the $300 might have been an assessment or assumption in a Productivity Commission report on the issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by FenceFurniture
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the $300 might have been an assessment or assumption in a Productivity Commission report on the issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by FenceFurniture
yeah right, it will go very smoothly indeedQuote:
Originally Posted by FenceFurniture
we'll all end up paying double GST.
better get ready to write to Malcolm, your MHR and Senators and don't forget comrade Bill
here hereQuote:
Originally Posted by FenceFurniture
It wasn't really directed at HN, but HN is a different thing altogether. Amazon will kill him and he knows it. Like clockwork for the last 6+ years, about 6-8 weeks out from reporting season he's out there bleating about tough conditions, unfair advantages that competitors have, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by chemfish
Then along comes Amazon which takes away the overheads of retail storefronts...welcome to the future.
Half the problems to do with excessive markups in Australia, particularly on specialist goods, are due to our small market and relative isolation.
A local importer negotiates an exclusive contract with a manufacturer to be the only supplier of the manufacturers goods in Australia. The importer acts as the distributor to the local retailers. The manufacturer won't deal with any other importer and also has in place agreements with their overseas wholesale agents to not supply Australian importers. The local distributor now has a chance of moving the product without having to hold it for an extensive time because he has tied up the whole Australian market, if you want it it has to go through him. The problem with this model from the consumers point of view is that there is another level in the supply chain that needs to make profit out of the goods. By the time the item gets to the consumer the price has gone up to four times what the distributor originally paid for it.
A retailer directly imports some specialist goods, they have only one or two outlets. Because of the combined constraints of our market size and their size they are unable to buy at the best price. On top of that because of their size they end up taking longer to sell the stock. Buying stock and holding stock for extended periods costs money. So relative to bigger markets the price goes up.
Any of the bigger retailers, particularly those with huge advertising budgets, are able to buy at the right price and sell at much bigger margins. I don't know why anybody ever buys anything from Harvey Norman. Take the example of Brand Name beds, lets say Sealy, you can buy the same bed at multiple retailers (yes I know it will have a different model name label on it - but it's the same bed). If you can't get it for 30% less than the price that Harvey Norman wants for it you're not trying.
There seems to be a lot of negative vibe towards Gerry Harvey.
Not sure why, he started with nothing and has worked bloody hard to get to where he is today, this country need more of him. He is a humble man and has helped many a small business get on its feet.
Another thing is that Gerry does not run the retail outlets, they are all franchised of which he gets a margin and rent for their section of his premises. When you go into one of his stores you are dealing with several different small business operators, each section is a different small business.
Yep franchising, another business model that leads to higher prices and often doesn't lead to a good outcome for the franchisee, who incidentally has also worked bloody hard and put a lot of money on the line. Good luck to Gerry Harvey, he's worked hard and smart and made a lot of money. That doesn't mean I have to like the way he's done it any more than I like Wesfarmers or Woolworths. If you're relying on companies like that to do the right thing by you you're highly likely to be disappointed.
Dead simple really, he is a bloody whining whinger. I had a brief chat with him in a store once about 20 years ago, and even then he had a negativity in his conversational tone (and I was complimenting him on something he had done).Quote:
Originally Posted by Beardy
Maybe, but not as many as he sent to the wall.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beardy
Add to that this current situation, and there are a whole bunch of people who have good reason to think -vely of him. After all, he may not have been the only one gunning for these changes, but he was most certainly the highest profile and leading from the front.
Can someone, anyone, tell me how this is a good move for the consumer - how it benefits the consumer even in the most minute way? That is to say - who is out there hankering to pay more, much more, for the same items, AND from a vastly reduced range.
Really the gripes here mainly seem to be about the reduction in choice and access to things that aren't readily available locally (readily available including being at a reasonable markup), paying an extra 10% isn't the issue.
What is the point of imposing a 10% gst if that means you can't actually buy the product anymore? Who is benefiting then?
Mate it is dead simple, we are talking about an Aussie running an Aussie business that employs Aussies.......thousands of them. Tell me how buying from Amazon does anything good for the country apart from giving the mailman a job. Yes the individual consumer buying from a different economy benefits but at a cost to the Australian economyQuote:
Originally Posted by FenceFurniture
Dont get me wrong, I like to get things cheap too and buy online for a saving as well but I don’t begrudge the Aussie retailer trying to make fair living.
