Where did share holding come in to it? You're their customer. Council has nothing to do with water supply; they don't manage the infrastructure or collect payment for it.
Printable View
Where did share holding come in to it? You're their customer. Council has nothing to do with water supply; they don't manage the infrastructure or collect payment for it.
Councils have the obligation to inform residents because it is an emergency, a collective HEALTH emergency when people get poisoned.Quote:
Originally Posted by elanjacobs
We are not talking about a "faulty" private service offering but an health emergency.
The panic will blow over. People bought toilet paper here, then the government lied about it and said that diarrhea/cha chas wasn't a symptom. I had the trots awful in early march (plenty of TP here), but unlike most folks, I think I had the trots for a few days, not covid.Quote:
Originally Posted by allfix
After about a month of toilet paper buying, people got tired of buying toilet paper.
After about a month of panic about all of the different places one could get covid, people realized the mail people weren't getting sick and the meat packing plants where covid was spreading, the average case was more mild and there were more asymptomatic people in those places.....the panic is pretty much over here except for the OCD folks.
Now it's something to face.
The supposed first person here in the states to get a second different mutation than the first had a tough road first go around and is asymptomatic the second, and the panic about antibodies not lasting has given way to the idea that the T cells remember it and it won't be the antibodies.
That's good news.
For folks who want a magic fix and a guarantee they'll never get it....well, good luck with that. There is good to do at your doorstep every day. don't let negativity kick in and eat you up - the local news stations will love the opportunity to latch on to that tit and feed you all you want as long as you watch ads. It's not that easy to pass from person to person unless you're sitting in an enclosed space with someone who has it. Minimize that and not much happens.
We found that the person (first person we know now) who got COVID is someone at our pool (private pool) who has flouted the rules from day one. When we were shut down, they were arranging play dates for their kids, and their kids have been full on with any activities they could find the whole time. It's only a matter of time. That person is a teacher - they couldn't shut down their behavior for two weeks before school started and now potentially will have spread to kids.
School here was one day in person, split into four different days (25% of the class each day) to get the kids initiated with the digital equipment they'll be using at home. Selfish teacher, but that's reality. We're human.
And that is why we have rules and institutions which are financially maintained by the community to protect us and to prevent illegal activities.Quote:
Originally Posted by D.W.
You might now know that Police used to give security licenses for long time (years?) to migrants all coming from a specific country who supplied false declarations and who worked at the hotels (for example) where they had to secure the quarantined area.
Some of these illegal migrants and scammers had sex with the same people they were securing, the same security went out and bought groceries then they went back in the hotels.
These security went to their homes and their families were free to go around.
These security scammers were never tested for Covid by falsifying documents (again) and declaring that they had the test.
Well, many people went to hospitals with Covid symptoms and the authorities restricted the areas were these people came from and did the Covid tests to the security scammers, many of them were found positive!
Now there are investigations going on and that won't fix anything because the damage has been done.
Years ago we had a scandal at the immigration department where the very top boss was investigated for corruption by facilitating migrants from a "specific" country (again) to illegally get visas and settle in Australia, the same people have gained monopoly in the security field, I can't say the country because blind people would label me racist but it's a fact that only people from ONE country work as security in Melbourne, well I believe at least 95% of them so I don't see multiculturalism.
And I can't feel relaxed nor safe because our incompetent politicians are telling too many lies about the Covid vaccine, they pretend that the community test trial (they don't say the word) something that doesn't even exist, they are even spreading rumors that the vaccine might be compulsory!
Russia has already a functional vaccine and it has beer registered to the world health organisation, many countries all around the world are making orders at exception of countries friendly with the US including Australia (of course) so I didn't ear a single word coming out of our incompetent (and bribed) politicians' mouths about this vaccine but only the one from Oxford.
The problem is that everything is always run but greed and personal interests and gains, we are experiencing a world pandemic situation while our politicians keep on profiting at our expenses, how could I see a good future?
1) The Russian vaccine HAS NOT been through all the required trials, HAS NOT been approved with WHO and no one has seen the data from any trials it has been through, so the claim that it's functional is dubious at best if not outright garbage.
2) Vaccines are basically compulsory here in general already. If your kids aren't vaccinated, they can't be enrolled in kindergarten or daycare.
3) The Oxford vaccine is not the only one being talked about (if you followed the news, you would have heard that we are doing local research as well), but the gov't has signed a deal with the UK to get access should they come up with something that works.
You obviously have an axe to grind, but I suggest you get things right if you're going to go on a rant about them.
Concerns me that people don't take this seriously.
5% of people who catch it die.
