: observe the characteristics of EACH stick! Know which way a bow or warp should be fed, if you have to. Test a piece to know if it is case-hardened and will bite...half a blade cut and pull it back to see if the cut closes (more later). Make sure there are no lumps and bumps that will bear against the fence, thereby jamming it onto the blade. I'm right handed, so stand slightly to the left of the stick, feeding with my right hand and guiding against the fence with my left. Unfortunately the saw I use at work has the switch on the far right:eek:
I have one practice that I know upsets people, and experienced people too...I often withdraw wood from the saw before completing a cut. I assume the response is about the timber grabbing and therefore kicking back...but in my experience when done under complete, firm, control there is no risk. The only risk is a burnt cut, but I'm not going to recommend the practice. Why do I do this? I reckon that the last part of a feed, when the end of the timber passes the blade is the worst time for accidents. Sometimes the whole thing tips or jams against the outfeed stand; sometimes it wants to move sideways; you are at the end of extension with hand/pushstick; the guard is in the bl**dy way...basically I lack the control I want unless I have someone tailing out (much preferred practice). So when ripping I cut a portion, withdraw the timber, flip it over and continue cutting untill the first cut is met and I withdraw it, without getting to that end point. I know its against all instructions and warnings, so I'm not recommending it, but my only beef is the cuts aren't perfect. I can put up with that, planing or sanding to fix it... anyone else do similar?:o

Cheers,

A sharp blade and a piece of flat timber with straight edge will help preventing kickback too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Andy Mac

Good thread guys,

the guard is in the bl**dy way

Cheers,

---

Simple way to stop the guard getting in the way.... throw it in the bin.



As far as im concerned they are one of the biggest dangers in a workshop.


How many accidents have their been with even experienced users trying to manouver pushsticks around and behind a guard to "safley" rip timber:eek:



.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by redwood

Simple way to stop the guard getting in the way.... throw it in the bin.

---

...and then you get a big job that's primarily cutting panels and go scrabbling around in bins, wondering "now where the hell did I leave that?"

Been there, done that. :o

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by redwood

Simple way to stop the guard getting in the way.... throw it in the bin.
.

---

Thats the kind of comment I find a bit irresponsible. If thats your practice, fine, dont recommend it to everyone else.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LineLefty

Thats the kind of comment I find a bit irresponsible. If thats your practice, fine, dont recommend it to everyone else.

---

Lefty i think youl find i made my own disclamer above saying what i do is MY WAY and i dont recomend it to novices. but i still think im entitled to let people know how i do it my way, even if every one thinks its wrong, just as you are entitled to tell me how you do it even if i might think its wrong. as i said before saftey these days is occ health driven mainly for liability purposes and they still havnt looked up the word commonsence in the dictionary.

I would like someone to explain exactly why a guard is safe? An overhead that rises from the top is the ONLY safe guarde and what is included on 90% of the saws that would belong to members here would NOT meet saftey standards in a commercial shop, that is fact.

Their is no disputing that the guard on a saw is responsible for more chopped of fingers than a saw that has had it disguarded. How many pics in mags and books from all over the world do you see with the guardes off? (oh they to have their little disclaimer that its of for picture clarity...lol) No they are off because they are DANGEROUS. but that is my opinion and i dont expect anyone here to believe it anyeway:)

Redwood,

I hear what you are saying. I think on the forum people are about “saying the right thing” especially on tablesaw safety.

I am sure a lot of us have done something which is labelled as “unsafe”. I know I have done more than once. We just don’t say it loud here. I mean honestly, how many of you have used a TS without a blade guide or a splitter or a push stick.

C’mon guys know what I am talking about.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wongo

Redwood,

I hear what you are saying. I think on the forum people are about “saying the right thing” especially on tablesaw safety.

I am sure a lot of us have done something which is labelled as “unsafe”. I know I have done more than once. We just don’t say it loud here. I mean honestly, how many of you have used a TS without a blade guide or a splitter or a push stick.

C’mon guys know what I am talking about.

---

thing is wongo i believe very firmly that a guard is dangerous. How many times have forum members recomended 2 push sticks to rip small items with the guard down over the blade? now i dont care what any one says to me, but even for a novice that is far more dangerous than doing it with one good dedicated push stick (not the plastic crap that comes with a saw) and the guarde off and the gullet of the blade just clearing the timber and having a clear clean access to safley guide it through. I still dont understand why guards are so called safe. except if you trip and whack your hand or head on it i see no reason for it. Their are a multitude of unsafe practices posted here in the forum quiet often. and 2 push sticks are one of them, but no one even questions that. this forum is for the beginers to the advanced, i made the note that beginers should be aware, and so they should, but they also need to know some pitfalls, and trying to manouver pieces behind a guard with 2 push sticks is something that beginers should not attempt at all. but people recomend it to them. to me that is irresposible

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by redwood

Simple way to stop the guard getting in the way.... throw it in the bin.