This whole drive to add GST to O/S purchases is not about reducing choice in specialised fields like members here are on about, it is about the much broader retail industry that is losing a lot of business to online O/ S purchases.
Whilst everyone likes the prices they get O/S, I bet you would not be so keen on being paid the wages they receive ( or don’t receive) or their pensions, social security or their medical cover
Yeah, but that's the result and you can't expect people to be happy about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beardy
Yes but the HN model of business is no longer relevant. The world has moved on, and there is no use pining for the days of old.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beardy
The fact they didn't make the web work for them will be a case study in the business books of the future.
Sent from my MI 5s using Tapatalk
Hang on a second, one minute you are saying he is undercutting the little bloke and now you are saying he is charging higher prices.Quote:
Originally Posted by aldav
Agree that franchising has made some very rich and some very poor but the same happens with the privateers
I don’t like what the big corporate end of town has done either but that is how things progress. Look at the choice and prices we pay now compared to 30 years ago. We are spoilt for choice and price
This is not all about HN,it is about the whole retail industry and all the jobs that go with it. Gerry is just leading the charge. I am sure he has enough coin to crawl back into his hole and live a good life without working another day if he wanted too.Quote:
Originally Posted by q9
There is much to respond to in Beardy's posts, but I'm hungry, and 4 Corners is about to start. :U
Whether he can or not is not the point. He isn't and he is lobbying to protect a business model that is DOA. He isn't the only one, but he sure has a knack for getting himself in the headlines.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beardy
The retail landscape is going to change irreversibly, like it or not.
Sent from my MI 5s using Tapatalk
I stand to be corrected, but doesn't Gerry live/reside in Singapore, and a part of his enterprise is also based there?Quote:
Originally Posted by Beardy
If that's specifically aimed at my comments I can't see where I accused him of undercutting the little bloke. :? It's more that he's battered him into submission with advertising, and I think I can be pretty confident of peoples general view about advertising. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Beardy
From the point of view of forum members the debate is about the products we will either no longer have access to or that we will have to pay extortionate prices to access. It's not about the 10%. As one of the chief whingers about the current rules Gerry Harvey is fair game in my eyes. It's his business model that is one of the main impediments to Harvey Norman being able to effectively compete with overseas sellers. And lets be clear about it, the products he is mainly talking about are small consumer electronics. He couldn't give a stuff if we lose the ability to buy a specialist piece of kit, either because no overseas source will sell it to us or the price it is available at has gone up by 300% - not 10%.
Deleted as I'm whinging...
Hi,
Talk about winging, this thread does not do too bad.
Not picking on anyone in particular, but hold up a mirror and if the cap fits wear it.
Regards
:oo:
And kee-rist I wish he would! Leave us to purchasing what we want from whom we please.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beardy
This age old argument can be answered very simply: we do NOT buy overseas because of the GST. It's because of choice and the Australia tax. If companies like Makita, Bosch and several others can sell stuff here at prices that make it NOT worthwhile to import, then so can everyone else - it's as simple as that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beardy
YES IT IS!!!! It's all about reducing the range down to what lazy Harvey has available! I'll bet he whinges about Kogan too!Quote:
Originally Posted by Beardy
To be dead clear - I don't mind paying 10% GST on imports. It's not about avoiding that - it's about choices and the Australia Tax. But the way this has been set up is to make it so hard for overseas retailers that we will have no choice but to buy from Harvey - he thinks. He is just hiding behind the GST as an excuse - as I said before it's no benefit to him. If it was otherwise then it would have been much simpler to just lower the $1000 threshold to $300 (or whatever) and collect the tax at the border. The argument against that is that there will will be enormous piles of packages delayed waiting for GST payments to be made.
Well use some of the extra revenue to put on extra staff......
I have a question for you Beardy (to which I would really like an answer): Using beer as an example, should I purchase locally made beer (albeit by a multinational in many instances) or is it just as ok for me to purchase imported beer? This relates directly to your "an Aussie running an Aussie business that employs Aussies" statement. Which is the preferable purchase?