You can catch it more than once...and again and again and again.
I'm beginning to feel there is a certain percentage of the population that doesn't care about the impact they have on others.
Perhaps it is time to take sterner measures. Focus their minds on the implications....
One dude in Melbourne has been fined 24 times for breaching restrictions.
How is this not treason?
Be careful about what you believe regarding this or that vaccine from Russia. We had vaccines for covid here less than two weeks after there was official recognition. In my city health system (the one that developed the polio vaccine), they already had a sars sugar needle (sort of like velcro - the tips of the vaccine patch are absorbed in the skin) vaccine that took about two weeks to adapt into a covid vaccine making viable antibodies in mice.
What's less certain is everything else that goes along with the vaccine then. no clue if they ever got human trials, but there is a huge number of vaccines here that make antibodies for covid. It's not a lack of vaccines, it's the follow-up checking that counts:
* does the vaccine make an avenue for another virus easier (for example, some types of flu vaccines have a statistically significant increase in respiratory infections, possibly as much as 4 times. If you are susceptible to respiratory infections, then the vaccine for the flu can be worse for you than no vaccine).
* will the effect be lasting
* will mutation of the virus make it so that any lasting effect isn't useful against mutating strains?
It's easy for china or russia to trot out vaccines and boast about them and give an official message ignoring side effects or complications. If there was a universal viable vaccine without any risk, we'd have it already because someone would be getting wealthy off of it without fear of being sued out of business later if things went sideways with the vaccines.
You can find all kinds of exceptions to the "we're human" thing that aren't really exceptions. Corruption occurs everywhere. It's just a matter of the scale of it. It may be small at the local level like you're describing, but it's human nature. As things shape up here, it doesn't really appear that there's going to be any magic vaccine that really moves the needle any time soon, Russian or otherwise. If there is, then their covid cases will cease, but that hasn't happened. Human nature will continue to be observed.
Fair chance that the societies shutting down completely will just get to experience this later, after lecturing everyone about irresponsibility prior. There is a template to view, though - toilet paper supply, then meat at the super market (people will buy and hoard meet - creating a temporary supply issue), etc. Life will go on after that for most. You can be positive in the meantime and continue to move on, or get stuck in the mud about reality and point fingers. The latter is politics - verisimilitude.
We owe it to ourselves and others to point the needle toward the good, even if all you can scrape up is a little at a time. Turn off the media, go about your business, forget about who is at fault and work within the local environment reasonably - the panic is people ignoring what's going on in their own walls and presuming problems outside of them are more important. It's a cognitive trap that leads to no good.
delete
The news about the Russian vaccine are for real and came from the Russian side.Quote:
Originally Posted by elanjacobs
It doesn't look like a friendly nor a polite language towards people you don't know so from on I'm not going to waste more time with you.
Yeah...and no one else on the planet currently believes them.Quote:
Originally Posted by allfix
I make no apologies for what I said or how I said it, I believe it was completely fair. If you're going to make big claims, expect them to be fact checked. If you can't handle that, maybe don't start a discussion on a controversial topic.
D.W. - it seems worth mentioning that in terms of comparisons to the flu - the numbers are with (perhaps belated and undercooked) but fairly extreme efforts made to contain the virus that are not done each year with the flu. It also kicked off in the US in earnest well after winter.
It obviously has not died down in the summer. Whether or not it goes up in the winter, it is still only about 6 months into the year for the US.
Chris
I don't pretend apologies nor I need any especially from you but you keep on being unfriendly and rude instead of just keeping shut.Quote:
Originally Posted by elanjacobs
This vaccine development has became a political fight between western and eastern countries so that is why I prefer to search information from both sides.
This is a world pandemic and all counties should set aside their political rivalries and goals and work together but from what I understand the outcome of the vaccine is one of the biggest business opportunities we have ever seen in decades so that is why there is a lot of political talking.
I even found news about Russia offering and asking America to work together in the development of the vaccine but the offer was rejected, why?
"On August 11, Russia became the first country in the world to register a coronavirus vaccine named Sputnik V"
Most countries interested in Russia’s coronavirus vaccine despite information war - fund - Russia - TASS
Yes people are interested in learning about the Russian vaccine, but Russia isn't releasing any data, they just expect people to trust them. Given their history of distributing misinformation, it's quite understandable that no one does.
I'd take any article published by Russian state media with a healthy dose of salt for the same reason
and 30 % of the aged or frail or people with underlying health problems will also die.Quote:
Originally Posted by woodPixel
When will they ever learn that it really is a matter of life and death until a vaccine is widely available.
Peter.