---

Have to agree with you there. Also, I don't really have a "red zone" but I do have a VERY healthy respect for a fast-spinning blade. I'm always aware of what I'm doing with my hands and I don't believe I become blazé. Hell, I won't even turn on a tool if I feel tired. On those occasions, that's a shed clean-up day.

The point is that there are generalisations but each one of us has to feel comfortable with the way we do things. It is unlikely that any two will be exactly the same. Wongo has a vaild point about confidence. When I got really serious 10 years ago, I guess I was a lot more tentative than I am now. I think the most reinforcing aspect at the time was that a friend of mine who's a chippy had two and a half fingers missing on one hand and one on the other!! Those sort of mental images tend to have a lasting impact.

My Dad (40 yrs around saws, woodwork teacher, handyman carpenter, built 5 houses etc) uses the 10mm red zone. I always cringed. So did he when the blade got him - now the index finger on his left hand is, well, a bit more than 10mm shorter than it should be. Any closer than 150mm for 'normal' cutting OMHO is unnecessary and dumb.

BTW have a look at Sam Maloof's saw habits. He's been doing this for 40 yrs and I don't know how he's still got hands.:eek:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TassieKiwi

BTW have a look at Sam Maloof's saw habits. He's been doing this for 40 yrs and I don't know how he's still got hands.:eek:

---

Exactly what is was going to say. If these things bother you so much then you wouldn’t want to see how Sam Maloof, Tage Frig, Frank Klausz and other regulars from FWW use their bandsaw and tablesaw. Because you might have a heart attack.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wongo

Exactly what is was going to say. If these things bother you so much then you wouldn’t want to see how Sam Maloof, Tage Frig, Frank Klausz and other regulars from FWW use their bandsaw and tablesaw. Because you might have a heart attack.

---

Sam Maloof cutting freehand on a bandsaw- even im not that stupid:eek: :D

If I was to make a chair like his I would probably do the same. And if I cut a finger off, I won’t blame him either. Stupid or not it is my own risk. I'm big enough of a man to make that decision.

I recall in an article on Maloof that he did not recommend that people use the bandsaw the way he did - he said it was dangerous! My memory of the articale is a bit hazy, but I think Maloof also pointed out that he had broken his hand a number of times when the blade grabbed the timber and slammed it down on the table. Still he made very nice chairs - and incredibly quickly.

Chris

Everyones got their own way of using a table saw. What it comes down to is knowledge and risk. In relation to knowledge there are good books and web sites that have been mentioned (this being one). In relation to risk, it comes down to each individuals propensity to accept risk and for taking risks. On this:

• Men have a much higher propensity for risk than women;
• Propensity for risk amongst men is inversely related to age (a very interesting point);
• Overall risk propensity is directly proportional to openness and inversely proportional to neuroticism and agreeableness; &
• when looking at how 'professionals' use machinery, keep in mind that propensity for safety risk is highly influenced by financial risks...

Now, looking at peoples age and their habits.......:D

Eastie,

Good reply. I would like to add one more.

Men who got balls are more willing to take risk.:D :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Eastie

Overall risk propensity is directly proportional to openness and inversely proportional to neuroticism and agreeableness

---

Eastie couldnt agree more. infact i have a sign on the wall in my shed that has those exact same words and i look at it every day;)

Sorry if that was a bit blunt Redwood, your point is taken that you're not specifcally recommending your way to people.

The guard gives a level of psychological separation from the blade. This has both positive and negative points:

Good - it makes the user less afraid of the tool allowign them to concentrate on what they're doing.

Bad - It can create false confidence that the guard is going to protect them from every risk.

It surprises me that no one has redesigned the a tabel saw with integral push blocks, feather boards etc running in slots. Surely there is a way to provide force to a board in a certain direction without directly using your hands.....

Quote:

---

Surely there is a way to provide force to a board in a certain direction without directly using your hands.

---

Yes, it's called a power feeder.

I disagree that guards are always dangerous. I agree that they can make certain tasks more dangerous though - particularly in the case you mention where someone attempts to use a push stick that wont fit between the fence and the guard.

The best way of cutting thin strips is to cut them from a much wider board. You set the fence so that the strip you want is the offcut, allowing you plenty of room between the fence and the blade. This is not always possible though.

In that situation, I have a push stick that is 10mm thick and about 90mm x 250mm in size with a notch cut out of the bottom creating a hook about 5mm deep and 25mm long. I remove the guard, wind the blade down low and fit a zero clearance insert with a splitter attached. The push stick sits over whatever you are ripping, allowing you to hold it down and against the fence and the hook allows you to push the stock through.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LineLefty

It surprises me that no one has redesigned the a tabel saw with integral push blocks, feather boards etc running in slots. Surely there is a way to provide force to a board in a certain direction without directly using your hands.....