Drink whatever beer you like, my preference is imported beer and I drive an imported car. Probably most of what I buy is imported my boots are Aussie made though. They are all purchased locally from a retailer providing Aussie jobs and paying taxes.Quote:
Originally Posted by FenceFurniture
The whole issue with the likes of Amazon is the Aussie economy misses out. The government does not receive enough revenue to support our current lifestyle so they are trying to seal off the gaps where $ leaves the country
I agree with you about the loss of choice being bad but I would think that was just a result of being caught in the net of the main issue. No doubt there will be a fix to bypass the problem like drop shipping.
Most people are buying this way to save money though, lots of people select product and try on for size in a bricks and mortar store and then purchase O/S on line
What about a scenario where an Australian resident has an income stream in the US being paid into a US bank account. The income is declared in Aus and as per tax treaties is included in the persons Australian income stream and taxed at the prevailing marginal tax rate. So tax is being paid on money created outside of Australia and not part of the Australian economy. If that money is brought on shore as a financial instrument no further tax is payable. If some of that money is converted into goods overseas and now brought into Australia a new additional tax of 10% is being added to bring it onshore. This is somewhat different to sending money earnt and paid in Australia offshore to buy goods.
Don't get me wrong, I'm a regular OS buyer but the more I think about it the more it appears that the real reason we are in this situation is the cost of transport is far too cheap.
If we factored in the real (long term) cost of burning hydrocarbons to transport a $1 plastic widget halfway around the planet the cost would be prohibitive. This has been deliberately engineered on the pretence of efficiency but its another way of making MONEY today and shifting the real cost of doing this to future generations
Its the same reason why milk from Vic is cheaper than WA grown milk etc. This should not be the case - it should be MORE expensive, not less, to do this. We should not be able to import European Mineral water or tinned tomatoes cheaper than we can grown them here.
When sea levels rise and we have to move every one on the world's major ports and most of its cities, then perhaps people will take notice and buy locally. Long term it would make us more independent, more inventive, and restrict physical trade to high value items that smaller communities cannot manufacture.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beardy
These statements are at odds with each other. You are effectively saying that it's ok to import items into Australia as long as they are retailed here. That means that only the last part of the whole economic chain of events occurs within Australia. If you were really committed to your Aussie, Aussie, Aussie statement above then you would be purchasing only Australian manufactured goods. I'm no economist but I strongly suspect that the manufacture puts more stimulus into the economy than the mere selling of an item because manufacturing has a whole bunch of follow on effects.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beardy
In short, you are cherry picking to suit your answers and arguments.
With reference to my question about imported or local beer consumption: those who insist that we buy local product cannot possibly say that we should also be exporting the same product. It would be massively hypocritical to do so. The country to which it is exported faces the same dilemma, does it not? So by arguing that we should buy local but also export, those people are saying that we are a special case, that can have it both ways, and that is total bollocks!
Where do we draw the line on Tribalism? At the neighbourhood boundary? At the Suburb? At the State? At the Country border? What's the difference when we are all citizens of the world, and partaking in the world economy?
Well I don't think that is strictly the case at all. If I can save $40 on an item that is $100 locally then that is $40 more that I have to spend locally, as the case may be. (it does not necessarily follow that I will spend the savings overseas as well - in my budget it is very unlikely % wise). In that example, I have paid $60 for the item, and let's say it has 5% Import Duty associated with it, and the postage is say $8.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beardy
I would then have to pay (upon arrival)
$3 for 5% ID, and
$7.10 GST (on price + ID + freight cost)
which is a total surcharge of $10.10
meaning my item has cost me $78.10.
That means I have still saved $22* (22%) that I now have to spend on something else, and that is most likely to be a local spend. It also means that the Govt has received $10.10 or 14.8% of my pre-tax spend ($68) which I think is a pretty good earner for the Govt.
I'm happy with that, just don't take away my choices, or force me to pay hideous Australia Tax.
* Actually the savings would be more like $30 because I didn't allow for postage in the local purchase.
Furthermore - the bloody package will probably get to me quicker from the USA than it will from Melbourne!!