I presume you are wearing the famous Ubeaut Foily cap.:UQuote:
Originally Posted by allfix
Peter.
I've been talking about this since December.... there has not been, to my knowledge or research, a vaccine against ANY coronavirus, ever.
Why does the media and politicians STILL talk about it as if its some magic bullet? This is not a dollars-solves-everything problem....
A very quick DDG confirms the fact there IS NO coronavirus-family vaccine. Given that a huge number of people die every year of the cold and flu is absolute proof of this.
MERS and SARS - super lethal. Same virus. ZERO VACCINE.
Pinning our hopes on a magic solution is pure fantasy. The illusion we are being sold is vapourware. It is hope.
e.g. Will There Be a Coronavirus Vaccine? Maybe Not
We need to prepare ourselves for a big change in the way we act as a society, or else 5% of us might pull the pin with concerning regularity.
WPQuote:
Originally Posted by woodPixel
I think the polies are clutching at straws and the media are struggling to sell copy. All we can say for the moment is there is a deal of activity to find some solution, but there are no slam dunks here. We are merely bouncing the ball in the centre of the court hoping an opportunity will present. I was looking up why MERS and SARS stopped. It seems that it was social distancing and public health and eventually it went away. I think it may be equally hopeful to think the same thing will happen with Covid-19.
Sorry to be pessimistic, but I do think it is more pragmatic to be realistic and recognise that for the moment the outcome is an unknown quantity. This is as global deaths have exceeded 846,000 ( compared to Sars and Mers at 812 and 858).
Regards
Paul
I believe that everyday influenza deaths toll added to road deaths caused by drug and alcohol abuse, deaths and diseases caused by the consumption of tobacco, alcohol and prescribed medicinal is far higher than what we are experiencing right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushmiller
And I'm not an expert nor a Doctor but I do believe that the majority of deaths by Corona virus are from aged or fragile people (the majority).
What I can't understand is why there is an emergency now (rightfully) and we're being punished with strong restrictions including a curfew like during a war time and nothing was done before for the above cited diseases?
AllfixQuote:
Originally Posted by allfix
You have raised relevant points.
Part of the problem is that Covid-19 is in addition to those other causes of death, not instead of. Also with distancing etc. etc. it is possible to curtail the outbreak. We are seeing that now in Victoria: Unfortunately the death toll lags the outbreak of cases and right now we see the effect of those early days (of the second wave). These too will diminish but could arguably take a couple of weeks and that assumes no further escalation of cases. I think there are less than 100 per day now, but I have not really been counting other than to hear there are improvements.
There is little we can do regarding the other causes of death. People continue to die on the roads, drug users overdose and alcoholics eventually run out of liver capacity. It is not really relevant to compare to such other life threatening diseases. Influenza is interesting in that deaths from that I believe are down: Social distancing I think is responsible. :)
If people were responsible, and I am not for one moment suggesting you are not a responsible person, we would not need the curfews and the lockdowns. Unfortunately that is not the case as we have seen with people attempting to cross the borders illegally and others leaving their homes for no good reason. This is why there are curfews. I am sure there are no good reasons for any politician implementing such draconian measures unncessarily. It is completely against their own interests.
I have to say I find it reprehensible that the federal government comes down hard on the labour states (Victoria & WA) when the area greatest hit, as you have identified, the elderly and the fragile, are in fact the commonwealth responsibility. I don't think you have to have a Phd in philosophy to see an anomaly there. To my mind the political parties should be bi-partisan in these times. Clearly some politicians are putting their own futures above the well being of the populace. I don't think that Daniel Andrews is one of those. My extended viewpoint of that, and I know this will seem harsh, a little fanciful and idealistic is that if you take public office you should fall on your sword for the greater good. If that is unpalatable, don't put up your hand in the first place. Too many are there for their ego.
Whew! I hadn't intended to get into that.
Regards
Paul
If you mean about politics then in this Covid pandemic you can't avoid talking about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushmiller
I always try my best to avoid talking politics, religion, sport and anything that get people always fighting each other because they don't respect each other's opinions and choices.
I already said in my previous posts what happened with security, police and politicians so I think that that is enough.
I just hope that in September we will be free because I'm tired already of these war style rules.
I feel kind of glad right now that I am "stuck" in a country that never seemed to be flustered by the idea of "do whats best for the many". Can we believe the official numbers? I'm not entirely sure, but at the same time everyone went early into face masks all the time, a lot of offices shut down - wfh - schools closed early, graduations, outdoor events cancelled, etc. Most of it happened with a simple "please" from the government. The fact that Vic, a relatively sparsely populated state outran Tokyo, a super dense city almost equal the entirety of Australias population, suggests something very interesting.