---

Adam I hate to give you the same old crap argument but I use it anyway.

“Statistically you are more likely to be hurt by sitting in a car then using a tablesaw”

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by silentC

Yes, it's called a power feeder.


The best way of cutting thin strips is to cut them from a much wider board. You set the fence so that the strip you want is the offcut, allowing you plenty of room between the fence and the blade. This is not always possible though.
In that situation, I have a push stick that is 10mm thick and about 90mm x 250mm in size with a notch cut out of the bottom creating a hook about 5mm deep and 25mm long. I remove the guard, wind the blade down low and fit a zero clearance insert with a splitter attached. The push stick sits over whatever you are ripping, allowing you to hold it down and against the fence and the hook allows you to push the stock through.

---

Silent i dont have an opinion on saw saftey, but ill tell you about my little way of ripping strips.

I have a board thats 125 wide (marine ply) with an end (similar to a breadboard end) that i screw on, overhanging 5 or so mill. I set the fence at 125 + the strip thickness. Then i place the board to be ripped againsed it and safley push it through. My hands are 125mm away from the blade, and when the strip is cut i just repeat, repeat and repeat. All the strips are the same thickness, fence dosnt have to be moved and no hand is nearer than125 from the blade:)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lignum

Silent i dont have an opinion on saw saftey, but ill tell you about my little way of ripping strips.

I have a board thats 125 wide (marine ply) with an end (similar to a breadboard end) that i screw on, overhanging 5 or so mill. I set the fence at 125 + the strip thickness. Then i place the board to be ripped againsed it and safley push it through. My hands are 125mm away from the blade, and when the strip is cut i just repeat, repeat and repeat. All the strips are the same thickness, fence dosnt have to be moved and no hand is nearer than125 from the blade:)

---

Good idea. One to file away for the next time I'm ripping ultra thin strips. :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wongo

Eastie,

Good reply. I would like to add one more.

Men who got balls are more willing to take risk.:D :D

---

Man who's had balls flattened by kick back becomes very risk averse :D

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lignum

Silent i dont have an opinion on saw saftey, but ill tell you about my little way of ripping strips.

I have a board thats 125 wide (marine ply) with an end (similar to a breadboard end) that i screw on, overhanging 5 or so mill. I set the fence at 125 + the strip thickness. Then i place the board to be ripped againsed it and safley push it through. My hands are 125mm away from the blade, and when the strip is cut i just repeat, repeat and repeat. All the strips are the same thickness, fence dosnt have to be moved and no hand is nearer than125 from the blade:)

---

Nice one Lignum, duly noted and filed!

Rats! I was going to send a Greenie, but have to do some manure spreading first :eek: :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Auld Bassoon

Nice one Lignum, duly noted and filed!

Rats! I was going to send a Greenie, but have to do some manure spreading first :eek: :)

---

Love to take credit but carnt:) I read it in the tips section of FFW about ten years ago and it stuck in my mind. the best part is you can repeat even 1 or 2mm strips constantly with accurate ease:)

I tend to go with your scenario one- as you can apply pressure on stock to the fence- I always look at the fence and the timber in relation to the fence when feedin through. Use a push pad or stick if you feel uncomfortable getting your hands too close and make sure your blade has a guard and riving knife. A sliding table negates having to push stock.
Be comfortable in your stance and go slowly. If you are unhappy about anything, don't do it- it is probably wrong for you.
By feeding sheet material as per scenario 1, you can comfortably cut a 8x4 sheet on your own.
cheers rosethorn

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Lignum

Love to take credit but carnt:) I read it in the tips section of FFW about ten years ago and it stuck in my mind. the best part is you can repeat even 1 or 2mm strips constantly with accurate ease:)

---

Yes, I've seen that tip somewhere before - maybe in a book I've got. Haven't had the need to cut lots of thin strips yet but will keep it in mind for when I do.

Hi there,
I know we started talking about the feeding operation, so we're slightly hijacking it onto guards!
I understand what Redwood's saying regarding guards, but I still wouldn't remove one permanently. If anything, they give the impression you could fall onto the machine and not get cut in half! :D My small saw at home is a Durden Junior Joiner, with a guard that rises in a slot on the riving knife...not satisfactory, as its not always easy to get to rise when you push the timber through. This means you have to take one hand off the timber and pull the guard up, and obviously expose yourself to the blade. The sliding table saw at work I fitted with an expensive aftermarket guard, with built in dust extraction. Its mounted well off-board, so no problems fitting sheet material through. But the actual perspex guard thing is supposed to move up and down through levers and counterweights when timber enters, but not always easily, esp. if only one side of it is contacted by the workpiece (ie. when taking a small offcut). If the fence is to be pushed close to the blade, you have to raise the guard up by hand and drop it onto the fence, thereby rendering the guard useless as most of the blade is exposed!:confused: I think there is lots of opportunity to develop one that really does what its meant too.