The biggest problem with the current implementation is the actual collecting of the tax on goods <$1000. Remember all the angst back in 1999 when everyone realised that were to become Tax Collectors for the Govt? Well now they are trying to force overseas businesses to do EXACTLY the same thing. What motive do those businesses have to satisfy our miserable little market?
Something that nobody (Govt included) seems to have addressed is Import Duty. Is it also payable on <$1000 purchases? Presumably it must be, and perhaps the Govt and Harvey thing that all the overseas retailers are going to go through the unbelievable pain of determining what ID is applicable.
Anyone who has had to do it will well and truly understand what I mean. It's a bloody nightmare.
You can trust me - those businesses would laugh at the thought. So that means that either
1. the Govt is prepared to forego the Import Duty, which is very significant income - probably 25-30% of the GST revenue and so not to be sneezed at,
or
2. that they expect the o'seas retailers to collect it :no: (just ain't gonna happen),
or
3. Import Duty will have to be collected at the border, so they may as well just collect the GST that way too and free up this whole disaster in the making.
Whichever way this is diced, it has been made a complete hash of, just to satisfy the King of Whingers.
Well...talk about gouging...have a go at their woodturning tool prices vs. US prices. They would be delighted with this. Talk about a monopoly. I have not bothered to look at general items. But no Amazon for me. I am thinking that the GST costs may still be worth it. Drillit.
I can't recall seeing this covered anywhere.
If the retailers sells less than $75k pa to Australia then they don't have to register for GST. I imagine that would be a helluva lot of businesses. So how is the GST collected for purchases from those retailers? Not at all? At the border?
Not at all -- I think
Never thought I’d see people singing Gerry Harvey’s praises, is that you Gerry?
Yeah he employs a lot of people under his franchises but he’ll wind up those franchises and leave them jobless in a moments notice if it suits him. Do a bit of reading and tell me he’s a man of the people.
https://www.afr.com/business/retail/...0161107-gsjz44
We are talking about purchasing not manufacturing. Manufacturing is already dead in this country, my reference relates to at least giving the locals a drink where practical at the retail end. The manufacturing stimulus for this country has already gone. I don’t insist on buying local product as I have said before, I buy whatever I prefer at a price point I am happy with. I just don’t like it when people look at local to O/S pricing and think that someone here is making a killing from it, retail in Australia is tough to make a living.Quote:
Originally Posted by FenceFurniture
I am am not going to continue banging on about it but my points in this discussion were
- local retailers are not ripping us off, they are operating under different circumstances to other world economies so you cannot do a direct comparison to what you can buy for from other countries. Likewise there are plenty of countries that make our prices look like bargains for the same product.
-supporting local retailers where possible ( including the likes of HN) has a positive impact on our economy
- purchasing on line from O/S supports the purchaser only and yes I still buy bits and pieces this way as well
There's a pay wall on that.Quote:
Originally Posted by bueller
And the 20th Century Bricks & Mortar retail model is following suit (around the world). Those that survive will be those that best adapt - that will not include Harvey. I forget how long it took him to establish an online presence, but he'd well and truly missed the boat. He needs more people like Kogan kicking his butt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beardy
Yes, so do I - they just happen to be selling different stuff that I purchase with the $30 I saved. It doesn't matter what the "stuff" is, as long as money is spent within the Australian economy (but again, that goes back to where do we draw the Tribalism line?).Quote:
Originally Posted by Beardy
In general, I would agree with you and it is not all retailers by any stretch, but unfortunately there are some who bring in specialist gear with agreements that retailers from other countries are not allowed to sell to us. They then take that as an excuse to charge whatever they like, but moan like buggery when we decide to circumvent their excesses.Quote:
Originally Posted by Beardy
You joined the forum a couple of months ago, and so would not have seen the countless discussions about pricing of a particular elite brand in Australia (although perhaps you may have as a lurker). At least every 6 months.