Things are pretty much back to normal here, as far as you'd know, but of course there are no tourists, and everyone continues to wear a mask all the time. It's almost like universal co-operation and thinking of others works or something :wink:
That's probably because the Japanese are notoriously good at following protocols :pQuote:
Originally Posted by q9
Not at all suggesting that that's a bad thing (I actually really like it), but it's the result of hundreds, if not thousands, of years of everyone following strict social norms as a way of life. I doubt you'd find that level of social order anywhere else in the world.
Yep, it's quite something. Nobody here likes it any better than anywhere else, but its more like "well we need to deal with this now."
Apparently there is a law on the books that would have given the government the power to force closures if this was a strain of influenza. But as it is distinct and different from influenza, it doesn't apply and they can't use it. Wild, eh?
So they simply asked everyone to help.
Don't forget that quarantine on incoming people from overseas is also a Commonwealth responsibility, in fact one of the reasons we federated.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushmiller
In this responsibility they failed and left it up to the states to organize for which they were never prepared.
In the rush to contain the virus coming from overseas mistakes were made and the states get blamed whilst it is the Commonwealth fault in failing, as usual, their responsibilities.
Peter.
The thing you keep missing is that this disease is new and has a massive toll on populations that currently are not exposed to such significant death rates - the Melbourne aged care system is a clear demonstration of this. How many hundreds of aged people have to die from careless spreading of the disease? Those people aren't exposed to abnormal / higher than normal risks on the road or for drug / alcohol / tobacco / prescription abuse, those risks still apply at the same rate as last year, but with COVID they clearly are being exposed to risks that they cannot control. That is why restrictions are necessary, to stop actions of others impacting you and your family. I'm not in an at-risk category, but members of my family are, and I'd prefer to have restrictions on me knowing that this reduces the chance of me unknowingly giving the disease to members of other people's family who also may be at significant risk should they fall ill with this disease. These restrictions are for the benefit of everyone... And yes I'm in Sydney and am therefore lucky not to be in a lockdown, and I'm also still in a job, and in a job where I can work remotely and not impact others, but if those restrictions were in place on me I'd be concerned but realise that they are intended for the greater good, even though from my profile alone I am at a lower risk should I get the disease.Quote:
Originally Posted by allfix
Thought this was appropriate :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Sturdee
https://youtu.be/1hc-gwyQS7A
Elan
That video is absolutely pertinent.
I believe it is galling (euphemism on my part so I don't get booted off the Forum) that the federal government is so quick to cast aspersions on individual states when arguably they (the federal government) have committed the greatest travesties in quarantine of persons entering Australia and abysmal failure with the aged care.
A disgrace.
Regards
Paul
Hadn't heard from a friend in Chicago for a while, so checked her FB page, to find that she had died in July from COVID. Older (59) but not old and certainly not fragile. In our last communication in June, she was complaining that her boss wouldn't let her work from home. Apart from that, she had locked down and wore a mask everywhere.
This thing is serious, folks. Don't complain about little inconveniences.
"galling" is not IMO an euphemismQuote:
Originally Posted by Bushmiller
to my mind a very apt description of the Federal government's "responsibility" shifting and the like
No efforts are made in that statement to put covid on equal footing with the flu. If we did the same as we do now, I would guess that we would have fewer respiratory infections and fewer flu cases.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cgcc
Death due to flu is sort of a foreign thing for most of us on the ground. I've lost relatives in their 90s when they got the flu and pneumonia or something and pneumonia, but we don't generally ever consider day to day issues with the flu here other than the misery that it causes, especially when it goes through elementary schools.
Just before covid came this year, there was an influenza outbreak. It went through daughter's school like a sickle mower knocking the kids out. My Mrs. volunteers a day a week in the cafeteria (something they didn't do when I was a kid), which entails helping the very early age kids manage their lunches (opening things, calming kids having meltdowns, etc). In early march, one of the lunch splits (maybe 100 kids at a time) had three kids in the same lunch throw up in their lunch boxes.
That's what we think of the flu. It does kill a lot of people, but not the garden variety 55 year old diabetic who ends up on a ventilator with covid.
That said, I did actually know someone who died during the last swine flu outbreak - it was a girl in her late 20s. She was pregnant, and died with no other conditions or complications (you may recall that outbreak was, for some reason, really hard on pregnant women and didn't seem to have much overall effect otherwise). Since it only happens once, it's a horrible thing but nobody pays much mind to it later "well, yeah, there was ____, but nobody else we know of even got sick".