Just one thing though:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by redwood

Sam Maloof cutting freehand on a bandsaw

---

Surely you mean freehanding through a tablesaw being risky, as bandsaws come into their own when freehand cutting of curves! I think I might have tried a freehand cut once on a tablesaw when I first set out on this journey, and never again! Its one of those things that as soon as you start you wish you hadn't, but no way to stop...impossible to take one hand off the work and blindly reach for the stop button. Knee buttons should be fitted on all machines, but they can get knocked accidentally.

Cheers,

Quote:

---

Surely you mean freehanding through a tablesaw being risky, as bandsaws come into their own when freehand cutting of curves!

---

I had the idea that he was cutting with the item up off the table for some reason. There was a remark about him having broken his hand when the blade grabbed the wood and slammed it down into the table. Maybe I have that wrong but that's the mental picture I have.

I have a Taunton DVD of Sam Maloof - well worth a look. The joints for the leg-seat are masterful.
This man's fliuidity of motion when cutting on the bandsaw and tablesaw is both alarming and inspiring at the same time. He draws chinagraph lines on the workpiece, and goes for it freeform on the bandsaw. The workpiece is sometimes suspended by it's end, a foot or more away from the blade, with 2-3" of air under the piece at the blade. Sort of carving with the blade.
The 12" tablesaw has no guard or dust extraction (I think). He ripped 5 pieces of walnut for the seat of a rocker in seconds. No push sticks for this bloke, mate. Reaching over the blade and all, standing behind - astonishing. He makes 60-70 pieces a year. BTW his rockers change hands for over $US150K. Bloody amazing woodworker, quick, efficient, but I couldnt make myself do it quite like that.

I forgot - check these out Lefty - they may answer all of your worries about ripping. I really like using them, they feel really safe and secure.

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...080,51225&ap=1

Well that's another matter altogether!:eek: I sometimes cut a curved portion of carving that is above the table of the bandsaw, but part of the work is actually on the table. Risky perhaps although under control with a firm hand, and effective too. I have had one or too grab, but not taken completely out of my hands...not something I'd show students;) I assume this is the process Mr Maloof was referring to.

Cheers,

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by TassieKiwi

I forgot - check these out Lefty - they may answer all of your worries about ripping. I really like using them, they feel really safe and secure.

[/URL]

---

I've been umming and ahhing about getting some of these things for a while.

I can't quite convince myself that I need them though. I don't do a lot of ripping of thin pieces and it seems to me that Lignum's tip would be just as safe a way to do it as using grr-rippers.

I know that the people who have them rave about them though.

I'm prepared to be swayed but I think that for normal ripping I'd end up not using them.

Thanks TassieKiwi,

I know all about the GRR-Ripper, I've read the website, forum posts etc. IT does seem like a real winner, however beginners like myself like the psychological separation form the blade that a guard achieves. I'm not comfortable with and unguarded blade. YES I know it's safer with a GRR-Ripper or two and in the long run they're probably the best bet.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Andy Mac

Surely you mean freehanding through a tablesaw being risky, as bandsaws come into their own when freehand cutting of curves! I think I might have tried a freehand cut once on a tablesaw when I first set out on this journey, and never again! Its one of those things that as soon as you start you wish you hadn't, but no way to stop...impossible to take one hand off the work and blindly reach for the stop button. Knee buttons should be fitted on all machines, but they can get knocked accidentally.

Cheers,

---

Andy i wont mention that i occasionaly freehand cut on the table saw as i dont want to give a bad impression, but when i mentioned Sam maloof cutting freehand on a band saw im not sure if you have seen him do it or not. But out of all the silly things we get upto in a workshop iv never seen anything to beat sam and his bandsawing. He will hold a piece of say 1000 x 150 x 50 in both hands with one completly OFF the table and saw curves in all directions and angles. As was mentioned above he has broken his hand on numerous occasions but still continues to do it. :eek: :eek: :eek: I just pray he never qualifies for a Darwin Award:o

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by redwood

He will hold a piece of say 1000 x 150 x 50 in both hands with one completly OFF the table and saw curves in all directions and angles.

---

Hi Redwood,
No I haven't seen any video of him at all, but know his work well (beautiful stuff), but from what you say I'm speechless and don't know if I could sit still long enough to watch:eek: ! I can't quite wrap my tiny brain around that process, or even why you'd try!! Cutting across round logs is enough of a thrill for me, with them on the deck...

Cheers,