Some accessories are 4x the price here that they are in Europe, and 3x for accessories is very common (I haven't checked prices for a year or two). Not making a killing? Puh-lease! Why do accessories have to be 4x when the tools themselves are a mere 40-100% extra? What's the difference - it's all capital tied up and stuff in warehouses waiting to be sold. As I said before, if Makita, Bosch, et al can sell tools here for a price that makes it not worthwhile for us to import them, then so can everyone else. Yes it will be more, yes there will be GST, but just keep it within reason. My rule of thumb was that it had to be more than 15% cheaper after freight to be worthwhile losing the warranty for, and for non-warrantable items such as accessories it had to be 10% to be bothered (and only at the same time). Saving the 10% GST was just a bonus.
Yep, fair enough, reckon I can draw a line under it too, pending new developments...:DQuote:
Originally Posted by Beardy
The article is locked to prescribers only so could not read it but have a fair idea of how it goes.Quote:
Originally Posted by bueller
I don’t doubt he can be a hard man too, you would have to if you want to survive. I know of one of his franchisees that didn’t see eye to eye with Gerry and didn’t last long but know of many others who have done alright with the alliance as well.
I am not a Gerry lover nor did I say he was a man of the people, you can’t be and be in business. I am just not a fan of the typical tall poppy syndrome knockers who dislike anyone who has become successful or wealthy.
i have worked for some of the wealthiest people in Australia as well as the Aussie battler types as well and I have found the amount of money they have has never been a measure of the person. A-holes are still a-holes whether they are rich ones or poor ones it doesn’t matter.
Infinity lock mitre setup gauges from Infinity in the US - $40AU each or $72 AU the pair (at 75c to the $)
In Australia $69 each or $129 the pair.
Is this a fair mark-up by the OZ retailer or is it gouging?
The retailer stocks a number of Infinity products so these would be included in a shipment.
I don't doubt there's gouging but you can't compare this way as you're assume the Aus Retailer is buying them at the same price as the US retailer and that is rarely the case.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lappa
So you have to look at the Aus retailers buy price.
I can only comment on one case and that is for Stihl chainsaws where Aus retailers pay more for them from Stihl than the RRP in the US.
The US buys about 20x more chainsaws from Stihl than Aus does so the US retailers have a huge advantage.
The average US retailer also sells many more chainsaws per unit time than Aus retailers so they make up for lower RRP by having a a higher turnover.
a quick googleQuote:
Originally Posted by Lappa
At the time of this writing (August 2014), one Australian Dollar buys .92981 US dollars; so a 100,000 AUD salary equates to 92,981 USD.
Having moved last year to Australia from Washington, DC, where I was earning a GS-14/1 salary, I can say from experience that similar income in Australia does not go as far as back home.
Australia is the most expensive country in the G20, and fourth most expensive in the world. Sydney and Melbourne are among the world's ten most expensive cities, on par with London and New York. This partially (although by no means entirely) explains why the average annual salary for Australians is considerably higher than for Americans - appx. $70,300 USD vs. $44,300 USD.
Comparing cost of living across two vast and diverse nations is difficult, but this site does a pretty good job of it. Key indicators:
- Consumer prices in the United States are 32.32% lower than in Australia
- Rent in the United States is 37.08% lower than in Australia
- Groceries in the United States are 24.91% cheaper than in Australia
- Gasoline in the United States is 32.49% cheaper than in Australia
- Basic utilities (such as electricity and water) in the United States are 20.47% cheaper than in Australia
- Internet subscription in the United States is 25.28% cheaper than in Australia (and download speeds are, on average, 75.78% faster in the United States than in Australia)
And my personal gripe...
- Domestic beer in the United States is 42.15% cheaper than in Australia
So Stihl is gouging Aussies as well. Aren’t we the lucky ones :2tsup:Quote:
Originally Posted by BobL
Bow Products Featherpro Featherboard single US$30 ea. on the manufacturers US website - @ 75c exchange rate (which you won't achieve at the moment) equates to A$40. Timbecon normal price $49. After taking account of freight, GST and (maybe?) duty Timbecon would seem to be charging a fair price. So are the Australian retailers of the Infinity Lock Mitre Set-up Gauges gouging? To me the most likely answer is either possibly or probably. The chances of the answer being no would seem to be highly unlikely and yet it's the same Australian retailer selling both products. :? So are some American manufacturers gouging Australian retailers or is it that there is no alternative to the Infinity product and the consumer is therefore fair game???